Nophica - Good for more than Gridanians?

I started my adventuring career as a Conjurer in Gridania who worshiped Nophica. Following this path I later joined the Order of the Twin Adder. So far so good right? Well, I started to develop some gripes.

Compared to the other cities I found Gridania was rather rural and, frankly, quite boring. The Twin Adder motto “Wood’s will be done” seemed trite. High Commander Vorsaile Heuloix, my commanding officer, was dim enough to believe everything that dunce in the Sylph Beast Tribe storyline told him … even the part where “I” wore a chocobo costume.

Then so much of patch 2.55 content centered on the machinations of Ul’dah that, following the climax of that whole sordid affair, I felt a change in loyalties was in order. The Sultana had personally requested I aid Flame General Raubahn Aldynn, who always had my back until the last. So the next time I met up with the Flame General it was not as Serpent Lieutenant but as a Flame Lieutenant.

That said, I was wondering if a change in gods was therefore in order. On the one hand I have little interest in Nald'thal, but worshiping the goddess of a neighboring city-state seemed contradictory. I can use my Fantasia for such but I was thinking of holding onto it just in case sticking to Nophica was acceptable.

I therefore wanted to preface said worship on 3 Elements:

1) Nophica functions as a sort of patron goddess of conjurers considering many of the spells are referenced to her in the Japanese version. This would also work for White Mages and it translates nicely to Paladins worshiping her as they also use conjury magic (my preferred future tank class).

2) It can be argued that Nophica is more than a farmer’s deity considering that her chief rival in the pantheon of the Twelve is none other than Halone herself. You would have to have taken a few levels in badass to be considered the rival of the goddess of war herself.

3) Nophica’s name is also used in Thanalan to refer to some depleted water sources (Nophica’s Wells) so it does not seem that she is a completely foreign deity to Ul’dah.

So what does everyone else think? Is worship of Nophica okay in Ul’dah?

Worshiping any deity in any city-state is acceptable.

Eorzea is much like Hellenic Greece in that it has an array of city-states that fight among each other at times, ally with each other at times, and share a common pantheon. Thus while Nophica is the matron deity of Gridania, Nald'thal the patron deity (deities) of Ul'dah, Llymalaen the matron deity of Limsa, and Rhalgr the (former) patron deity of Ala Mhigo, all the gods have worshipers in all the city-states. It just depends on what you want to pray for.

Whether or not you want to change your personal guardian deity, well... that's another matter. But I'm of the mind that your guardian deity isn't something you "choose" so much as it is the god(dess) who favors you more than the others. (Assuming Eorzean religion isn't just a bunch of malarkey, at any rate.)

As Cilia mentioned, Eorzeans are pretty easy going when it comes to worshiping another member of the Twelve that is not the city's chosen 'guardian' - they consider it more the important thing is that you are worshiping the Twelve period.

And, the irony is, where as the Twelve still seem to be somewhat unseen forces that may or may not exist (although Ferne confirmed a while ago that the Twelve actually are real, but not necessarily in a form that you would expect), it is Hydaelyn who instead seems to be the the very real divine force directly interacting with the player's character (after all, the player's character was given the Echo by Her, She directly intercedes to protect them on more than one occasion (*cough* Ultima *cough cough*), they are told to gather the Crystals of Light by Her, and by the end, the player is even stated as being "Hydaelyn's Champion", making whatever piddly god or goddess of the Twelve they revere somewhat moot.)

Really, your story you have came up with for you character works well so don't feel your character is 'breaking lore' by being a CNJ and moving to Ul'dah, Conjury after all comes from the elementals and not Nophica anyway (and the elementals exist in all nature, not just in the Black Shroud), so even that won't make them 'less potent' ability wise. :)

Adding to Cilia's above comment, it was also not unheard of in the late-BCs/early-ADs for a household to worship gods across entirely different pantheons. You could have a shrine to the Greek Hera, the Roman Janus, and the Egyptian Horus, without being forced to subscribe to one over the other, all based on your personal belief in their respective dominions (or the much more directly observable influence of their followers). Why all that changed is another sad story entirely, but the long and short of it is that, historically, polytheistic religions tended to find much more commonality in diverse belief systems.

