No more pacification macros. (Warrior)
No more stoneskins between pulls. (Paladin)
Whenever I see DRK in a 4-man dungeon, I am like this will be a good run. (Just don't trigger living dead... ever. I'd rather you die.)
Why I love Dark Knight...
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10-22-2016, 03:55 PMplatorepublicWhy I love Dark Knight...
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10-22-2016, 04:17 PMAlistaire
Neither of those tanks should be doing either of those things.
On the other hand, you can make your own bad habits if you really miss doing those on the other tanks:
Set Flash as a crossclass skill. (This one's actually useful if you find yourself in a bad party and want to be kicked)
Party line edgelord macros. (Bonus points if you make one for Dark Arts)
Tell people you don't use Darkside because you find it "annoying". (I've seen this)
I'm sure you can think of more as well. If you've been playing this game long enough at all, you'll know it's really not hard to be bad. -
10-22-2016, 04:41 PMplatorepublicYou are missing the point. I am a healer main and I never play tank. Re-read my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire
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10-22-2016, 04:46 PMZhaneXThat is plain and simple the most obvious way to spot an inexperienced Dark Knight. I know because I used to keep it off most of the time, only putting it on for bosses since I didn't want to bother with mana management during trash mob pulls. I started keeping it on at all times as I became more accustomed and comfortable playing the job over time. It stopped feeling "Annoying" to have to bother with managing MP during trash, and just became natural and easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire
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10-22-2016, 07:58 PMKabzy
I'm the opposite. Even after all this time I find DRK to be the squishiest and generally they require a lot more effort to heal in dungeons. WAR brings more DPS and personal healing so it's a faster run, and PLDs pretty much don't require me to leave Cleric Stance ever.
I guess it comes down to your own experiences. ;p -
10-22-2016, 08:44 PMKamui_Argent
I always prepare myself mentally when the tank is a Dark Knight. Based on my highly limited and biased opinion, DRK are the tanks that usually have to be babied the most. Maybe it's because they have a lot of buttons to press or whatever. And I've stopped using my WHM during DF runs because I despise being paired with DRKs. The extra effort of coordinating my Holy spam with his Blood Price becomes annoying after doing it over and over, when i can just stick to my main, SCH, and DPS the hell out of all dungeons irregardless of tank.
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10-23-2016, 01:50 AMmyahele
I agree with others. DRK seems to be the squishiest Tant, at least in my opinion.
PLD have alot of damage mitigating abilities. WARs have large HP + pretty good self-heal to the point where they can -occasionally- solo dungeon boss when everyone else died. DRK just seem very ...squishy. When I play as WHM I have to be ware of when I Holy since stunning mobs = no MP regen for the DRK. -
10-23-2016, 07:24 PMSupersunJust throwing this out there. The Pld wouldn't have to be casting Stoneskin between pulls if you were doing it already :PQuote:
Originally Posted by platorepublic
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10-23-2016, 08:12 PMAlistaireOr they just don't have to regardless because it's not needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersun
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10-23-2016, 08:25 PMSupersunThe point of Stoneskin isn't because it's needed to help keep the tank alive. The point is to buy the healer a few additional seconds of time before they have to cancel clerics stance and start healing. From the perspective of a Scholar that Stoneskin can be the difference between the full Bio II, Miasma, Bio, Bane on a big pull or having to cancel early because the tank is getting wrecked by the big pull (and Gubal Hard definitely has a few large pulls where this can happen)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire
Either way, unless you are running out of MP (...seriously?) there's no reason the healer shouldn't be casting Stoneskin at the end of the pull while the tank runs ahead and then the healer uses Sprint to catch up. Like there's virtually no reason not to do it. -
10-23-2016, 08:34 PMSpookyGhost
In 4man stuff DRK is pretty amazing to heal as long as they're played well. Being able to sprint, then at the end of the pull pop CD + BP, put down SE, and spam Abyssal x inf. You can even do stuff like DA Dark Dance after BP to keep the mitigation going, as well as apply Reprisal to hard hitting mobs (since it's oGCD and won't cost you any uptime).
