Role Skills a Mistake?

First off, I am not against having a new system in place for cross-class skills. I think locking them into role specific is a mistake.

I think that they should just give jobs the cross-class skills that SE wants that job to have. For example right now pld has stoneskin, I'm guessing stoneskin would be in the healer role and if they wanted pld to have stoneskin they would have to write in an exception.

If they just assign all the skills they want a job to have then it would be easier to maintain. They would never be faced with a situation like "raging strikes is required on this job, but its to overpowered on that job, do we remove it from that role category?" Like when thunder was a cross-class for smn. Another job could have really benefited from it but it was to overpowered for smn to have, so they just replaced it for all jobs.

If they just assigned the skills it would also be easier to scale with future expansions. I think this way would make it a lot easier on the devs to implement, and be easier to modify with future jobs.

Unless some new leaks happened that I don't know of, we have next-to-no knowledge on the new system besides it being split into roles.

It's far too early to speculate on something we know almost nothing about.

While I completely agree with you on stoneskin (and protect - yes I use it in raid sometimes), mananimous is right. We do not have enough information to complain about this yet.

Having said that, I am worried too. PLD is the only job in the game where part of its cross class is completely different to other jobs in its role (all melee dps get DRG, all healers get BLM etc.), and I don't want PLD to suffer from the role system for other jobs benefit. PLD makes up the most important tank cross class skills, so it doesn't gain much from the role system, and losing WHM skills so that other jobs can get PLD skills for 'free' would be a bit of a kick in the teeth (another one).

But anyway, it's too early to speculate, lets just wait and see what happens.

We don't know if there will be any overlap at this point in time.

For example: SMN, SCH, AST, WHM, and BLM all use Swiftcast. Two are DPS, three are healers. It would be safe to assume that it will be an option for all of them, possibly under "DoM Skills". But we have no idea at this point.

PLD could still have access to healer skills.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

But anyway, it's too early to speculate, lets just wait and see what happens.

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Well, if they put Provoke and Convalescence in the "role skill pool", we might get two new skills to replace them...I guess...
But since they're Gladiator skills, they could be replaced by two new Gladiator skills, so probably not something very Conjurer-y.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

PLD makes up the most important tank cross class skills, so it doesn't gain much from the role system, [...]

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Up for speculation. It could well be that PLD actually comes out ahead in this, because where other tanks have to leave desirable skills on the floor due to essential skills like taunt taking up precious slots, PLD can pick more of the "good stuff" since they already have those skills innately. Depends entirely on the execution of the system.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

PLD can pick more of the "good stuff" since they already have those skills innately. Depends entirely on the execution of the system.

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How I understand that system is those skills will not be innate PLD anymore, they'll be in a pool, with skills either available right from the start (But in a limited number depending on your level), or learn by every tank at the same level.

However, if they go as far as to make a special pool where you have to chose your additionnal skills, maybe we'll see more interesting choices. If it's only to make Provoke available, why not simply giving it as a native skill for all tanks with different names ? After all, every healer already has its variation of Raise or Esuna.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

How I understand that system is those skills will not be innate PLD anymore, they'll be in a pool, with skills either available right from the start (But in a limited number depending on your level), or learn by every tank at the same level.

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That's why speculation isn't very fruitful - we have no idea how the system will end up working. It's a possibility that these skills are just taken from the job and put into a pool. It's just as possible they aren't.

If you take these skills from the job however, that also means the traits that improve those skills will have to be scrapped as well, because it's no longer a given that the jobs will have that skill. Many cross-class skills have a trait associated with them to make sure the original job version is better than the crossed one. Moreover, other jobs get abilities at that level as well, so for parity sake, you'd "have" to take some of their skills as well, whether it makes sense or not - or, make new abilities for the job.

It seems a lot harder to work with. But who knows?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Many cross-class skills have a trait associated with them to make sure the original job version is better than the crossed one.

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Like they did with Protect and Stoneskin in 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Moreover, other jobs get abilities at that level as well, so for parity sake, you'd "have" to take some of their skills as well, whether it makes sense or not - or, make new abilities for the job.

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That's why I said PLD might get a good deal there, depending on what skills are considered mandatory. If you remove Provoke and Convalescence, Gladiator could learn brand new skills at level 10 and 22. Likewise for MRD level 2 and Foresight. DRK, on the other hand, could gain nothing new...

But yes, we lack a lof of information on that...

EDIT : I've found this interview. That might bring a new light on this.

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F: What about tanks?

Y: The current three tank jobs will share the same abilities. By introducing defense abilities such as physical damage resistance 20% up into role shared abilities, in their stead, we can create new unique abilities for jobs.

