Getting WHM on Par

WHM are in a good position, but an AST, for example, who solo heals, can still help with the dmg, by giving out group-wide dmg buffs. So why not let WHM\\'s Stoneskin II to be usable in combat and reduce it\\'s CD to 4. That mitigation can help them dish in some dmg around some points of the fight.

So a better version of Adloquium that's also an aoe? No thanks I prefer my sch's to be useful.
Just give whm a boost to healing potency, big heals are kind of their gimmick or lack thereof.

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Originally Posted by Medicine

So a better version of Adloquium that's also an aoe? No thanks I prefer my sch's to be useful.
Just give whm a boost to healing potency, big heals are kind of their gimmick or lack thereof.

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A Stoneskin only gives a 10% shield. So a BRD with 20,000HP can only get a shield worth 2,000HP unlike a succor which is stronger.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

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I did forget that it only went up to 10% of total health but I still don't want whm stepping into sch territory. I do feel that whm does need something but preferably an overhaul or a revamp not a tweaked Stone Skin, ever notice how whm is the only class in the game that doesn't have it's own unique mechanic? SE needs to show whm proper love.

People are forgetting that there'll be a whole battle system revamp, plus 10 more levels worth of skills in a few months. Do you really think they'll make big adjustments now instead of working on the expansion and attempting to fix any major issues there? The current situation is not game breaking.

I wasn't aware the only reason SCH was useful was because of adlo and succor alone.

I wasn't aware stoneskin 2 was such a threat to the SCH throne.

I wasn't aware stoneskin 2 was the only thing separating WHM from SCH.

I also don't remember PLD having any "unique" mechanics either

You said it yourself, the WHM is in a good position. In every mmo patch cycle different classes become more relevant than others. Let 3.4 be the AST era, that is fine. When Im on my WHM i still "outheal" my random co healer in my dutyfinder sophie ex and A9S. True though i cannot compete in terms of dps with a SCH for example.
Most probably there will be changes with new abilities in 4.0 we will see then.
At the moment i consider the WHM the pure healer when paired with the AST or SCH. Lets them concentrate more on dps/buffs. Its when there is two WHM that there might be a decrease on healer dps compared to other pairings. But we are still relevant. I dont think a major change is needed right now, I would wait for 4.0 and do a small tweak meanwhile perhaps, but nothing major.

I like WHM. The one area where I feel I'd like improvement is in some general utility/support - not exactly like AST's card buffs (which I like) but in some other areas. I'm not for a second advocating the same bloated spell list situation we had there, but one of the things I liked about FFXI was that I had lots of things to do in between reactive healing - bar spells, refresh etc - and as great as the Grand DPS Era is, I can live with pressing buttons other than Stone 3/Holy etc from time to time and socketing acc in HW has been an annoying situation all around. I'd love to see a bit more flexibility incorporated without making us into MP-challenged wannabe BLMs whenever healing isn't required.

They can buff healing but in 99% of content it's pointless as healing is almost unnecessary most of the time, and big healing is just overhealing outside of the harshest encounters. Personally WHM is my preferred healer in PVP (because of its options for more aggressive play) while I usually rock up with AST or SCH in group content. I'm glad I have all three.

A 32 year cast time for a 10% shield sure is a threat to scholars. It'd give WHM's something to do to prepare for a phase change, rather than a medica 2 blanket. And if you wanted to use it effectively in the middle of a fight, you'd have to burn swiftcast.

And if you have time to hardcast it in the middle of a fight, it's probably not all that needed in the first place

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Originally Posted by Medicine

So a better version of Adloquium that's also an aoe? No thanks I prefer my sch's to be useful.
Just give whm a boost to healing potency, big heals are kind of their gimmick or lack thereof.

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No no no no, WHM doesn't need a healing potency boost. The one thing they are fine in right now is healing, they do that well.
The problem is that's all they do. They need some kind of utility for themselves. Some kind of identity.

It can't be solved with simple patch fixes though, it requires new skills. New skills that hopefully 4.0 will be giving them.

What they can do this patch though is increase the time or power of Shroud of Saints and reduce the CD on Benediction.

I do hope that if they do release an AoE mitigation tool for WHM it's a new spell or ability in 4.0 and not a modification to the existing Stoneskin II. The intent of Stoneskin II at the time was introduced as a QoL change to allow for raids to setup faster and given to WHM's for free as a QoL. I feel any buffs to Stoneskin II would generate a lot more outcry from the rest of the player base than praise from the WHM players.