However...
When a DRK is bad they become pretty paper thin. Especially at lower levels where DRK doesn't have most of it's toolkit they're basically a PLD minus it's shield. These are the ones that are simply a pain to heal and the ones that generally give healers the idea that DRK in a 4man = bad times ahead. -
10-23-2016, 08:42 PMCookieMonstaThats cuz DRK is actually the least intuitive and most active Tank class. Even achieving and maintaining basic durability is a challenge that requires some in-depth class know how (see Darkside and Grit), most of their skills are not so simple as popping rampart and AFK. This low skill floor is the reason the majority of DF DRK are terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by myahele
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10-23-2016, 08:47 PMAlistaireAll of that is for the healer to manage, not for the tank to slow down the run by casting it on themselves thinking they're helping. So my point stands. For a scholar all stoneskin between pulls is going to do is make the fairy's first embrace go later when I'm not controlling it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersun
...and none of that means I don't use it (I do) but it's not necessary and certainly not a thing for the tank to stop to do. -
10-23-2016, 11:15 PMAhrniel
Dark Knights at least have a very solid AoE tanking unlike Paladins and Warriors. Paladins are just bad and Warriors have Cone AoE attack, I've seen many people miss a few mobs constantly because of it. I have to admit I feel better when there is a Dark Knight as tank than any other tank, they are more reliable in their role. They do take damage, but that is something healers should be glad that happens, because honestly, a well geared Paladin just makes you want to leave the dungeon, there is nothing to heal there.
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10-23-2016, 11:29 PMADVSSits because they virtually have no self healing, and deiinately no on demand burst heal comparable to equilibrium.clemency. Even their oh shit button will kill them without being babied by a healer, which is at least one of my complaints about the tank "balance" in regards to it, whilst other drk feel the job is so perfect, to adjust any little thing about it is heresy imo as a tank its too reliant on healers and outside sources to even do a marginally acceptable job that the other two can do as well if not betterQuote:
Originally Posted by Kamui_Argent
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10-23-2016, 11:38 PMRawrz
I loooove annoying berserk macros. Can't always see when they pop berserk on the party list and I usually have my volume down, so I won't hear it. Fey Caress and the Wardens Paean say hello. :] <3
Reason I dislike DRK as an SCH:
Living Dead is not worth allowing to happen. It is more worth my time to keep you alive than to let it proc. It's a complete DPS loss, since it will take me multiple Aetherflows and GCDS just to let you live. I see holmgang and Ill let you drop. A precasted embrace and a lustrate is all you need. Smart Wars will self heal as well as it ends. -
10-24-2016, 01:00 AMClaire_PendragonIt only procs if they die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrz
I can then only assume if u mean they rely soley on it, while having CDs to spare.
If there is an "oh sh*t" situation I wasnt expecting, I will try to slap CDs before it, in an attempt to survive, but if I die with both a CD and living dead up, then the prior statement doesnt apply.
If I am out of potent CDs for tank busters (usually when the OT dies too often, like in Sophia EX, and I eat every single tank buster, or reprisal refuses to proc, leaving me short on CDs sooner than expected) then Living dead becomes my CD (which I try to pair with Blood Bath if it's up, along with soul eater, regardless if I'm unable to spare more MP for more DA+SE, and maybe even healing potions)
The only time living dead is really bad, is for 4 man content dungeons, when u mass pull, as living dead isnt good as a means to ignore dmg. (As you're supposed to cut down how much healers need to heal you with those sort of pulls, not increase it.) But in EX/Savage bosses, it's understandable that stuff happens that you couldnt have prevented yourself.