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If that's the case, then maybe Rampart and Shadowskin (And...whatever corresponding skill you want to chose for WAR) could disappear from their respective job, and indeed being replaced by new and more unique skills.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

We don't know if there will be any overlap at this point in time.

For example: SMN, SCH, AST, WHM, and BLM all use Swiftcast. Two are DPS, three are healers. It would be safe to assume that it will be an option for all of them, possibly under "DoM Skills". But we have no idea at this point.

PLD could still have access to healer skills.

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And the funny thing is the dps would be the least affected by losing it. They'd be affected of course, but healers would get downright crippled by losing it. Maybe the dps will lose it, maybe they'll just make equivalent skills, like how both skull sunder and savage blade are crossclass (and yeah, they're both worthless as such but the point is they're identical). So blm/smn get swiftcast, and healers get a new skill added in called "fastcast" (or whatever).

Why don't we just wait and see how it turns out when it's out in the first place?
All this speculation talk is a bit pointless when we have so little info. Saying it's a mistake at this point is really a bit over the top.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

It's far too early to speculate on something we know almost nothing about.

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Well no, because speculation is a lot of fun. XD

At this early juncture, we just need to be aware of the fact that any speculation is basically just a slightly educated guess.

Re OP: I don't think they'd get rid of something like Stoneskin for PLD. While it isn't "meta" for raiding, a lot of players take and use it (Ramuh HM becomes a lot easier for the healers if you spam Stoneskin on yourself after establishing a hate lead). If anything, if it disappears from the toolkit, I expect it will be replaced with a more attractive PLD-exclusive version (maybe instacast of the same, or part of the rotation under Shield Oath).

SE did a very good job in 3.0 of keeping the jobs intact (such that playing any level 50 content in level sync is largely the same as it was during 2.x). I imagine we'll see the same sort of transition from 3.55-4.0. Probably some QoL improvements, and maybe needing to change the nuance of how we use some of our skills, but stepping from 60 to 61 probably won't feel any different.

Sorry, that's not the point i'm trying to make. I listed some examples to make the visuals easier.

The point i am trying to make is. Wouldn't it be easier for the Devs to just assign the skills they want each individual job to have, instead of throwing 3 jobs in multiple categories? Wouldn't that be easier to maintain going forward? I feel like the role specific categories will lead to problems down the road. If its easier to specify all the skills they want a WAR to have, why tie your hands by putting them in the tank category and then trying to figure out if you want PLD to have the same Cross skills as WAR?

Plus if we can bring this to the dev's attention now then they have time to change it IF they want. Also, 60% of the forum topics are on speculation. How is this topic any different than "the lady in red"?

The easiest solution I can imagine is that tanks and healers get Provoke and Cleric Stance automatically at levels 20 and 5, respectively, without consuming a cross-class slot, while these skills are still available according to their previous affinities as cross-class skills for anyone else.

Additionally, the 'job' tabs of the cross-class skills instead show all skills available, from any source class but sortable by class within that same screen, and have a "recommended" section at the top, perhaps with a brief explanation as to how that cross-class skill is useful to that given job. It defaults to the additional skills section for the job currently equipped if you merely click instead on the "Additional Skills" section header.

If there are abilities like Provoke and Cleric Stance that are flat-out mandatory for all character of a given role, it makes more sense to just have one ability to maintain that they all share rather than a different one for each job. It's a little more development effort up front, but takes up to (currently) 66% less work to maintain.

Think of it this way: each ability is a single data object. When you need to adjust an ability's performance, if each job had a separate version of the ability, they'd need to adjust it for each and every job that has them. If they're shared, that's just one adjustment. Take Foresight. Basically every tank has Foresight. If in removing the cross-class, they then added an equivalent for each job, that becomes three abilities they now need to maintain (the WAR version, the PLD version, and the DRK version). Addressing a bug in one job's ability's behavior will need to be duplicated to the other two that have duplicate code. If they share the ability, though, that is only one debug effort that needs to be done to cover all three jobs.

If in the new system a job is too strong or too weak, they can adjust sliders and make tweaks on other abilities (after all, if it's an ability that's shared between jobs, it's not likely to be the problem, as they can all access it).

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

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Similarly though, it'd be "easier" not to differentiate healing CDs among healers or tank stances among tanks (e.g. all healers get Divine Seal, and all tanks simply get Defiance/Deliverance (now called "Attacker/Defender"). While, since we're already used to having just one of each, Cleric Stance and Provoke would probably be met with as much criticism and welcome if each was turned into a different skill and related mechanic per healer, the concept is really no different. To take what were previously mandatory cross-classes, basically base skills identical across multiple jobs, and diversify them by creating a version each per job would be "additional" effort, but of little difference from, say, making a new job; granted, in this case it'd be 4, rather significant, items of addition, rather than 27 (many of which can be copied and re-titled, if DRK and AST are anything to go by).

