Drk tanking outside of grit

Assuming pug situations where even if you have a ninja it is very likely they don't use silhouette, How exactly does drk maintain a threat lead over a warrior offtank in fights where you can go the majority, if not all, of the fight without tank stance being needed?

Even peppering in some power slash combos, the war is using their enmity combo the entire fight, does drk just rely on the opening lead? Is ninja required for such situations for drk (outside of the warrior doing path instead of bb)

Just curious if anyone has any numbers on drk enmity generation vs warriors outside of tank stances.

I don't have issues holding hate when playing drk, just feel like I'm sacrificing a lot just to stay ahead, and while it's mainly my drks gear at the moment, It just has me thinking the situation really isn't going to change given that the warrior is generating more enmity through combos than the drk when both DPSing.

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Originally Posted by InvincibleShield

the war is using their enmity combo the entire fight

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Found your problem.

The only problem might be Berserk right after tank swap. Just Power Slash a bit more. If the WAR is using enmity combo as OT, slap them.

DRK just relies on the opening lead. You want to try to estimate at the start how much of a lead you need before you turn off Grit. If you find yourself misjudging it, then you can correct for it on the start of the next pull.

If you have a NIN who isn't using Shadewalker/Smokescreen, it's probably worthwhile to request it, especially if this isn't a once off thing (like DF).

Your WAR shouldn't be causing enmity issues, as long as there is parity between your gear. It's their responsibility to stay below you in enmity. If this becomes a point of contention, it may be worthwhile analysing what their Maim uptime is. When a WAR causes enmity problems, you'll generally also find that their Maim/SE uptime is terrible. Sometimes showing someone that their BB overusage resulted in a 10% dps loss helps them to see the light.

In the off-chance that your WAR does accidentally catch up in enmity, just try to arrange for a smooth hand-off between the two of you so that it doesn't affect the rest of your raid's positionals and dps. Wait and take back aggro at the next natural swap. It shouldn't really matter, so long as you both know how to do each others' roles and have available cooldowns.

Imo if you as MT lose aggro to a dps or healer, it's your fault, but if you lose aggro to the OT, then it's the OT's fault for not watching their aggro. Spamming butcher's block combo for that extra 20 potency over storm's eye combo isn't worth it if the MT has to use their aggro combo more than necessary.

My static uses a Paladin main (use regularly uses sword oath) and a warrior off tank.
I'm regularly using Butchers Block, as it's part of the rotation. My PLD isn't regularly using RoH according to him, only for a quick enmity burst during a tank swap.

Is Dark Knight so underpowered in the enmity department that people want others to change their rotations? That's absolutely insane.

My OT Opener as WAR is and will allways be Sorm's Eye with Berserk and IR then Butschers Block and Double Fell Cleave. (somtimes tripe, depends on enemy). After that I rotate between Storm's Eye and Storm's Path and keep my Dot up. Sometimes I throw randomly a Butchers Block into the Rotation.

The only issues I have as a Drk main is with good DPS in most DF roulettes I can use 1 threat combo then swap out for the rest of the fight as well as doing it in the Alex normals + EX trials and Savage when I am doing the on my raid days. If i'm with my monk static buddy in a dungeon by the time the boss is at 50% i'll have to go back into grit for a bit to get ahead again then i'll swap out once i'm good, also to note in my static I have a nin giving me Shadewalker and Smoke screening our most bursty DPS it's either our Blm or Monk.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Is Dark Knight so underpowered in the enmity department that people want others to change their rotations? That's absolutely insane.

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I wouldn't say it's underpowered but Paladin has Savage blade into Royal Authority, War can Butcher's Block while keeping Eye/Path up, Drk? It just has Darkside + Dark Arts which is great DPS however it's emnity is a bit lacking but it's still doable for sure i've never had any issues with threat, if I lose threat as a MT then it's my fault.

Also hello fellow Canadian we meet again :3

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Is Dark Knight so underpowered in the enmity department that people want others to change their rotations? That's absolutely insane.

