Please Read: Pugilist Concerns

First off, this is not a thread to argue that Pgl will now suck, or create a huge debate over what might come of this update for Pgl. There are already threads for that. I understand that we do not have the update yet and have no testing at all. This thread is meant mainly to give the developers a clean, easy to find and read section for the concerns for 1.20, without having to comb through many threads, and possibly give suggestions that might help. If it turns out that you feel Pgl is already balanced, or these concerns are already addressed then we will be thankful and happy with the design. Anyways on to the concerns. If anyone else has concerns or ideas, feel free to add them and I will try to edit the original post.

MP

This is easily the biggest concern and most of the worries I see. People are concerned that Pgl's normal attack will be weakened to "balance" with the elemental strikes. Furthermore they are worried that if the Pgl's real damage comes from MP, with only a WS to recover it, that we will quickly run out of MP, leaving us weak and not useful as damage dealer. The only MP recover abilities we have is a WS, and one that requires us to be tanking for it to be used. While there are other abilities we can use from other classes, people feel that we should not need to level other classes for our main to be useful, and that it was a big problem with fighting before 1.20, such as the Ifrit fight.

Possible solutions
• Make Second Wind give MP as well as HP returned. This will give Pgl a source of somewhat constant MP.

• Give Pgl an ability similar to Life-surge, which grants MP for every hit. Possibly only able to be preformed without any "stance" up, or even canceled with any special attack barring WS, as to not make it over powered and not eliminate the purpose of consuming MP.


Pugilist Damage

This is mainly to highlight a concern people have, and I don't really have any ways that would "fix" it. People seem to be worried that A. Since Pgl may require so much MP, they will be forced to use the MP WS almost exclusively, restricting damage and WS potential. B. Albeit less mentioned concern I have seen, is the stances elemental damage. Many times before the elemental damage has been somewhat weak and easily resisted, if it is indeed considered "magic damage". If this is the case once again, then it could severely limit Pgl damage on anything higher then the Pgl's level.

Stretched Too Thin

This concern I want to address is the focus of Pgl. While other classes have a defined role and focus, Pgl seems to be much less so. Pgl seems to be a "damage dealer", however they have several abilities made for tanking, as well as seeming to be based somewhat around magic damage. People are concerned this will lead to Pgl being stretched too thin and making being able to reach our full potential, via gear and materia, very hard to do.

Equipment
The last concern I have seen, ties into the previous one. With Pgl using both Str, and Int, and odd & unique combination, as primary stats, people seem to be concerned that this will make equipping Pgl, with current gear very difficult. I just want you to keep in mind what Pgl may need for stats, when designing future equipment.


Well that is all I have. I hope this makes an easy to read section so you can understand many of the concerns people have. If these happen to be non-issues, considering we haven't played the update yet, then that is even better. Thank you for your time reading this and I hope Pgl will be a great and unique class, that will be fun to play.

Lets hope someone will read this.

While generally I'm positive about the changes to pugilist, I do agree with most points you've brought up. MP management is my biggest concern currently and although we can't really be sure just yet, the mp recovery skills native to pugilist don't fill me with complete confidence on this issue. I can't comment on the WS seeing as we havent seen it in action (although "chance to" is mildly worrying) however we can pretty much all agree that in 90% of party situations relying on featherfoot for mp restoration isn't going to be great/reliable unless we're the tank.

Following the great disaster that was the attributes patch that made pugilist damage laughingly low compared to other classes, now the second bit of awesome news comes in the form of pugilist being the only melee class in which 70% of the abilities are either mutually exclusive or situational.

It's only natural that you cannot use multiple elemental attacks or kicks at the same time. So, instead of having 15 abilities pugilists really have 4 abilities: Chakra, Blindside, Taunt and Featherfoot. The rest are either Weapon Skills or abilities that are mutually exclusive and drain mp. How many of those four abilities will increase your damage? Just one in addition to the one you choose for your situation: either one of the elemental attacks or kicks [edit: sorry, no kicks. monk only].

Monk's trademark has always been raw melee damage, kick attacks and counter (so far, the latter is nowhere to be seen). Now in the age of yoshida you imbue a game with the FF feeling by making Monk MP-dependent. I understand nothing.

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Monk's trademark has always been raw melee damage, kick attacks and counter (so far, the latter is nowhere to be seen).

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Uhh, Monk has traditionally been a very wind and earth element focused entity. FFXI's Monk is not automatically the traditional Monk, just like FFXI's BLM was in reality less traditional than XIV's BLM is shaping up to be. Traditional BLM does not have privilege to every element, and traditional Monk is very much elemental based.

If I wanted to play as FFXI's Monk all over again I would play FFXI.

Yeah, Monk has often had elemental related attacks.

