4.0 Relic, Eureka, 72hr NM

It would be really nice if there were some sort of clarification on how this is ACTUALLY going to work.

The translations leave a lot to be desired for me, in regards to removing worry about how little is being said about these 72hr NM.

Is the relic just going to be masked as "Time Investment", but what it really turns out to be is a first come first served type of situation? I understand that not everyone enjoys tome farming, but I also realize not everyone likes gated content, especially behind hunt type content. Been there, done that. I don't want relic tied behind a 6 man zerg fest. I've tried to scour the internet for info on XI and the "NM" that went with it.

How do the devs expect ANYONE with a job, or normal sleep schedule, to "invest time" into that? You can't invest time if you can't get on in time to get credit from a kill.

It would be really nice if this was explained more thoroughly and not thrown together one with the other. Will it require the NM spawns, or will it not? It's obviously not too early to tell us, if they have a base design already spread before them.


Edit: To clarify, I've finished every single relic step-in less than two weeks. This isn't a "complaint" thread, so I would ask anyone that posts please refrain from following the same pattern of thought as the second poster. Relic is ridiculously easy, and is of no "challenge".

I am merely asking for clarification to what's been said in terms of keeping relic as a "Time Investment", and what NM are known for, which is pure RNG/chance, 5% zerg drop chances. Which as far as I'm concerned, random chance is not challenging, just a waste of "Time"

I figured the "but Yoshi, I have a real life, a real job and a real family" comments would start coming in about this one, but I didn't expect them to start so early...

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

I figured the "but Yoshi, I have a real life, a real job and a real family" comments would start coming in about this one, but I didn't expect them to start so early...

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I never said that I was complaining. I was voicing that I don't see gated content as time investment, and that it's confusing to place everything in the same paragraph, without saying whether or not they'll be tied to one another. Thank you for your on topic, original and well thought out post.

I think relic as it is, is far too easy. But that doesn't mean I like gated, now or never content.

Or how about you let SE tease it and have the community speculate and be excited between PR events? As for "I have a life, and a job", why are you playing an MMO if you can't commit to playing the game?

The relic isn't required and you can still get it around having a job. I have a college dissertation, an early morning job, and a girlfriend to fit gaming around, and if I don't get to play certain, more time invested activities, then that is on me (I haven't been able to finish PotD yet, as an example). You can bet when I have a day off, or some extra time then I will get into the content, and that is okay.

Bottom line: Your busy life is your problem, and the game should not be catered to someone who doesn't have time to play.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Or how about you let SE tease it and have the community speculate and be excited between PR events? As for "I have a life, and a job", why are you playing an MMO if you can't commit to playing the game?

The relic isn't required and you can still get it around having a job. I have a college dissertation, an early morning job, and a girlfriend to fit gaming around, and if I don't get to play certain, more time invested activities, then that is on me. You can bet when I have a day off, or some extra time then I will get into the content, and that is okay.

Bottom line: Your busy life is your problem, and the game should not be catered to someone who doesn't have time to play.

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I never said that I MYSELF cannot invest the time. I play at most 9 hours spread throughout a day with work and juggling a life.

Judging by their core design concepts (and their two iterations of relic design so far), I highly doubt it being the only way to progress. Recently they've added multiple ways to end up with the same items. (Buy with tomes, or collect some other items/do some other content with lockouts, basically a fast route which is grinding or a slower route that is time locked) I expect that to continue for the next relic unless they completely change the design.

I seriously doubt that the 72 hour spawns will be the only way to boost your relic. Maybe it might give a large boost but not mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Laerad3993

I never said that I MYSELF cannot invest the time. I play at most 9 hours spread throughout a day with work and juggling a life.

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Fair enough, but that doesn't invalidate my point. Sorry for the overly harsh attack, but I'm sick of people wanting to dumb down the game and strip out any kind of depth and time investment for the lowest common denominator. What about those who play the game for 2 hours every day who want something deep and meaningful (while not being hard) to do? Those are the players who log in and populate the world, and consistently pay subs every month. Why can't we cater to those people?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Fair enough, but that doesn't invalidate my point. Sorry for the overly harsh attack, but I'm sick of people wanting to dumb down the game and strip out any kind of depth and time investment for the lowest common denominator. What about those who play the game for 2 hours every day who want something deep and meaningful (while not being hard) to do? Those are the players who log in and populate the world, and consistently pay subs every month. Why can't we cater to those people?