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It basically comes down to the fact that Savage Blade has a high enmity multiplier, whereas none of the DRK DPS rotations (Delirium vs SE) actually generate extra enmity. If RA combo'd off of Riot Blade there's a chance Paladins would have more issues with SwO aggro too. So yeah, over the course of the fight an OT WAR might have to use SE over and over again, but it makes more sense for us to use SE and let the DRK get more Soul Eaters than it is for us to force them to power slash. Our minor (30p) loss is pretty insignificant compared to it.

Edit: But the above only really relates to tank swaps when the tanks have a small aggro margin between them. In normal tank-swap-less fights the DRK should have 0 aggro issues.

As mentioned above, the extra enmity makes PLD main tanking in Sword Oath rather easy with WAR off tanks.
If we were to solely compare delirium to butchers block, butchers will get 10 potency over the DRK.
But that combo grants MP and eventual Soul Eaters, which is the better dmg.
(Plus if you ignore Fell Cleave, you could in theory only do BB every 3rd combo, rather than every other combo)

Now since Fell Cleave takes up a GCD, and so does Fracture, you "should" be keeping up SE/SP (w/o NIN) which prevents the use of BB when you need to apply Fracture and Fell Cleave.
Any extra dmg you deal from BB can easily be made up elsewhere from those buffs (if your other PT members are up to the task, this shouldnt ever be an issue)

So I'd have to say it isnt too crazy to suggest the WAR use BB at the end of their combo, if they have SE/SP/fracture up, and fell cleave isnt ready. (Though on trash mobs SP would probably be useless or less potent in most cases.)

(for a very terrible example, that isnt accurate but should get the general theory across; the extra 20 potency every 6 GCDs, vs having SP up for 6 GCDs, the healer most definitely should get an extra attack in at least once, much less both healers. Other factors change this though obviously)

Are people suggesting that the OT stop using their highest potency DPS combo so that the MT can use their one instead or am I missing something here?

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Originally Posted by Knahli

Are people suggesting that the OT stop using their highest potency DPS combo so that the MT can use their one instead or am I missing something here?

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Did you read peoples responses and are you curious, or are you being sarcastic, despite the explanations?

Or were you the type who asked ASTs to shield instead of SCHs before the buff to AST?
"Are you suggesting the AST stop using their highest mitigation heal so the SCH can use their one instead or am I missing something here?"

think they are suggesting that the OT sacrifice 40 potency every other combo to increase the main tanks dps far more than what the OT is losing, increasing the raid dps as a whole. Or that in a situation where both tanks really don't need their tank stances at all the war should just main tank.

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Originally Posted by Knahli

Are people suggesting that the OT stop using their highest potency DPS combo so that the MT can use their one instead or am I missing something here?

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Yes. People are suggesting that the WAR drop an average of 30 potency per combo so that the DRK gains significantly more MP efficiency, an increase of up to 130 potency per combo, and a raw DPS increase of 25%, in addition to a 15s 10% attack speed buff every 40 seconds.

It's an insignificant loss in DPS for the WAR so that the DRK is capable of making absolutely massive gains in theirs.

I main WAR, but I play DRK on the side. While I'm not the most hardcore player out there, in my two-dozen experiences tanking and clearing Sophia ex with both tanks, I've seen some WARs who believe they should be using BB. Sure, some times it's okay, but in others it's stupid. You get WARs who think "HURR BUT MUH DAMAGE!" thinking they've made the best choice in using BB during berserk, only to let SE fall off and lose 10% on their next eye application assuming they fit in 3 or two FCs and fracture. They think they're doing the best when they're actually not.

In such fights, you want eye up as much as possible. It is in danger of falling off even if you're adhering to eye block alternation strictly, only because the boss jumps around quite a bit and there are moments of lost uptime to keep the buff up. In those instances, the safest thing to do is to spam eye. You're not losing much damage and you're ensuring that you, your MT, and possibly your NIN are enjoying from that SE at all times.