On which note, should each job simply include its own native version of a given skill, there's plentiful precedent to make them copies of each other differentiated only by art, name, and icon for closer aesthetics, wherein no future balance revisions nor cross-class leveling are required, but neither would a job or class necessarily feel "cheated" out of identity insofar as the skill itself goes.

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Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

Why don't we just wait and see how it turns out when it's out in the first place?

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Simply put, because unless it concerns balance among jobs or the overall meta of upper-end play, significant adjustments after implementation are almost nil in this game. While it's unlikely the forums will have an impact on incoming designs, that chance is even less after initial implementation.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The easiest solution I can imagine is that tanks and healers get Provoke and Cleric Stance automatically at levels 20 and 5, respectively, without consuming a cross-class slot, while these skills are still available according to their previous affinities as cross-class skills for anyone else.

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That's one thing we don't know yet. Will there be "slots" ? Speculating on the recent interviews, it doesn't really feel that way.

I think they will make a "backbone" for each role, like a Rampart-like for tanks, a raise for Healers, etc...they could even put the whole "enmity combo" if they want, since they basically are the same at their core. Once it's done, they can tweaks the skills for each job with traits or stance buffs.

Besides, how many different names will they manage to find for a raising spell before it sounds ridiculous ? :p

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Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

Why don't we just wait and see how it turns out when it's out in the first place?
All this speculation talk is a bit pointless when we have so little info. Saying it's a mistake at this point is really a bit over the top.

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Pretty sure everyone in this thread is aware that it is pointless, however we can still talk about and wonder and worry about the information we have so far. It won't amount to anything (other than the devs looking at what our thoughts are), but thats what community forums are for.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Besides, how many different names will they manage to find for a raising spell before it sounds ridiculous ? :p

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But.... we still have to get through Life and Curaise D: (You are right, one raise is fine)

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Think of it this way: each ability is a single data object. When you need to adjust an ability's performance, if each job had a separate version of the ability, they'd need to adjust it for each and every job that has them. If they're shared, that's just one adjustment. Take Foresight. Basically every tank has Foresight. If in removing the cross-class, they then added an equivalent for each job, that becomes three abilities they now need to maintain (the WAR version, the PLD version, and the DRK version). Addressing a bug in one job's ability's behavior will need to be duplicated to the other two that have duplicate code. If they share the ability, though, that is only one debug effort that needs to be done to cover all three jobs.

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I can understand that, but lets use Foresight as the example (this can be any skill but I'll just use Foresight). What if in the future they decide Foresight is to "overpowered" on PLD but works as intended for WAR and DRK. Foresight has been added to the tank pool and adjusting it to balance with Pld might underpower it for DRK and WAR. If each of the tanks had abilities asigned to it individually they could balance or remove it from Pld and the other two tanks wouldn't be affected. Just like when Thunder was removed because it was to OP on SMN but WHM could have really kept the dps boost.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's one thing we don't know yet. Will there be "slots" ? Speculating on the recent interviews, it doesn't really feel that way.

I think they will make a "backbone" for each role, like a Rampart-like for tanks, a raise for Healers, etc...they could even put the whole "enmity combo" if they want, since they basically are the same at their core. Once it's done, they can tweaks the skills for each job with traits or stance buffs.

Besides, how many different names will they manage to find for a raising spell before it sounds ridiculous ? :p

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But consider how many threads have been basically devoted just to the "small" differences between Rage of Halone, Power Slash, and Butcher's Block. Though they may all function as enmity combos, there are enough distinctions that the purpose and prioritization of said combo differs for each tank after achieving a sufficient enmity margin. Give them all the same, and you've got a PLD without mitigation weaponskills, or a WAR and DRK with two each, an even weaker Power Slash (now "Enmity Combo part 3"), etc.

My own preference would be to have the skills differ not only in name and art, but in actual effect. Warrior and Dark Knight could each acquire their own version of Provoke at level 20, which would then be added to their role skill list; any one of the three is free, and additional of them can taken at cost of cross-class slots. Warrior, for instance, could gain Challenge, generating massive AoE temporary enmity around himself and his target, while Dark Knight could gain Command, which provides little enmity directly but forces the target to attack him for up to 6 seconds (according to his Command buff, which can be dropped).