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Unless one stays logged in for hours upon hours upon hours at a time, the chance of you being around during the narrow window of some world boss on a 72-hour timer spawning is insanely low. That seems like kind of poor design to tie it to something that needs to be grinded.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Fair enough, but that doesn't invalidate my point. Sorry for the overly harsh attack, but I'm sick of people wanting to dumb down the game and strip out any kind of depth and time investment for the lowest common denominator.

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I don't want any of that. I should have explained it a bit better. Seeing what XI was, what everyone talks about XI, XI relic, and gating of content, that is my issue. I would not and could not care less if the first step took a month playing 8-10 hours a day to complete in 4.0

I do NOT think locking content to something reminiscent to(in my opinion) what sounds like Odin FATE in Hunt form, and masking it as a "Time Investment" is fair or truthful. Each time 4.0 Relic has been brought up, which is what, twice now? He follows up with that 72hr NM bit. Hence my comment on time investment. It isn't a time investment if you CANNOT feasibly log in on time to see if it is up. That isn't "hard" by any means.

If they refuse to add relic and tie it to raiding or EC primals, which I would be fine with in regards to EX primals as I enjoy farming primals, then why and how would it be ok to tie it to a timer that people cannot log in to beat.

To me, it straight up sounds like we need something from said 72hour NM for our relics. Whether or not it's a material it can drop, that we need credit from the kill, or that the relic itself is the reward for killing it is what we don't know.

But, to be perfectly honest, this sounds suspiciously like the kind of grinds that FFXI had, and NM's there required you to camp spawn points whenever said timer would hit and hope you could do enough to get credit or that it dropped your mat.

What's confusing is Yoshi-P has stated repeatedly in the past that the relic grind was always meant as a time-sink for players to earn the best weapons despite not having the skill or group of friends for EX primals or raids. It's the lower stress, casual option. Anyone can do the relic stuff.

So.... Instead of a grind, we just watch for a timer and hope we can be on and get kill credit?

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Unless one stays logged in for hours upon hours upon hours at a time, the chance of you being around during the narrow window of some world boss on a 72-hour timer spawning is insanely low. That seems like kind of poor design to tie it to something that needs to be grinded.

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"poor design" we dont even know the details can players atleast wait abit to see how it is lol

A speculation that comes to my mind is the potential option of choosing between different ways to gain your relic. "Slow and steady pace" that might take 10-15hrs of gameplay to accomplish or laying claim on an NM that drops what's needed for X relic.

So basically something in the sense of, "You can either get me 500 Mandragora leaves, 250 Malboro Hearts and 60 Bat wings or you can obtain a piece of "Golden Chimera Hair" from this notorious monster.

If they do it like that, then people would have no reason to complain as the 72hr option would just be a risk/reward with fighting against others but providing them with a quicker means of accomplishing their goal.

Or the 72hrs are actually something completely different which drop glamour gear/mount/minions however it would take the strength of relic/savage gear in order to beat.

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Originally Posted by Airget

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Therein is the next issue. From everything I could find, relics tied to NM in XI were like 5% chance of actually dropping. Unless I was looking at the wrong things.

Wonderful "time investment" on a 72hr spawn.

Aren't you the guy that got your 240 done in 10 days?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Bottom line: Your busy life is your problem, and the game should not be catered to someone who doesn't have time to play.

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I'm sure the competition on the gaming market will appreciate this notion.

Meanwhile League of Legends, the most casual friendly game on the market with its short dedicated timeframes, low commitment, miniscule barriers, expansive cash shop and adapting difficulty that innately supports all levels of play celebrates 100 million monthly active users and the highest revenue on the market despite the worst turnover rate.

Honestly? It seems like catering to people who don't have much time seems like an excellent idea. You can even afford to waste money on a big E-sports publicity stunt.

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

Aren't you the guy that got your 240 done in 10 days?

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Yes I am, and again, this has nothing to do with MY TIME. I have friends that do relic too, you know?

It's the design choice. If this is reminiscent of XI's design, it is 100% chance/rng/luck based.

Atma pre nerf on a 3 day random respawn, is NOT a time investment grind. They might as well keep it as is.

I actually don't mind a 'grind' so long as it's not based on luck or being around at a specific moment. On larger servers such as Balmung when the Hunt system is relevant it's a real pain to deal with. People pull immediately, don't necessarily broadcast that they're around and...honestly scouting maps for obscure creatures isn't the most thrilling way to pass the time. Some exploit the system by working out when they're going to be around and then rush to kill them before most people figure it out.

I'd be surprised and disappointed if that's how it plays out for 4.0 as well.