FF6: Aura Cannon (Holy Damage), Rising Phoenix (Fire), Razor Gale (Wind), Phantom Rush (Non-Elemental Magic Damage)
FF9: All Abilities under the Flair category (which was for Monk) cost MP. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Flair
FF12: In the International Version (Which had Job-Specific License Boards) Monks had access to a slew of white magic.

Looking at the past history, the elemental based stances aren't too much of a stretch. We all just need to wait until we know how expensive the MP cost of the stances are.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Uhh, Monk has traditionally been a very wind and earth element focused entity. FFXI's Monk is not automatically the traditional Monk, just like FFXI's BLM was in reality less traditional than XIV's BLM is shaping up to be. Traditional BLM does not have privilege to every element, and traditional Monk is very much elemental based.

If I wanted to play as FFXI's Monk all over again I would play FFXI.

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Why do you assume I care about FFXI? I didn't even mention FFXI.
In FF, FFIII, FFV... in mostly every traditional final fantasy game I can think of that has an actual job system, really... monk didn't even have any spells nor any use for an mp pool.

As to monk being elemental, may be you're mistaking it with the monk job of FFT, but in reality FFT jobs have pretty much nothing in common with FF jobs.

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Originally Posted by Miliant

As to monk being elemental, may be you're mistaking it with the monk job of FFT, but in reality FFT jobs have pretty much nothing in common with FF jobs.

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In FFIII the Monk profession came from the Wind Crystal, while it's powered up form Black Belt came from the Earth Crystal.

In FFIV Yang's claws added elemental and status properties to his attacks rather than increase his strength.

In FFVI Sabin had multiple Blitz attacks that dealt elemental/non-elemental magic damage.

In FFIX Amarant's Flair skills consumed MP.

Lastly, XIV's Monk does not have any spells either.

These concerns pretty much mirror my own in regards to the proposed changes.

I've always said that Second Wind should just give us a portion of our MP back in addition to HP. It makes more sense than Featherfoot. As I mentioned in another thread, Light Strike increases evasion and costs MP and yet Featherfoot increases evasion to a greater degree and restores MP. No sense.

From what I gather from reading Pgl WS 8, it seems kind of like Bloodbath + Victimize but for MP instead of HP. Used in a combo there's yet another Chance that the effect can be increased. Now this move/combo seems to be what Pugilist/Monk will be relying on for MP generation. Whether or not this is good or bad hinges upon how often the effect occurs and the magnitude of the effect. If it's like most single-action restore moves and gives up a couple hundred MP back, that's awesome. If it's in proportion to damage dealt like Bloodbath, that too would be fine. Another thing to consider is the cooldown of both Pgl WS 5 and 8. If we can absorb MP faster than we can spend it with the other abilities, fantastic.

Most of these things are not issues in short fights or even EXP parties where you can take a break and it's not hurting anyone. But in long boss/NM fights this issue can become huge very quickly and would then lead to Pugilist exclusion from parties.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

But in long boss/NM fights this issue can become huge very quickly and would then lead to Pugilist exclusion from parties.

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In long boss fights you will have access to same external MP regeneration abilities as every other mage. As in, Bard.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

In long boss fights you will have access to same external MP regeneration abilities as every other mage. As in, Bard.

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Ideally, yes. Best case scenario there's a Bard present who can help you regen MP. If not, you're kind of shit outta luck.

protip: you'll never ever without a bard in group

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Following the great disaster that was the attributes patch that made pugilist damage laughingly low compared to other classes,

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Not true, can outdamage or do as good as anyone VS single target.

i really can see the point the OP is making, pug is becoming a magic user, but you don't see blackmages worried that they use magic, your worries are that SE made pug use magic, but didn't realise magic uses mp?

like i said i see the concern and feel it also. but atm i am in strong belief that whan testing it the devs balanced the magic use. and ppl that say they messed up a year ago why should we trust it works now. i say yoshi didn't mess up a year ago, give him a chance

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Originally Posted by Miliant

Following the great disaster that was the attributes patch that made pugilist damage laughingly low compared to other classes, now the second bit of awesome news comes in the form of pugilist being the only melee class in which 70% of the abilities are either mutually exclusive or situational.

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I agree that so many of the Pugilist's moves shouldn't be the same thing with a different element, but uh...damage "laughingly low"?

Pugilist is one of the top DDs against a single target. Now Gladiator's DPS, THAT is truly pathetic damage.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

protip: you'll never ever without a bard in group

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Actually considering Pugilist has the same MP drain type abilities Monk has, in 1.20 we'll be entirely without Bards and we'll still have MP drain abilities. So I think that's a situation where we'd be without a Bard in groups for months.