[EDIT] Also you're going to need to do more then just make Stoneskin II usable in combat to make "WHM on par". WHM is actually quite viable in its current iteration but there are some glaring flaws in balance logic when you compare the WHM kit to a Diurnal AST kit and additional mitigation isn't the solution to that.

Why not give their cleric stance a trait that converts X% of damage to healing that would give them a nice little niche as side-healers. Hell also make the trait give an accuracy bonus problem fixed.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

Why not give their cleric stance a trait that converts X% of damage to healing that would give them a nice little niche as side-healers.

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I would personally rather not have this. While it would be convenient and save a lot of time, I feel that WHM of all roles shouldn't be side-healers. The current DPS focus is strange enough as it is (and I say this as someone who likes to DPS and speed things up). At the end of the day if we're just going to be DPSers who occasionally throw some regens up and the odd instant cure in between melting faces, I'd rather switch over to another job; it's not what I want from a FF WHM experience.

I'm happy with stoneskin/stoneskin2 as they are, even though actually using the latter in FL is really annoying as someone is always in combat randomly. What I'd personally like as future 4.0 additions is something like haste (note: I'm not saying I want haste specifically). Give all healers something equivalent so nobody gets left behind, but let WHM have some extra tools to make keeping it up easier and more efficient. Oh, and some kind of limited reraise, not because it's essential at all with our current content but simply because not having it feels weird and it would be fun. I like fun.

WHM ain't broke...and if it ain't broke, don't "fix" it XD

Okay okay...what I would like to see is ACC boost for all healers when popping cleric stance.

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I would personally rather not have this. While it would be convenient and save a lot of time, I feel that WHM of all roles shouldn't be side-healers. The current DPS focus is strange enough as it is (and I say this as someone who likes to DPS and speed things up). At the end of the day if we're just going to be DPSers who occasionally throw some regens up and the odd instant cure in between melting faces, I'd rather switch over to another job; it's not what I want from a FF WHM experience.

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it's not farfetched for WHM to DPS even in the old rpgs they would DPS with aero,dia,holy when not healing. The trait would just bring them more on par with SCH who can currently DPS 100% of the time while eos/selene handle the healing. This trait would essentially allow the WHM to do the same. The only reason WHM didn't DPS much in FFXI is that they suffered from MP issues but trust me if MP wasn't a issue they would be DPSing too lol.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

it's not farfetched for WHM to DPS even in the old rpgs they would DPS with aero,dia,holy when not healing.

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Yes, but they do heal as well. I sort of feel as though I don't get to do that all that much in the current design of the game, and that's a shame. Adding even more overpowered heals ironically makes the issue even more obvious. Adding passive healing to cleric stance would just make stepping out of cleric stance even less necessary than it already is; arguably you wouldn't even want to heal so much as boost your DPS through the roof to make your passive healing stronger at some points in the patch cycle. If they want to add a DPS job with passive healing, I think it should be done with a different job.

(If they do it, please make them fix accuracy first. And give us passive refresh or something. Or just make us completely overpowered and then everyone can play WHM and nobody will ever die again.)

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

it's not farfetched for WHM to DPS even in the old rpgs they would DPS with aero,dia,holy when not healing. The trait would just bring them more on par with SCH who can currently DPS 100% of the time while eos/selene handle the healing. This trait would essentially allow the WHM to do the same. The only reason WHM didn't DPS much in FFXI is that they suffered from MP issues but trust me if MP wasn't a issue they would be DPSing too lol.

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I get where you're coming from, and I wouldn't mind WHM taking advantage of their strong dps skills either, but in the end I'm looking for a strong healing experience with WHM. I want skills that solidifies us as a very strong healer, not just an AST without buffs.

And maybe give WHM their iconic re-raise and shell spells, like in every FF games.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I get where you're coming from, and I wouldn't mind WHM taking advantage of their strong dps skills either, but in the end I'm looking for a strong healing experience with WHM. I want skills that solidifies us as a very strong healer, not just an AST without buffs.

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Stronger heals won't make WHM on par with AST nor SCH the main niche of the other two is what pushes them beyond WHM. WHM utility is only AOE stun that's about it. If SE does want WHM to be the "pure" healer then perhaps they should get a DPS pet and make them the reverse SCH lol but that seems a bit weird for WHM or give them some good AOE reliable buffs like haste/bravery but that's going into AST camp. Honestly WHM is in a bit of a pickle the only way I see them being on-par is the cleric stance trait because it's something different and gives WHM an additional niche.