The way it worked in FFXI for 72 hour spawns would have a window of 72hours to one week. When the NM was in the window groups would show up at the spawn point the first group who claimed the NM was the only one that would get drops if they killed it. Not sure how this would work in FFXIV they probably would have something different.

I would wait till release before complaining about it.

I hope the 72 hour NM thing isn't like trying to farm the Odin Fate (seen twice since 2.5), Behemoth Fate (seen once since 2.5) , and that slightly more common chain fate around Anix and Tail feather. Those are more like random world encounters if you happen to zone into the right place at the right time. Like that S rank NM that spawns near Costa Del Soul.

They aren't going to clarify details on content for 4.0 yet because A) it is still in development and therefore subject to change and B) as 4.0 content, they aren't likely to give us much details this far out from 4.0 outside the Fanfests.

That said, I doubt the Anima 4.0 will require NM kills.

if it effects the relic progress at all I guess it will speed up things if you are around for the kill. I highly doubt it will be a requirement.

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Originally Posted by Laerad3993

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Thanks for clarifying. I haven't actually played XI, but I have heard stories of its relics. I do not think this will be like getting XI relics, that would be silly and completely the opposite of the dev teams philosophy on relic. I actually think it's pointless to speculate on how relic will be handled because we literally do not have ANY information as to how it will work, but I echo the sentiments of those who are saying it will be optional (and if it isn't then I'm sure it will be balanced so that it won't be terrible to get).

Slightly off topic, but what I do think would be cool, concerning camping NMs, is a super relic, a weapon that requires an insane amount of effort to get (high level content, and grind), but is relevant for the entire expansion. That might satisfy those who liked the XI system, while keeping the current relic for people like you and I.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Meanwhile League of Legends, the most casual friendly game on the market with its short dedicated timeframes, low commitment, miniscule barriers, expansive cash shop and adapting difficulty that innately supports all levels of play celebrates 100 million monthly active users and the highest revenue on the market despite the worst turnover rate.

Honestly? It seems like catering to people who don't have much time seems like an excellent idea. You can even afford to waste money on a big E-sports publicity stunt.

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I won't humor this too much to prevent derailing the thread into a debate about this, but what you said here is actually irrelevant to anything. Comparing League of Legends and XIV is like comparing Mario Kart and Skyrim, you just can't, these games have different audiences and completely different gameplay cores. League of Legends is designed to have a standard play session of around 20-40mins, then the game ends and you go back to the menu, so you are correct that LoL has short timeframes and low commitment, and it is successful because the base of the game is entirely designed around that concept. XIV is designed to have time sinks, relic grinds, raiding, crafting, levelling; These things exist to keep people subscribing, to keep people engaged and doing things. MMOs are natural time sinks, they can't have low commitment because it goes against their core design philosophy of "carrot on a stick" progression, something which LoL and other sport style games do not have, and wouldn't even consider because it does not fit the core of the game (so why should an MMO consider low commitment?).

Now what was that quote about assumption again...

Potential for toxic disaster: high.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I won't humor this too much to prevent derailing the thread into a debate about this, but what you said here is actually irrelevant to anything.

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Oh, it's extremely relevant to business and what are successful business decisions and what aren't. Games with considerable timesinks are bleeding players across the board, WoW being the most drastic example - games that cut these out are thriving nowadays, from mobile games to MOBAs. That's a fact and not a coincidence either. As such, it answers the rhetorical question why any game should cater to that crowd - it's where the money lies. If you don't, you're already setting yourself up to live in a comparatively small niché away from the main gaming market. A back alley game.

Moreover, calling a MMO(RPG) a natural timesink is short sighted. It's like coming from the counter strike era and claiming shooters are naturally competitive games. The MMORPG currently on the market are indeed all designed with timesinks, but that's not a design necessity, it's a design choice. It's a convention, not a must.

It's furthermore false to claim LoL and other sports style games do not have "carrot on a stick" progression - With the rune system, LoL very clearly was emulating something akin to a character build and progression, the masteries being the talent tree pendant. That is on top the inbuilt progression each and every game has inside - gets levels and unlock abilities, gather gold -> buy items -> become more powerful. That's something you have in every single game. That's not gone, it's condensed into the duration of the game. And you go ahead and claim it doesn't fit the core of the game. Not much I can say to that, it falls under religious freedom at this point.