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Originally Posted by http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/30986-dev1206-Class-Reforms-Action-Lists?p=449764#post449764

A master of hand-to-hand combat, pugilists harbor the power of the elements within their fists. Making use of MP to imbue his already punishing strikes with the power of fire and earth, the pugilist is a reliable damage-dealer against most any kind of foe. The monk job further acquires the power of wind, and in marrying offense and defense in attacks, improves upon the pugilist’s capacity to deal explosive damage.

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Note the words in bold. Its not talking about explosive as in fire, but rather burst damage (high damage in short amount of time). This is done through the use of a constant MP drain when you need this burst damage.

I don't think PGL are meant to constantly have this damage buff on, but when you need to deal some damage fast(eg. mob is on 10% hp and you need to kill it quick before it does something). Otherwise PGL would be like any generic damage dealer.

Depending on how they tweak the MP usage from PGL:A5 ("Fire Stance"), PGL:A6 ("Earth Stance"), MNK:A4 ("Wind Stance"), and MNK:A2 ("+Kicks") and the MP generated from PGL:A4 ("Featherfoot") and PGL:WS8 ("Mana-Conduit Atemi/MCA") it could end up leading towards an interesting dynamic of "Stance-Dancing."

Defensively (and under the assumption that we don't have a BRD in party), I'm envisioning a type of rotation involving a swap between the more MP-intensive, but defensively superior, Wind Stance vs. a MP-efficient, defensively inferior, Earth Stance that both revolve around the MP generated from Featherfoot (Net loss of MP while under Wind Stance and net gain of MP under Earth Stance).

Offensively, roughly the same idea with Fire Stance being superior, but MP-intensive whist +Kicks would be the more inferior whilst having less strain on the MP Pool where they both revolve around MCA. Where this differs, now, is that you can do the standard push/pull on the MP Pool but also have the option of doing the proposed "explosive damage" routine where both are going at the same time (as Fire Stance +Kicks are both not exclusive unlike Earth and Wind Stances) on top of activating MNK:AB1 ("Oraoraoraora!").

Mixing both aspects, the offensive wild-card of +Kicks and defensive Earth/Wind Stances combine to provide a kind of "burst emnity generation" while tanking after using PGL:A3 ("Taunt") to get the mob's attention at the cost of extended time spent in Earth Stance's inferior defensive position to pull the MP Pool back up.

Effectively, the PGL/MNK, under this assumed skill structuring, would be using the MP bar similar to a "Parallel TP Bar" to fuel his abilities rather than a standard "MP Pool" from a mage standpoint. Also, instead of a cool-down rotation that most other classes would have it would be an "Acceleration/Deceleration" scheme of juggling MP consumption/regeneration via toggling between effects and stances. With a BRD around then, it would just mean you could have more of a lead foot for pressing down on the accelerator.

Now, of course, this is all COMPLETELY SPECULATIVE and my own take on a possible way they could swing this to give the PGL/MNK a distinctive shtick in how they would go about their style of DDing and (limited) tanking in relation to their major abilities and native MP-regen.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

protip: you'll never ever without a bard in group

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protip: saying protip is retarded.

For those who concern problem as PGl role in PT, please look at this thread and vote like.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-useless-in-PT.

@Answer at OP, Yoshida interview on French already stated that DRG will be Top Dps, so MP or not, it doesn't matter. it look like our PGL is going to be some weak class that PT does not want :/

What kind of PT would like a 2nd-rate Dps that can't even consistently use their main DD skill as mp insufficient. DRG not need mp, have higher regen TP rate, and still do best Dps.... PGL only role will be solo :/

Just wanted to comment, I don't see PGL as being "stretched too thin" by having tanking abilities. Both MRD and PGL seem to fill a similar role, and that is the off-tank. The off-tank is basically someone good enough to tank regular xp mobs, and in an xp party his job would be to take on the additional mobs that show up. During an event, the off-tank is useful when there are secondary mobs that are summoned, which are not as powerful as the main boss. You get your MRD or PGL to tank them, kill them quickly, and then resume damaging the main boss.

PGL and MRD are both most useful when they are in a tanking position, due to their counterattacks and defensive abilities. However, they are both more offensive than GLA, and I see PGL as being more effective against single targets (as in, higher damage) than MRD (MRD's deal is damaging and getting enmity on several targets).

The only "pure" DD is LNC, and taking only LNC may indeed be the best idea if there's no additional mobs, and not an abundance of AoE. However, seeing as FFXIV seems to be encouraging the "party of players versus a party of mobs" style of play they originally mentioned, I feel off-tanks will be a useful addition as time goes on.

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Originally Posted by Alise

For those who concern problem as PGl role in PT, please look at this thread and vote like.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-useless-in-PT.