Healers similarly could have distinct versions of their Raising ability. To start with an extreme example, Ascend could be changed to a resume-able channel (when not Swiftcasted), which appears to pull the incapacitated party member upward, puppeting him, as if through gravitational forces above around the target, allowing it to fight earlier, but with less protection than Resurrection or Raise. Raise, alternatively, could be charged spell that grants percentile HP, MP, and TP to a fallen party member upon reaching a particular minimum amount (the hidden amounts granted beneath this minimum fade over time at an accelerating rate). This would normally take a scaled 8 seconds worth of casting, and can be overcharged to 10 to provide higher HP, MP, and TP upon resurrection. Resurrection remains the plain cast, but with less time required to make up for its being more likely cancelled. Just some spit-ball ideas.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

What if in the future they decide Foresight is to "overpowered" on PLD but works as intended for WAR and DRK.

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Then they nerf PLD in other spots and assume every PLD will take Foresight. After all, that's all they could do with the current cross-class skills - MNK, NIN, BRD and MCH all get the same Blood for Blood and Invigorate. If it ends up OP on one of them, they'll have to drain power elsewhere, namely in the job skills.

Nothing really new to see there. It's not particularly good design - after all, what if doesn't even use foresight? That person gets doubly gimped, once for not taking the OP ability and once for being nerfed to compensate the OP ability. But it's not worse than what we have right now, because nothing changes except that people won't have to level the respective class to get access to the OP ability.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But consider how many threads have been basically devoted just to the "small" differences between Rage of Halone, Power Slash, and Butcher's Block.

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You can look at it that way : Skull Sunder and Savage Blade are exactly the same. But, when using Defiance or Deliverance, suddenly, Skull Sunder has an additionnal effect upon Savage Blade.
So, even with the same skill you could make the three tanks a little different if you want.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

What if in the future they decide Foresight is to "overpowered" on PLD but works as intended for WAR and DRK.

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You can't say "Foresight is overpower on PLD but work as intended on DRK and WAR". You can say that PLD is too strong comared to WAR and DRK. The difference is that, to balance the tanks, you could still bring adjustments to the exclusive job skills and not touch the backbone.

That's why it always felt weird that SMN and SCH sharing a class would make balancing them difficult...just tweak the pet or job skills...I'm sure SMN players would have loved to gain stronger pets to increase their DPS without touching SCH.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You can't say "Foresight is overpowered on PLD but work as intended on DRK and WAR".

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You easily can though, so long as Foresight plays towards a particular synergy with PLD that it does not DRK and WAR. If PLD were to take on a skill that gives a portion of its Defense as barrier and another portion of Defense as flat damage reduction, suddenly Foresight would be far more worthwhile, an obligatory prep skill for the other. The situations in which that would be significant may still be relatively niche as not to make PLD stand out from the other tanks in itself, but the contribution of Foresight would obviously be inflated for PLD and PLD only. However, the complaint is unlikely then to come from DRKs or WARs, but rather PLDs themselves who feel that their own tool now requires, more than any other slot choice, an otherwise lackluster skill from another class / the general tank skill pool.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You can look at it that way : Skull Sunder and Savage Blade are exactly the same. But, when using Defiance or Deliverance, suddenly, Skull Sunder has an additional effect upon Savage Blade.
So, even with the same skill you could make the three tanks a little different if you want.

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And this is what I'd like to see more of, especially playing upon what already appears (via their animations) to be the obvious differences between the skills. Savage Blade, for instance, looks to me to be a counter-attack of sorts, as when dipping under an enemy's attack, while Skull Sunder looks like it'd be strong enough to drive someone headfirst into the ground from the sheer force applied to the crown and back of their head, while Spinning Slash looks like a hell of a cleave, yet no such difference actually exists. Granted, allowing for those differences in a way that would look natural and feel intuitive would first require three significant changes — that their is a means of counter-attacks outside mere procs and unlocks (e.g. target-specific bonus windows), a means for suppression by damage, and that AoEs and STs are more woven together (whatever looks like a cleave, is a cleave; meanwhile, traditionally AoE abilities now have a bit broader, albeit situational, use).

I think development of, say, those three systems would a worthwhile investment, given how much more each of those things could do for the game—as far as I can predict—but I doubt SE would see it the same way. The majority of complexity we're likely to see would seem more likely to come instead from bloated tooltips, or be neglected or even trimmed altogether, rather than from any universal undermechanics.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If PLD were to take on a skill that gives a portion of its Defense as barrier and another portion of Defense as flat damage reduction, suddenly Foresight would be far more worthwhile, an obligatory prep skill for the other.

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Then you just have to adjust that other skill so that the barrier/damage reduction is lower. Besides, we still don't know if we'll have to chose from the role skill pool or if we'll simply have all of it.