Finally, you may have missed it, but SE is wiser than you. SE knows that low time players are important and that's why dungeons are designed to be run in around 20 minutes. That's why we have so little content that requires a higher time investment at a time and why a great many rewards are frontloaded into dailies and weeklies. They clearly are aware, to the point Yoshida himself said he couldn't play the game if they were to make it more time demanding. But they have to work with what they're given - the framework of the game is done, I doubt they'd get allowance to change it from the ground up even if they wanted to. Nevertheless, it would do them a disservice to use that as an excuse to ditch those players altogether and go the opposite direction. Hence, jumping potions are being considered with a 7:3 majority so far. Another all too convenient coincidence.

Actually, we still wait for an explanation what exactly was wrong with 1.x HNM (not NM) force spawn?!
Square Enix never explained why they are trashing something everyone liked... never heard anyone complaining about it, we were discussing the timelimit after spawning HNMs but i cant remember someone arguing that the spawn itself was bad.

What the hell are you people talking about.... Did I miss something on the lodestone that wasn't suppose to be there and was deleted, or are you guys confusing that Conan clueless gamer segment on FFXV... Can someone link where this topic is coming from?

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Originally Posted by Natashio

What the hell are you people talking about.... Did I miss something on the lodestone that wasn't suppose to be there and was deleted, or are you guys confusing that Conan clueless gamer segment on FFXV... Can someone link where this topic is coming from?

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ida_after_nas/

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Originally Posted by Zojha

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Sounds like Blizzfanboys in 2010 to me and how wise blizzard is/was because they pondering to the peeps who said 90 % of the rewards should be obtainable through the smallest gaming session possible, we all know how that went, the post resembles so much that is uncanny

First lets not get ahead, in terms of the new relic requirements if a notorious monster is included it will most likely be some sort of short cut to a step. Similar like in the past if you have a Zeta you can skip the the crystal fate grinding. To be fair to all players, based on their track record so far, they will probably make some sort of adjustment for an alternate path for those who don't have enough time, and it hasn't been set in stone that it will be a must. All they have really talked about is the area will be required. No ground rules yet of what will be needed, perhaps it will be mandatory, perhaps not. I'm sure they have taking into consideration the player base that have real life events. If and that is a big IF , they make it into a requirement perhaps they will come out with a pop version / raid version / fate that may also accomplish that requirement. If it's one thing that I've known since 1.0 is that hey try to make fit to every type of player, and perhaps now they are thinking and responding to our relic holder feed back. RELIC Should be the strongest based on the time it takes and not get the short end of the stick. FFXI relics was something I really liked, just not the fact that they were placed a b it back when new content was released.

It's things like this (and, well, lots of things really) that make me boggle at how this game does not have a PTR.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

It's things like this (and, well, lots of things really) that make me boggle at how this game does not have a PTR.

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My guess, they fear plot spoilers

All I pray is that the relic weapon won't require any 0.1% drops. It pissed me off so much in Monster Hunter to find out that the 1% drop I needed to complete my ultimate charge blade only came from breaking the hand of one of the hardest bosses. 40 minute fight, One hand break, 1% chance to get the loot... not fun. At all.

So this will be like hunts?
Sorry have not read much about 4.0 Relic until this post.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

My guess, they fear plot spoilers

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Unfortunate. Major design changes, or new game features need to be tested by more than their in-house testers. The fact that we can't give meaningful feedback on a change or new thing until it's right in our laps and all the work has already been done to implement it means we will forever be playing catch up.

Even if they DID make a part with a 72 hour spawn, you could just NOT get it, and then a few months later they will nerf it down to a 5 minute respawn. This game does NOT reward power grinding in any way other than suddenly being out of things to do.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

All I pray is that the relic weapon won't require any 0.1% drops. It pissed me off so much in Monster Hunter to find out that the 1% drop I needed to complete my ultimate charge blade only came from breaking the hand of one of the hardest bosses. 40 minute fight, One hand break, 1% chance to get the loot... not fun. At all.

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Well its either that or its requires 1000 of things that garanteed to drop. The relic weapons are alternate progession for people that dont want go through the more difficult content, so the only other way you are "worthy" of the gear is a hard time sink

XI relics were raid related not NM, and took a couple years of grinding with big groups of players just to get one (right now you can even solo it in 2 months), this has nothing to do with ffXI relics.
Considering how this game works, it wont be that scary as having a low drop rate from a 72h NM, it will most likely be a about geting credit in an area full of 72h NMs and other things related to the relic questline to do there.
Oh and theres no such thing as claiming system in this game, just semi-instanced battles like levequest that must be triggered by the players, so there's no reason to worry about competition and campers.