Baelsar even points out that the Twelve are technically no more valid than the Primals, not that Twelve worship was ever that big a plot point after Louie did his thing. By that same logic, you could probably get away with RP-worshipping any deity you wanted, wherever you wanted, so long as you don't start amassing aspected crystals for a summoning.

A further addendum, religion in Eorzea is almost never a monolithic institution (barring Ishgard, generally). Even in Ul'dah, Minfilia's Path of the Twelve was able to operate relatively unnoticed because - being focused on the Twelve - they seemed completely unremarkable compared to all the other pockets of not-the-Order-of-Nald'thal and full-blown cults.

Not to mention that Nophica is the patron of all Disciples of the Land and mining is a big part of Ul'dahn culture. Attention paid to the Matron would not be strange in the least.

Worship of Nophica in Ul'dah is fine .. they'll just call you a hippie.

Expanding slightly on the RP aspects of what everyone else said, keep in mind that a patron deity is distinct from the city-state itself which is also distinct from the grand company. Supporting one does not mean supporting either of the others. While Peisistratos once tried to take over Athens by getting a Roegadame to pose as Athena, the city-state and GC leaders are not directly chosen or sanctioned by the patron diety. So it is perfectly sensible to be a follower of Nophica who:

1. Disagrees with Gridanian politics / Kan-E Senna
2. Disagrees with Twin Adder leadership/philosophy
3. Thinks the Immortal Flames need more help given ARR events
4. Wants to support the Sultana
5. Wants to spread the "good sward" where it is needed most

As a follower of Azeyma, I'd probably fit in best in Ul'dah but rather than the harsh sun of the deserts I prefer the nurturing sun of the Gridanian woods.

.. "good sward" was a horrible pun and I feel bad about it

Ah, well I suppose that makes sense. Thanks for the information everyone.

Still, I always wondered why they would make Halone the rival of Nophica. The two are opposites to be sure, except for the Twin Adder poster which depicts Nophica in a more warlike form as opposed to the jubilant farmer with a scythe she is normally portrayed as. Otherwise the goddesses have different territories religion wise - their ideologies should be able to coexist due to such a separation. So why would the Goddess of War feud with the Goddess of Abundance? There seems to be no obvious reason.

Nophica as depicted by the Twin Adder Below (well it is a recruitment poster :rolleyes:)

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/p...png?1467272216


Statue of Halone below here:

http://66.media.tumblr.com/c580fe9b0...clfso1_400.png

I don't think Halone and Nophica *feud* per se. They are rivals because their traits are opposite but they don't necessarily hate each other.

Halone is a goddess of fury and ice. Nophica is a goddess of nurturing and abundance.

If you compare Ishgard and Gridania they are pretty opposite - frozen tundra vs large forests, rigid tiered society vs hunter/gatherers, constantly at war vs trying to exist in harmony. The city states here I think really embody the differences between their patrons. As you get more into the Heavensward story, keep an eye on how those trying to make peace with the dragons (a Nophican approach) are treated in Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by Sagittarian

I don't think Halone and Nophica *feud* per se. They are rivals because their traits are opposite but they don't necessarily hate each other.

Halone is a goddess of fury and ice. Nophica is a goddess of nurturing and abundance.

If you compare Ishgard and Gridania they are pretty opposite - frozen tundra vs large forests, rigid tiered society vs hunter/gatherers, constantly at war vs trying to exist in harmony. The city states here I think really embody the differences between their patrons. As you get more into the Heavensward story, keep an eye on how those trying to make peace with the dragons (a Nophican approach) are treated in Ishgard.

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Well I guess that does make sense. The proximity of the two city-states might lend itself to such a duality.

Dat goddess of fertility though. Althyk grant me strength for I am weak.

The key point to remember is that polytheistic cultures — unlike the monotheistic religions of Islam, Judaism and Christianity — do not have overarching religious texts to bind all the different tenets of the faith under a single, universal message.

For that reason, it's very rare for a person in a polytheistic tradition to worship just one god. As usual, it's useful to refer to real-life polytheistic traditions to gain a better understanding of how such religions work: They tend to be transactional in nature.

Take Taoism, for example. That's the tradition I grew up in. The Chinese don't limit their worship to just one god in the Taoist pantheon, and there are literally hundreds of them. On matters related to hearth and home, the Chinese would pray to the local Tudigong. When it comes to police and justice matters, the Chinese might turn instead to Guandi. And when times are especially harsh, people would seek mercy from Guanyin.