@Answer at OP, Yoshida interview on French already stated that DRG will be Top Dps, so MP or not, it doesn't matter. it look like our PGL is going to be some weak class that PT does not want :/

What kind of PT would like a 2nd-rate Dps that can't even consistently use their main DD skill as mp insufficient. DRG not need mp, have higher regen TP rate, and still do best Dps.... PGL only role will be solo :/

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This is how I feel.

The problem I see is that PGL is attempting to be a little bit of everything, while relying on MP. In a game where it takes a casual player only a month month to cap all classes, there will always be a better option than PGL.

Want DD? LNC/DRG is your best choice
Want a single target tank? GLA/PLD is your best choice, MRD/WAR would likely also do very well here, I assume (highest HP cap).
Want crowd control? MRD/WAR is your best choice.
Need ranged physical damage? ARC is your best choice
Need a buffer? BRD is your man.
Need elemental nukes/damage? THM/BLM is your best choice.
Healing? CON/WHM.

PGL, however, can do a little bit of each, minus the heals and buffs. It will likely excel at nothing, and is further hampered by needing to rely on its MP pool, which means less MP for self cures/buffs.

The way the leveling curve is now, there is absolutely no excuse for anyone to be lacking the optimal class for any certain situation anymore. I don't think we'll ever see "Raid/BC {Do you need it} 7/8 PGL please /tell"

Wherever off-tanks are needed, PGL and MRD will be needed.

Now, it is SE's duty to create encounters like this. Oh, what did you say? Moogle Primal is actually a many vs. many encounter? What a coincidence.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

This is how I feel.

The problem I see is that PGL is attempting to be a little bit of everything, while relying on MP. In a game where it takes a casual player only a month month to cap all classes, there will always be a better option than PGL.

Want DD? LNC/DRG is your best choice
Want a single target tank? GLA/PLD is your best choice, MRD/WAR would likely also do very well here, I assume (highest HP cap).
Want crowd control? MRD/WAR is your best choice.
Need ranged physical damage? ARC is your best choice
Need a buffer? BRD is your man.
Need elemental nukes/damage? THM/BLM is your best choice.
Healing? CON/WHM.

PGL, however, can do a little bit of each, minus the heals and buffs. It will likely excel at nothing, and is further hampered by needing to rely on its MP pool, which means less MP for self cures/buffs.

The way the leveling curve is now, there is absolutely no excuse for anyone to be lacking the optimal class for any certain situation anymore. I don't think we'll ever see "Raid/BC {Do you need it} 7/8 PGL please /tell"

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I see PGL taking the same role MRD has. It may not have as much HP, but it has plenty of defensive options.

The Monk = not best HP thing irritates me very much...

Oh, the everlasting rage.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

The Monk = not best HP thing irritates me very much...

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But they do have the best, native, non-magical HP recovery ability.

Monks are supposed to have the best HP pool, mostly because they have light armor, its something I liked about the class, whats the point of giving HP to classes that can wear heavy armor... anyway I just dont like that at all, at least we got decent HP and not mage HP.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

Monks are supposed to have the best HP pool, mostly because they have light armor

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Nailed it in one.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

Monks are supposed to have the best HP pool, mostly because they have light armor, its something I liked about the class, whats the point of giving HP to classes that can wear heavy armor... anyway I just dont like that at all, at least we got decent HP and not mage HP.

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We don't know if jobs will have different stats or pools compared to classes.
Even if they don't it's simple, pgl/mnk received increased evasion to compensate.
The HP pool is the last thing I've heard anyone complain about.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Another thing to consider is the cooldown of both Pgl WS 5 and 8. If we can absorb MP faster than we can spend it with the other abilities, fantastic.

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Based on the wording of the following

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Type
The following types of actions exist:
Abilities (Abl.)
Abilities can be performed instantaneously with no risk of interruption. Barring a few exceptions, abilities are governed by a recast timer only.
Weaponskills (WS)
Weaponskills are offensive actions performed with your weapon. Barring a few exceptions, weaponskills require TP to perform.
Magic (Mag.)
Magic, or spells, are actions that require MP to perform. Barring a few exceptions, magic is subject to a casting time.

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It sounds like they may remove timers from weapon skills in favor of TP only weapon skills. (with the exception of evade parry miss or block for a few actions)

Iam not "really" complaining about anything, I just state things I dont like :P
I was used to expect some things fron "Monk" and I see something different, but its ok, Ill give it its fair chance.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

Iam not "really" complaining about anything, I just state things I dont like :P
I was used to expect some things fron "Monk" and I see something different, but its ok, Ill give it its fair chance.

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I understand, I played monk in 11 as well.
I'm hoping to see pug/mnk get some nice evasion trait, so it stops feeling like we
only have better evasion when are buffs are up.