While playing DRK, I once had trouble keeping hate from the WAR ot, and he was getting annoyed. Granted, any OT would be annoyed if the MT couldn't keep hate, but his reason for being annoyed was because he was only using BB after every third rotation. SE, SP, then BB. You can't possibly juggle all 3 combos while using FC and fracture without having SE fall off for a good portion of the fight. He failed to realize that when the tanks are in such a close range of aggro from constant swapping, using BB even once can screw up the balance (especially with gritless DRKs), and that he was letting SE fall off constantly. No, he had to insist he was right and I was pushed into tanking in grit for the remainder of the fight all because he insisted on using BB. I couldn't enjoy all the mana in the world from weapon and price along with the damage, all because he wanted that extra miniscule potency from BB over SE.

tl;dr gritless tanking as DRK is no issue so long as you're pumping out the DPS via enthusiastic use of DA SE. If not, your WAR ot is most likely being very self-centered and short sighted. It's in everyone's best interest if he just spams SE while he OTs.

The key for a successful WAR OT is pretty much looking at enmity bar now and then. Using BB combo is fine until your aggro is almost reaching 1st. It's especially bad if you just tank swap. It's the same dilemma as PLD when cotank swaps, you have to hope for the aggro to stick if you spam RA combo.

Every damage gain is a gain. It's just how you want to control the aggro. You can have people worry about aggro even when the aggro is still 50% of the bar, and you have tanks playing with 99% aggro bar because they know they can do it.

You don't absolutely need huge aggro lead before going Grit-less, you have a lot of mana to play with if you aren't in Grit. 1 more Power Slash combo isn't going to deplete your mana by that much. Do what you can to maintain aggro, or it's just better to let the guy tank for you.

Just putting it out there that you can fit butcher's into a berserk rotation without dropping eye by making it as your first combo in.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

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PLD generates additional enmity throughout the course of a fight, through SB and Shield Swipe procs, so enmity is generally tighter on DRK.

But the bigger problem is this: SE > BB is not a "rotation". It's a priority system. Maim and SE take priority over everything else, and WAR aims to maintain as close to 100% uptime as possible. There's absolutely no point talking about a 20 potency loss every 6 GCDs if you're dropping your 20% damage buff. It's penny wise and pound foolish.

If you're doing this correctly, the ratio of SE to BB isn't anywhere close to 1:1, and enmity shouldn't really be an issue. It's more a problem on inexperienced WARs who assume "Oh, my last combo was SE, so my next one should be BB," without regard for their buff/debuff timers or target swaps. If Maim and SE aren't both up (or are at risk of falling off), BB should not be used. Stop what you're doing and fix it. I've seen people with less than a 50% Maim uptime before as a result of BB overusage. It's atrocious.

It's not just about the fact that forcing a PLD or DRK to use an enmity combo causes a bigger raid dps loss than it is for WAR stop using their enmity combo as offtank. It's the fact that, if you're playing WAR optimally, you shouldn't be causing enmity problems as OT. You'll generate less enmity, but do far more dps.

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Originally Posted by Knahli

Are people suggesting that the OT stop using their highest potency DPS combo so that the MT can use their one instead or am I missing something here?

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BB combo is 20 potency higher than SE combo.

RoH is 90 potency lower than RA / 380 lower than GB (probably slightly less due to the clip idk).

PS is 100 potency lower than SE / Delirium is hard to explain but basically it's a higher loss than just 20 potency due to Syphon Strike vs Spinning Slash.

Sacrificing a 20 potency combo for the PLD/DRK to avoid using their enmity combo is a gain. Truly good WARs recognize how many BBs they can actually do in a fight without ripping, but you also have to account for tank swaps (want to be doing SE before the BB combo to tank swap) and Fracture uptime as well as stack usage. Having a competent NIN gives you more leg room but it's still pretty tricky. If you don't know the ins and outs of a fight, GCD to GCD, it's better to just stick to spamming SE and keeping up Fracture (specifically as OT, if you're tanking then you're free to BB unless a tank swap is coming up).

If the MT has aggro problem ,it is not OT's using enmity combo, it is the MT's deal-with-your-aggro problem

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Originally Posted by Mirch

If the MT has aggro problem ,it is not OT's using enmity combo, it is the MT's deal-with-your-aggro problem

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If you want to have less raid DPS, sure.