In other words, think of a giant celestial bureaucracy where each god takes charge of a specific portfolio. And when a need arises, a worshiper would pray for divine intervention from the relevant god (along with suitable sacrificial offerings, of course!). So, as you can see, it wouldn't make sense for worshipers to limit themselves to a single god in such traditions.

It's more or less the same for Eorzea. Sailors would pray to Llymlaen for a safe voyage. Farmers might turn to Nophica's blessings for a bountiful harvest. In death, people seek comfort in the knowledge that their souls would rest in Thal's realm.

That said, the Ascians approach faith in an entirely different way. For them, Zodiark is the one true god, and their belief in the Ardor is closer to the transcendental nature of monotheistic religions in the real world. But that, is another story altogether....

Assuming the Twelve don't actually exist, the rivalry may have also just originated between the historical figures Nophica and Halone were based on. Two regular humans were just feuding for whatever reason and that got passed down into their mythology, even though it didn't make much sense given the respective spheres of power of the goddesses based on them.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

That said, the Ascians approach faith in an entirely different way. For them, Zodiark is the one true god, and their belief in the Ardor is closer to the transcendental nature of monotheistic religions in the real world. But that, is another story altogether....

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In some religions, like Shinto, the strength of a god is believed to be directly proportional to the worship they receive. Bear in mind the Scions of the Seventh Dawn essentially go around killing "beast gods" believing their very existence damages Hydaelyn, who serves as our own "one true god." The parallels are pretty bad on our side, too.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

In some religions, like Shinto, the strength of a god is believed to be directly proportional to the worship they receive.

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It's the same for Taoism, actually. The Chinese would flock to temples or shrines where certain gods, or aspects of gods are known to be particularly effective at "answering" prayers. Needless to say, the said temples would grow in prestige and wealth, and this in turn draws even more worshippers, further boosting the gods' "influence".

The key difference to note is that temples and shrines don't have "congregations" the way Westerners understand the word, ie, a group of worshipers who dedicate themselves to "one true god". Rather, as I explained above, the Chinese have a very pragmatic approach to religion: Everything is seen as a transaction. The more one offers to the god or gods, the more one can expect to get in return (and if one gets nothing, well, it's perfectly understandable that one would turn to other gods for help). As far as I know, the Japanese approach Shintoism in much the same way.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Hydaelyn...serves as our own "one true god."

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I'm not too sure about that. It's more accurate to say that the Scions are agnostic. They acknowledge the existence of gods pretty much the way all Eorzeans acknowledge the existence of aether. It's simply a fact of life. And the gods, and their powers, are to be tapped the way they would any other tool (hence Louisoix' plan to use a fraction of the Twelve's power to cage Bahamut).

Moreover, throughout this time, I don't recall any Scion ever praying to Hydaelyn the way they did that fateful day before the Calamity. So, in a sense, they acknowledge Her existence, but that in itself is not remarkable enough to merit "worship", as far as they're concerned. It's more like they understand that Hydaelyn is the very embodiment of their world, and if She dies, so does their star.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Assuming the Twelve don't actually exist.

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And that is the fundamental mystery of Eorzean religion.

To ask if the Twelve exist is very much the same as asking whether God exists in our reality. No one knows. The Scions, like all Eorzeans, simply have faith that They do.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

And that is the fundamental mystery of Eorzean religion.

To ask if the Twelve exist is very much the same as asking whether God exists in our reality. No one knows. The Scions, like all Eorzeans, simply have faith that They do.

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It's actually rather baffling to me that Sharlayans, who are so big on knowledge and learning, hold such faith because the available evidence is not on Twelve Worship's side. You would expect if The Twelve genuinely existed Twelve Worship would be the world-wide religion but it's not, it seems entirely confined to Eorzea and its passing resemblance to other religions, such as Sophia's parallels with Azeyma, only raise more doubts.

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

So what does everyone else think? Is worship of Nophica okay in Ul’dah?

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Like many others have said before, Eorzea is home to many, largely polytheistic cultures. While each city-state may take on one god as their patron or matron deity, worship of the Twelve extends beyond political borders to races, professions, and even birth months. You're more likely to find those that worship multiple, if not all Twelve, at once than you are to find someone who only worships one or none at all.