I would like them, if they ONLY said "3 seconds till pacification" and did NOT say anything else, nor use <se.#> (Same with raise macros with a lot of extra text and the annoying sound effect.) as that extra stuff is too distracting in Savage content, or even easier content, when new, and you're on "hyper aware" mode, trying to learn the fight.Quote:
WAR zerk macro
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10-24-2016, 09:09 AMIlan
Some comments are weird. As long as a player can play the tank class they are the same to heal. And a DRK deals not that so much less dps than a WAR if played right. Your issues with DRK are just that you find the average bad DF players who are not able to play a DRK right and of course you will say that a PLD is easier to heal since he is so easy that you can play this class while sleeping...
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10-24-2016, 09:04 PMFluffernuff
ehhh... DRK is only squishy if they dont really utilize their abilities. A pld that never uses sheltron or rampart is gonna feel paper-thin and a WAR without vengeance or RI is probably gonna roll over without a band-aid.
on trash pulls, DRK has by far the best mitigation of all 3 tanks- every 60s. meaning every single pull. AoE blind+evasion is certainly a thing. a DRK allowing for Holy and then pulling that out of their hat? congrats. you havent needed to heal. at all. until the boss. On top of that, they still have their shadowskin and shadow wall (ALMOST copy-paste from the almighty pld). Bosses is where you kinda get that whole "hierarchy" but since bosses are just mechanics+autos, it's... not really much to compare. no tanks should be 1-shot outside of.... mechanics.
Actually, of the 3, just mitigation-wise, WAR is the weakest of the 3. they have strong tools, just not as many of them. But its further offset by the fact their tank stance doesnt actually reduce incoming damage.
Main reason why DRK can't "solo" most content compared to PLD or WAR and the reason why WAR CAN is.... sustain. You see, WAR can heal itself. Alot. and quickly. without draining any resources. Pld can too, and on top of that, it has 10s of invincibility. DRK has access to a single leech (well 2, but it's AoE and weaker). a leech weakened by it being tied to -20% damage done. a leech that costs roughly ~1/3rd of their total mana and cannot be spammed. Seriously... its a 2-3k heal every 7.5 seconds.....5 times at best
DRK can reduce ALOT of damage, but it simply has no tools to restore what slips through. I would hardly call that "squishy" though.
Seriously, in terms of incoming damage, all 3 tanks are on even ground... it's like we all have 3 different tank armors and they all have different stats and WAR somehow has more stats just because they have the best self-healing...even though they actually take more damage...
Now, if we're tanking RAIDS, well... I'm no raider, but I have to stand back and pause... Surely there's a reason DRK is firmly in a MAIN tank position. I highly doubt a tank unable to take enough punishment would be thrown in the line of fire... -
10-25-2016, 06:19 PMFernosaurThis is wrong in many, many levels, particularly if we are talking about 4-man dungeons, and SPECIALLY trash pulls. Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain + Blood Price makes DRK literally unkillable for the duration of those CDs, and not only does that heal them for amounts that increase when there are more enemies, it also deals a lot of damage and keeps their MP up. A good DRK is very, very easy to heal through trash. This applies to all three tanks, though, particularly on Scholar. A good WAR will do a similar combo with Equilibrium, Decimate, Overpower and Bloodbath, and PLD can literally solo tank+heal almost every pull in the game, letting the healers DPS through everything regardless of what class they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
DRK is pretty well balanced right now if you ask me. I'd even say on the slightly weaker side of the raid tanking scales. It very hardly depends on your healers' abilities to DPS, and the fight you're going into.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffernuff
4/5ths of the new content has physical heavy-hitting attacks, so DRK can find themselves on the weaker side of the defensive spectrum for this tier, which can mean less healer DPS. They bring more personal DPS to the table and also Reprisal, but PLD's capability to tank physical stuff and the fact that Rage of Halone reduces Str and can have 100% uptime (which would be a DPS loss for the Paladin but perhaps a DPS gain for the healers) make DRK, imho, the weakest of the three tanks for the current raid tier, though not in a level where it has too much impact on the meta anyways.
I personally prefer healing PLDs, but I don't care if it's a DRK instead.