If MT has aggro problem, your aggro bar for healers and DPS will also be higher than normal.

This thread wasn't entirely about Drk MT keeping aggro over warrior in a general sense, It was about Drk maintaining a lead over a warrior offtank when the DRk didn't have to use stance for the majority of the fight Without sacrificing a lot of damage to power slashes, and that relies entirely on the warrior offtank when a ninja isn't involved.

a big issue is, like someone mentioned, is that the warrior's strongest combo is the enmity one, while darks is not. square needs to fix this problem, because i have had many times where i could not keep doing my enmity rotation (as then the mp drop is atrocious), as well as without grit, darks enmity is VERY LOW compared to the other two tanks, which is not ok.

problem: the war is constantly doing their enmity combo.
problem: dark damage rotation doesnt boost enmity at all, but is the main rota and needs to be done for mp restoration.
problem: they have berserk. dark knight 'passive berserk' is blood weapon. it comes up more often, but it is locked away with grit... which is stupid and imbalanced.
problem: square made war work well with paladin. they were lazy and sloppy with dark as far is this goes.

i doubt you understand how dark knight works...... it isnt as simple as "you dont know how to tank right" here.

You need to be worried about losing agro to a damage dealer and never think about OT ripping your agro because the gap between you and the OT is enough to do dps without tank stance. You should be on par in terms of dps with a warrior or higher, if you can do that, then you will be fine, if you are losing agro, then you are either undergeared or not doing enough dps. High dps is the key if you want to stay without tank stance as long as possible (until you will start losing it to a damage dealer, then you need to activate Grit, do agro combos and switch it off).

If you dont have a ninja or have a long ass fight with no tank swaps (A11S) then using Carve and Spit into Power Slash combo helps to make a decent agro gap. Or just ask a warrior to pull instead (Unchained + BB combo is op) then switch back.

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Originally Posted by millktea

a big issue is, like someone mentioned, is that the warrior's strongest combo is the enmity one, while darks is not. square needs to fix this problem, because i have had many times where i could not keep doing my enmity rotation (as then the mp drop is atrocious), as well as without grit, darks enmity is VERY LOW compared to the other two tanks, which is not ok.

problem: the war is constantly doing their enmity combo.
problem: dark damage rotation doesnt boost enmity at all, but is the main rota and needs to be done for mp restoration.
problem: they have berserk. dark knight 'passive berserk' is blood weapon. it comes up more often, but it is locked away with grit... which is stupid and imbalanced.

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you are missing an important point: the potencys of all DRK attacks are higher than the potencys of PLD or WAR. this make up for the missing dps-cooldowns and boosts the enmity generation.

DRK already has the highest dps in tank-stance out of the 3 tanks, if they were allowed to use blood weapon in tank-stance, THIS would be stupid and imbalanced.

Or you can just stay in Grit...

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Originally Posted by TenZer0

Or you can just stay in Grit...

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Some people prefer playing the game rather than AFKing through content.

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Originally Posted by TenZer0

Or you can just stay in Grit...

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And in doing so, suffer a 15% DPS loss (20% without Darkside), less MP regen and a complete loss of 10% weaponskill cast time reduction. Basically, don't leave Grit on unless you absolutely have to.

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Originally Posted by InvincibleShield

Some people prefer playing the game rather than AFKing through content.

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Playing the game? AFKing through content lol? That must explain why I have everything at 60 then..hmm...

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And in doing so, suffer a 15% DPS loss (20% without Darkside), less MP regen and a complete loss of 10% weaponskill cast time reduction. Basically, don't leave Grit on unless you absolutely have to.

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Oh wait..sorry..forgot I was a tank -_-

Basically..leave Grit on, and stance dance...

It's a matter of efficiency. If you're familiar with the fight, you can manage your cds while tanking the boss without straining the healers too much, dropping grit and maximizing dps is a good thing. Same thing as healers pushing dps while not needing to heal.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

It's a matter of efficiency. If you're familiar with the fight, you can manage your cds while tanking the boss without straining the healers too much, dropping grit and maximizing dps is a good thing. Same thing as healers pushing dps while not needing to heal.

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This right here^