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

The same can be said regarding religion. Each city-state has a patron (matron) deity, and most people in that city-state will follow the teachings of that god or goddess. There are, for the most part, however, no strict religious codes that must be followed. Some Eorzeans will choose to worship a deity connected to their profession (for example, weavers often follow Nymeia the Spinner). Some follow the deity associated with their nameday. There are even some Eorzeans who choose not to follow the teachings of the Twelve, but they are few and far between...and often will not admit it.

The exception to this rule can be seen in Ishgard, where they take the teachings of Halone very seriously...to the point that the church and state have become inseparable. They go as far as calling those who do not follow the Fury 'unbelievers,' and those who are found to have communicated with the dragons of Dravania (the mortal enemies of Ishgard), are branded as heretics and in some cases executed.

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea pg112

Nophica, tender of soils and goddess of good harvests, is the patron deity of Gridania. While She does not want for devotees in other lands, only in the Twelveswood does one find the curious belief that the elementals are sprung from Her essence. These beings are at once the force of the forest's vitality and its defenders, ever ready to purge invaders from amongst the trees. Their presence is felt most keenly in the everyday life of Gridanians, and many are the festivals and rituals performed in honor of the elementals.

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

3) Nophica’s name is also used in Thanalan to refer to some depleted water sources (Nophica’s Wells) so it does not seem that she is a completely foreign deity to Ul’dah.

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There's actual a bit of interesting text from a very old Reinheart translation about Nophica that specifically talks about Nophica's Wells in Thanalan.

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

ノフィカの井戸について
スレッドの主旨とは少しこと違うのですが、良い機会ですので「ノフィカの井戸」について。
Not related to main topic of the thread but since it's good opportunity here's some info on Nophica's well.

十二神信仰は、地域ごとに差はありますが、基本的に多神教になります。自分の都市の守護神を、特に大切に扱うのが基本ですが、だからと言ってそのほかの神々を信じていない、ということではありません。（例外的に、守護神以外を格下と見る地域もあります）
There are differences in the twelve depending on the region but basically have multi god religion (?) You normally would protect/keep in mind of the guardian related to your city but it doesn't mean they don't believe in other gods. (Some region looks down on other gods)

ザナラーンという乾燥した地域に、忽然と水が湧き出る土地があったことから昔の人々が、「豊穣の女神ノフィカ様が、作物を実らせるために井戸を作ってくれたに違いない！」といった感覚で名付けたのが、例の地名になります。
For a dry region such as Thanalan there was a land that had water and for that reason the people thought that the goddess of harvest Nophica built a well for us so we can grow crops! so that's the reason behind the naming for that region.

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea pg142

Nestled between Hammerlea and Horizon's Edge, Nophica's Wells is a natural basin created by the recent cave-in of a massive network of underground caverns. As a rare source of water in the deserts of Thanalan, the area is lush and verdant, as if blessed by Nophica, the goddess of abundance.

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

So why would the Goddess of War feud with the Goddess of Abundance? There seems to be no obvious reason.

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From the lore book:

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea pg018

Though more open to Her new father's teachings, Halone, too, grew restless, longing to test Her strength.
An opportunity arose when Oschon invited the young goddess on one of His journeys.
It was during these travels that Halone's ambition slowly transformed into a lust for battle.
While on the road, She would challenge every creature She met, honing Her skills and methodically devising new techniques for killing.

When Nophica, mother of the life, learned of Halone's wanton destruction of Her creations,
She was angered beyond words and swore revenge, but the Fury ignored the Matron's challenges, widening the rift between the two.
Oschon, feeling responsible for this rift, devised a plan to calm Nophica.
From within the mountains of His creation, Oschon summoned a fount of magma which spewed forth onto the land.
Upon cooling, the magma took the form of the Twelfth and final god - the dual aspected Nald'thal.
With Nald'thal, Oschon had provided a god to oversee the souls of those who met their deaths and provide them with peace in the afterlife.
Satisfied that Her creations would no longer wander the void aimlessly, Nophica agreed to a truce with Halone.