All I want is for pld to get something less disappointing than Mercy Stroke. I get more mileage out of Cc prot and Raise than that skill.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I get more mileage out of Cc prot and Raise than that skill.

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How would raise be better? PLD can only use it out of combat, making it useless in almost all relevant content besides PotD. Meanwhile Mercy Stroke can be used on anything that gets to lower than 20% HP.

Mercy Stroke is a use once and forget ability that deals weak damage and has way too long a cooldown to ever be feasible even as meter padding. Using or not using it won't prevent a wipe or enrage. Meanwhile, I've prevented several wipes in PotD through clever use of my support toolkit, which does include Raise. Mercy Stroke is an afterthought at best, while Raise can be run saving, even if it's only really in one piece of content, while offering a bit of variation of gameplay compared to other tanks.

TL;DR, Mercy Stroke is something I often forget I even have set because it's impact is less than minimal on the progress of a fight, while Raise is never something I regret cross classing, because when I find myself needing to use it, it's typically to prevent a party wipe that would otherwise be happening.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You easily can though, so long as Foresight plays towards a particular synergy with PLD that it does not DRK and WAR. If PLD were to take on a skill that gives a portion of its Defense as barrier and another portion of Defense as flat damage reduction, suddenly Foresight would be far more worthwhile, an obligatory prep skill for the other. The situations in which that would be significant may still be relatively niche as not to make PLD stand out from the other tanks in itself, but the contribution of Foresight would obviously be inflated for PLD and PLD only. However, the complaint is unlikely then to come from DRKs or WARs, but rather PLDs themselves who feel that their own tool now requires, more than any other slot choice, an otherwise lackluster skill from another class / the general tank skill pool.

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You mean like how Awareness synergises with Raw Intuition but does nothing for PLD? I don't think anyone (WAR or otherwise) has complained about that.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You mean like how Awareness synergises with Raw Intuition but does nothing for PLD? I don't think anyone (WAR or otherwise) has complained about that.

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Awareness works equally well for DRK/PLD/WAR though when paired with their respective cd's. In the case of the former 2, Shelton and Bulwark, and in the case of the latter, Dark Dance. However, it times itself very well for DD, while not being so neatly timed for Bulwark/RI.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Awareness works equally well for DRK/PLD/WAR though when paired with their respective cd's. In the case of the former 2, Shelton and Bulwark, and in the case of the latter, Dark Dance. However, it times itself very well for DD, while not being so neatly timed for Bulwark/RI.

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I think you misunderstand the application. When used with Bulwark, awareness may or may not do something, you might get a few more blocks in, you might get a bit more mitigation, same goes for dark dance. Its one of those "I might as well, I'm not using it for anything else" skills.

With Raw Intuition, it literally erases the drawbacks. It voids the clause "All attacks from the back crit", which is far better synergy than PLD or DRK have.

I suppose, but I've never found any reason to use RI in a mob scenario. And I do know about that, considering I did, in fact, main war up until 3.3 when I found PLD/DRK a more attractive alternative. I just never found any reason to use the skill when there's better ones to use for a mobbing scenario.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I suppose, but I've never found any reason to use RI in a mob scenario. And I do know about that, considering I did, in fact, main war up until 3.3 when I found PLD/DRK a more attractive alternative. I just never found any reason to use the skill when there's better ones to use for a mobbing scenario.

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Thats my point, I was arguing against the fact that it would be OP to have cross classes have different functionality between jobs. Raw intuition/awareness is a good combo, but its not good to the point where PLDs and DRKs feel left out (though I would have liked awareness to be more specifically good to PLD, but that doesnt matter now since we will be losing it to role skills).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Then you just have to adjust that other skill so that the barrier/damage reduction is lower. Besides, we still don't know if we'll have to chose from the role skill pool or if we'll simply have all of it.

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That would be adjustment to neither "job exclusive skills" nor the job's "backbone" as you suggested (?), as it would indeed be targeting a specific cross class skill specifically as it is too strong in a specific class (the concept this was exactly meant to give an example of), but yes that would be another way to handle it.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You mean like how Awareness synergises with Raw Intuition but does nothing for PLD? I don't think anyone (WAR or otherwise) has complained about that.

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Yes, I was referring in part to that precedent. That said, due to the desync between RI and Awareness, I actually feel like DD better draws people's attention to the strength of the synergy, while for Warriors the attention is placed more on RI itself. (E.g. "Did we really need this auto-crit component? Is making sure all enemies are in a cone in front of me really an enjoyable component?)

I hope I get to keep stoneskin and protect, stoneskin especially.

Similar but different PLD specific skills would work for me though, barrier, shell, wall, probably others, that could fill the gap.