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Originally Posted by Ralts

And maybe give WHM their iconic re-raise and shell spells, like in every FF games.

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Protect already has Shell built in and reraise would break raiding

I would fix their heal over time to be stronger so they can be in cleric stance, similar to a scholar fairy. Or I would repair Holy so it would do damage to a target and heal the target of target at the same time or something. :)

I know that about protect, but they could like make shell like SCH magic mitigation buff; for extreme phases.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Protect already has Shell built in and reraise would break raiding

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Reraise wouldn't break raiding just put it on a long recast "caster only" it'll be the same as your healer bud raising you. Wipe mechanics would still end the raid. And add the same properties of SSII which prevent you from casting during battles.

1.) Reraise
MP: ???
Description: Revives yourself after being K.O. (Cannot be used during combat)
Cast Time: 4s
Recast: 1-3m

And should be easy to add to WHM since all the properties for the spell already exist in POTD with raising pomander.

People will cheese mechanics this way regardless and it'll create a divide where whms will be favored in raids more

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

People will cheese mechanics this way regardless and it'll create a divide where whms will be favored in raids more

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Doubt it, in theory if the WHM was to survive a death mechanic and the MT survived as well the WHM wouldn't have the mana to raise everyone nor heal at the same time. This would only help if the boss was at 1% and somehow the MT survived. If all the tanks are down and your the only one that reraise most likely the trial would reset but let's say it doesn't the boss would hunt you down and you wouldn't have the mana to raise the tank, and even if you do raise the tank you'll most likely be dead by now and the tank would be at low HP leaving him for dead.

SCH DPS would still be favored over Reraise, and AST Cards would still be favored over Reraise. the only thing it would do is give them something a little niche that still wouldn't push them beyond SCH/AST.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

People will cheese mechanics this way regardless and it'll create a divide where whms will be favored in raids more

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It really wouldn't, it would just be a strong tool they have.

SCH can mitigate over 20k damage with a crit Adlo
AST can put up a 10% damage buff on all players for up to 40 seconds, and can extend regens as well.

Both of these jobs have tools that make you feel absolutely powerful and borderline broken.

WHM has nothing close to that. Cure III is ridiculously overvalued. WHM needs a tool that makes people go "wow, that was amazing" like SCH and AST has.

Cure 3 is pretty much worthless unless you play with a static and everybody stands exactly on top of each other. I've never had it hit more than like 2 people. I'm lucky if some of these DF bards are in range of medica 2.

Personally, I'd like to see the duration of Aero 1 and 2 increased drastically. (with a small nerf to its potency per tick) to semi compete with SCHs able to stay in Cleric stance longer.
I wouldnt want them dethroned, so im not sure whats a good number.

But other than that, I find WHM pretty good, and wouldnt exclude one from my raid group.
(on a side note, I do like the sound of a self cast only reraise. Though some changes id make to it, long cast time, recast of at LEAST 10mins, if not 15mins, and a duration of only 5-10mins so you have to go w/o it for a short bit)
AST and SCH still offer more in comparison, but at least RR would be friendly to less skilled players, still learning harder content, and save ur SMN a swift cast rez.

I've been reading these posts about whms and I just don't get it, so I' m gonna just ask:
What exactly is wrong with the white mage?
because it's my main and most prefered job and I don't find anything wrong with it
some people saying it needs a revamp, others that lack an 'Identity'... can you be more specific? I agree that Stoneskin II is useles but i don't agree that Cure III is just for statics. Have you ever used Divine Seal + Cure III + Assize on a full party after an ultimate during a savage raid? an entire party toped in 2 seconds. That's heal power, and in my opinion that's what the whm is all about, that's its Identity: heal power, burst damage and mp control.
I think the dps is the best in dungeons but useless in savage bosses and I think it's ment that way so it can always have the rol of main healer.
That's my opinion

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Originally Posted by FrankSeraph

That's heal power, and in my opinion that's what the whm is all about, that's its Identity: heal power, burst damage and mp control.

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The problem is that whm burst healing is unnecessary. An AST or SCH both have enough tools to cover the burst heal requirements, while a whm has none of the tools for mitigation or large scale raid dps increases.

edit: As far as dps goes, whm hits 2 significant barriers when in prolonged fights. 1 they need to stat accuracy as every single dps skill they have can miss, and 2 they need to slot piety as they have the worst mp recovery of all 3 healers. This means that their healing toolkit is further nerfed by the reliance on stats that don't increase healing throughput at all.