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Hope this helps! If you're still curious about the various religious beliefs held in Eorzea about the Twelve, I have a rough compilation of religious lore in a post that you might find helpful. It was written well before the lore book though, so there are some missing details, but it does have quite a bit about religion in Ul'dah that you might find helpful for your character's development.

I had no idea about the lore book, it certainly seems chock-full of the backstory I felt was missing from the setting. Thank you! :)

All this information is wonderful actually. In fact, I had not expected the community to be so forthcoming with such details.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Moreover, throughout this time, I don't recall any Scion ever praying to Hydaelyn the way they did that fateful day before the Calamity. So, in a sense, they acknowledge Her existence, but that in itself is not remarkable enough to merit "worship", as far as they're concerned. It's more like they understand that Hydaelyn is the very embodiment of their world, and if She dies, so does their star.

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That is how monotheism works, though. The idea that one particular being is supreme over all others, and even more importantly that said being is responsible for the whole of existence is YHWH in a nutshell, the argument being that if there's something more powerful out there, the things less powerful can't be called "gods" anymore. The only weirdness in FFXIV is that the Ascians acknowledge Zodiark as their one true god, but the word "god" as used by humans refers to beings of a lesser standing to Hydaelyn.

But I'm pretty sure the Ascians have no beef with the Twelve that we've seen, so comparing them to oppressive monotheism isn't exactly fair. If anything, they've spent more time trying to empower lesser gods against Hydaelyn than they have anything else.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

It's actually rather baffling to me that Sharlayans, who are so big on knowledge and learning, hold such faith because the available evidence is not on Twelve Worship's side.

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Faith and science can coexist after all, so it's not actually as baffling as you'd think.

Certainly, while the Enlightenment thinkers and scientists of Europe weren't always the most devout individuals of their era, few of them actively denied the existence of God. To be sure, their faith (as opposed to religious belief) was grounded more on the implicit assumption that God represented a set of values that shaped their culture, history and identity, and therefore much of their ways of thinking and reasoning. For many scientists, then and today, scientific inquiry is a way of getting into the "mind of God", and figuring out the rules He laid down for all Creation.

And beyond Christianity, don't forget that during the Islamic Golden Age, Islam produced some of world's best mathematicians, astronomers, doctors and engineers. We owe a debt to Islam for preserving and expanding on Greek mathematics, especially algebra. The Western world's numeral system descends from Arabic (and hence Islamic) mathematics.

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Now, I most certainly don't want to derail the thread by delving further into sensitive topics like real-world religion. But I'd observe that, with regard to Eorzeans, the Twelve appear to be much more than just "mere" gods, to the extent that despite their knowledge of Hydaelyn's existence, the Scions haven't dropped their belief in the pantheon and everything it stands for.

The gods and goddesses of the Twelve represent all the aspects of life as Eorzeans understand it: Thaliak the thinker; Oschon the explorer; Bryegot the creator; Nymeia the spinner of fate; Althyk who governs time and destiny; Halone and Rhalgr are both associated with war and destruction; while Nophica oversees nature, growth and agriculture, and so on.

So, I guess one way to rationalise the Sharlayans' faith in the Twelve despite their reverence for knowledge (Thaliak being their patron deity) is to appreciate the extent to which the Twelve are about the meaning of life for the five major races (the auri have their own philosophies, I'd presume). Life exists, they are aware of their existence, but what are Eorzeans to do with the life given to them? Well, they pursue all the various activities that civilised peoples do, and the Twelve are synonymous with those activities.

Heh, not sure if I explained that clearly enough. In any case, the bottom line is that having faith in a "higher existence" is not necessarily antagonistic to scientific inquiry. The disjoint between science and religion, faith and reason, is in many ways a modern, Western phenomenon, and plenty of other cultures in the world have no big existential dispute with the dichotomy. So, by extension, I don't see why it would be a problem with Eorzeans in general, and Sharlayans in particular. :)

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Originally Posted by Quor

Dat goddess of fertility though. Althyk grant me strength for I am weak.

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The Matron has not gone unnoticed, a few depictions made by her more fervent worshipers. (sorry if the pic spam is to much)

http://76.72.168.19/images/2013-01-12-552062.jpeg

http://e-shuushuu.net/images/2012-08-07-520483.jpeg

http://i.imgur.com/Od1rCY3.png

http://i.imgur.com/16nJ2IG.jpg