...Unless I'm solo healing a hard 8-man on SCH, because Living Dead causes me more troubles than it saves -_- -
10-27-2016, 04:14 PMFluffernuffIndeed! I would agree on a boss encounter with 1 enemy (Raids), DRK falls just a tad bit shorter of the 2. Not so much HARDER to heal, but just lurking around the tanking forums, it seems that DRK just doesnt have enough effective tools in a longer 1 enemy fight to keep up with the tankbusters... or rather they simply have too many longer cooldowns. but I do agree, all 3 tanks are totally interchangeable, and it's amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernosaur
My last sentence was more of a snark than anything. If DRK is so hopelessly squishy, then why would ANYONE want it taking all the hits? Obviously, no one would and DRK wouldnt be MT over a PLD... IF this were the case.
oh jeez, LD.... I forgot that existed because it just never comes up for me... Apparently it has it's uses in savage as an extra cooldown, but it's downside is just so anti-tank it boggles my mind... It just has that much more added coordination/communication that the other 2 "oh sh!t" buttons WAR and PLD don't have... Its like a "worse" Holmgang with a longer CD and a HG that kills you on a shorter CD. Holmgang CAN get you killed, sure, but it wasn't the effect of holmgang that killed you.
not to mention that LD actually becomes WORSE the better gear DRK has- it makes that healing requirement HARDER to heal outside of a WHM benediction. it'd rather silly. clearly not USELESS, but still...so, so silly. -
10-27-2016, 06:48 PMFernosaurAs a side note that I forgot to add: In the long run, and as this raid tier becomes more and more obsolete and more focused on farming A12S for the weapons and body pieces, DRK will slowly become the preferred tank over PLD because PLD struggles a lot with the vast amount of magical tank busters in A12S. DRK, on the other hand, has Dark Mind on a very very short cooldown, which offers ridiculously good survivability on that fight, and, as said earlier, offers better DPS windows for healers, which only boosts DRK's own superior DPS output. Through progression on A9, 10 and 11, PLD is better. In the long run of this patch cycle, DRK will be the better MT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffernuff
And about Living Dead: While I don't think Living Dead is amazing, I don't think it's AS bad as it's usually painted. The balance between the three invulnerabilities is interesting. All three of them can be used to extend periods of healer and tank DPS by quite vast amounts of time, the most simple one being Hallowed Ground, of course, since it gives both healers and MT 10 seconds of not giving two shits and DPSing to the heart's content. However, the 7 minute CD hurts quite a bit, particularly in magical fights where PLD is already starved for defense.
Holmgang, by contrast, offers the least amount of free DPS uptime at 6 seconds, but can be used every three minutes, which gives WAR an invincibility every time PLD and DRK would be using Sentinel or Shadow Wall. This allows the least healer DPS out of the three.
Finally, Living Dead, as you said, requires more coordination. When taken to its full extent, Living Dead can give 20 full seconds of invulnerability to allow both the DRK and healers to DPS to heart's content. The trade-off being the need to get the DRK back to full, of course. With a White Mage, this is very easy, particularly because both Benediction and LD share a 5 minute cooldown, so when planned right, these two skills can be used to allow for 10-19 seconds of full DPS, specially considering WHM doesn't even need to hop out of CS to use Benediction. AST doesn't care much for the healing requirement because ED and Synastry+Benefic II work wonders for LD. If there are two healers, a Scholar's fairy will very likely cover any HP amounts the AST couldn't get because of non-crits or whatnot. A combo of WHM+AST won't care, of course, because of Benediction.
For a solo Scholar, however, I've found that LD is more hassle than it is worth. To get the DRK back to full HP you need around 5 or 6 seconds as a Scholar, maybe even more. Only three Embraces will manage to go out, you'll probably have to use Emergency Tactics on Adloquium, and you'll very likely find yourself spending at least two AF stacks on Lustrating the tank. The biggest hurt is those two stacks (from a pure DPS perspective, this really hurts Sch bc of Enerdy Drain) and being forced to use ET, since it has a better use when used with Succor. The later is just my personal opinion, though. Anyways, the point is that Living Dead is actually pretty good imo, it's just the rare situation of a solo Scholar that makes the skill awfully inconvenient and a drain of resources.