WHM is fine, IMO. It's a no-nonsense healer that is very straightforward with no "gimmicks."

Back in 2.0, the only thing I kept saying is all WHM needs is one other way to get MP back. Lo and Behold, we got Assize (10% MP back) and to be honest, that's all it really "needed." If they wanted to give WHM something, I'd request make Regen's HoT longer and slightly more potent (even though it's already pretty strong for a HoT). That'll make it even more distinct than AST's diurnal aspected benefic and allow them ample time to DPS, much like a SCH's fairy allows them. However, the HoT will need refreshing, unlike a fairy, so it still won't "threaten" the SCH's throne, so to speak.

If you go off DPS checks on SSS, of the three healers, WHM is actually expected to pull the highest numbers and SCH is expected to pull the lowest. SCH has just always been the preferred DPS healer because of said fairy and guaranteed DoTs back before ACC capping was as popular, or expected, in raiding content as well as having an easier time managing their MP. Nowadays, it's not unheard of for a WHM to do the same, but again, most groups will always cater to the SCH DPSing before a WHM.

With AST's buffs, WHM needs some better MP regen. AST easily surpasses WHM in that regard even though WHM is the DPS healer now (ignoring SCH).

All I want is for Benediction to lose it's animation delay and be an actual instant cast, like the description box says. |:

Honestly, I think a better solution would be to make fights require consistent healing. While I am a serious advocate for healers to DPS whenever the fight allows, they shouldn't be spending near the amount of time they do in Cleric Stance. Making all forms of content hit harder allows the three healers to properly differentiate. Want to be a primary healer? Pick White Mage. Want to DPS more heavily and provide support heals/shields? Be a Scholar. Want to be a jack-of-all? Level up Astro. Right now, Savage is the only content where this even remotely comes into play.

See, the evil person in me would strip healers of attack spells, sans maybe one. You know, solo play and questing are still a thing. I'm not unmerciful. One that would be horribly MP draining to use in a fight (think Holy and cost stays a static amount based on MP- similar to black mage spells) and accuracy cannot be melded into healer gear. To make sure people didn't circumvent the accuracy ban, make healer a new Disciple- Disciple of Mending. Then make fights harder to heal that actually require both healers and possibly give them debuffs to apply as a means to give them something to do if there's no major healing needed at that current point.

I'm only slightly evil. I swear it.

I guess you had bad healers.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Personally, I'd like to see the duration of Aero 1 and 2 increased drastically. (with a small nerf to its potency per tick) to semi compete with SCHs able to stay in Cleric stance longer.
I wouldnt want them dethroned, so im not sure whats a good number.

But other than that, I find WHM pretty good, and wouldnt exclude one from my raid group.
(on a side note, I do like the sound of a self cast only reraise. Though some changes id make to it, long cast time, recast of at LEAST 10mins, if not 15mins, and a duration of only 5-10mins so you have to go w/o it for a short bit)
AST and SCH still offer more in comparison, but at least RR would be friendly to less skilled players, still learning harder content, and save ur SMN a swift cast rez.

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The benefit of Aero 2 is that it does a ton of damage in such a short period of time. It does 250 (50 initial + 200 DOT) damage in only 12 seconds.

That's just the thing, Cure III, while it may look pretty, is not necessary.
Let's use your example on ultimates. What's the difference between preshielding and using a Helios/emergency succor and using a cure III to get everyone up? They both amount to the same thing, with the same effort being put into them.

I can see if right after the ultimate happened another huge aoe hit that required everyone to be topped up in literally seconds. But that's not the case.

Now let's look at the case of AST and SCH effects on ultimates. With luck, a SCH can prevent dmg from the ultimate completely. For AST, collective unconscious puts up a potent shield and regen that makes casting Helios unnecessary.
In the case of WHM, I had people flat out die to an ultimate because we had no mitigation for them. It's really sad, I see some WHM throwing down asylum just to pretend they're actually making a difference during Ultimates...

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

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No offense, but that's just bad game design. You're more likely to drive people away from healing entirely than encourage them to play it. Making the content harder, and thus necessitating frequent heals provides a reason they can't DPS. Arbitrarily removing all their DPS abilities on top of that is like dungeons putting up walls to prevent large pulls. It feels entirely artificial.