Luckily, for A12S, Dark Mind is in such a stupidly short recast timer (at 60 secs) that Living Dead I don't think will ever have a need to come up.
Whoops... Sorry! Wrote way more than I intended! -
10-28-2016, 02:19 AMClaire_Pendragon
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LIVING DEAD
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the actual effective "invulnerability" of its effect isnt actually 20seconds. Nor is it actually 10 seconds.
If I activate it 9 seconds before the tank buster, those 9 seconds didnt need to be spent healing, regardless of which tank pops their invulnerability on the last second tank buster.
If the tank buster comes early, then the remaining seconds disappear, as they now start the next phase of living dead, which requires you to heal them up to full in the next 10 seconds.
If you heal them to full at the very 1st second, then their invulnerability ends.
So technically it "can" be a literal 1 second duration invulnerability.
I personally like the "concept" of Living dead, but as people pointed out, there are small flaws in it's design.
I feel the concept should remain, with only small tweeks.
(1) The amount needed to be healed should only be their base HP w/o gear.
or/and
(2) Increase the amount of time needed to heal them before they die by 3 seconds.
With at least one of those changes, Living Dead will be a unique invulnerability, w/o just feeling like the "lesser" of the 3. -
10-28-2016, 04:17 AMbardabooOr ya know... dps instead??? Thus making the dungeon go faster?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahrniel
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10-29-2016, 08:26 PMPixelmancerStoneskin on tanks is a waste of MP. It gets knocked off instantly and constantly. It's just good for keeping DPS from being 1 shotted if they stand in something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersun
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10-29-2016, 09:25 PMAverax
I like the pacification macros, like the simple ones, not the over the top ones. Just as an indicator so i know it's coming.
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10-30-2016, 04:01 PMDeceptusCan't believe I'm reading that from a healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixelmancer
Effective HP is effective HP. If a tank has 30K hp and a Tank buster does 31K damage tank is dead. But if you stoneskin said tank during the TB cast and bring him up to 33K HP, he lives. Stoneskin, Adloquinium and Aspected Benefit (shield) are really important skills. -
10-31-2016, 01:22 AMAlphaFoxI dunno, personally don't mind it as long as its tasteful. If its just a simple 'Berserk Up' I am all for it, lets me know so I can try to remove it when it hits or if I am bard will toss Warden's paean. When its like "10secs to pacify<se>, 5<se>, 4<se>....DO IT NOW!" Thats when I roll my eyes and just let them keep it.Quote:
Originally Posted by platorepublic
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10-31-2016, 06:42 AMIlanYeah a total waste. Just like tanks who keep hate and dps who deals dps and does mechanics right...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixelmancer
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10-31-2016, 12:38 PMThunda_Cat_SMASHGod, I hate those macros. :c I quit playing War because literally everyone would ask why I don't use a macro for it. No thanks, if I see a berserk macro I'm letting them sit pacified. The DPS loss isn't worth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrz
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10-31-2016, 03:05 PMFernosaurYou're not wrong! This is why I mentioned that Living Dead requires more coordination. There are very few fights that have unscripted tank busters anyways, the only ones I can think of being Ramuh EX and more recently A9S, in which more than "unscripted" the TBs, if you wanna call them that, are powerful and frequent cleaves. Throughout the other fights, practice will let you know exactly when a tank buster or big hit is coming, so if you pop Living Dead 8-7 seconds before the tank buster hits and you communicate about it with your healer, they can get into cleric and let you take chip damage that won't really matter for the TB anyways, since you'll be invulnerable to death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon
The 20 seconds extension is a mathematical stretch, yes. In reality, the most uptime you'll get out of Living Dead is probably around 15-16 seconds, which is still quite lengthy in MMO-land!