Well here I am again, my sissy posting for me. Anyways me, Momo of balmung found out something about the market board. I hear a lot of people say that know what is going on that gil is worthless and have nothing to do with their millions or even billions of gil.
So my guess this is the reason not many actually go out of thier way to be a 24/7 crafter? I am not sure the reason is but in the end of things, I never seen before how one person has so much power. In wow there is too many people and you have a good chance of selling something there just as long it is a reasonable price for the item. So this makes i very hard for one person controlling it. In FFXI there was the anonymously factor. In FFXI, I think how long something was sitting there end up being a a factor if someone overbid on 2+ prices. On FFXIV, so few people buy and sell things, no matter the level. So it is very easy for one person to control things.
This is where I think the specialist system hurts more then helps. In this situation where there is already a few career crafters, what happens when one person is so into it makes an alt account and have all the specialist crafts anyway? So the person can duel box, hit macros and what not and control all the high end markets. furthermore this allows one account keep spamming undercut while the other crafts, basically having full control of the market board because of so few crafters to begin with, even on a high population server such as mine. On lower population servers I hear horror stories where one person would just keep buying other people's items and hike them, having even more control then what i am experiencing with the 250 items on Balmung. These things take a lot of gil and time to craft, and having to camp the market board on top of this just to get a sale under someone so controlling is an insult.
Can anything be done? did the development team really look into what the specialist system is causing? Do they see the effects it can cause more harm then good? If it did not exist at all, at least more casual people would have options to try get around someone so controlling. For the most part I feel the economic system of FFXIV falls short and I always felt this was a problem 2.0 + where the only way to get real sales is to be the only one selling it. Keep in mind I do get sales, fighting undercutting this person, but I feel to do so wastes so much time and even with that, not many get sales compared to the person in control with the 3 characters, including myself and others. I just feel it is a hypocritical stance to say "Reselling houses for lots of more gil" is a violation, while market board overcontrol isn't.
Anyways Momo (the first person reference of the post) would like to thank GM Elrindonar doing thier best to address this issue and redirecting her here.
Gm Elrindonar told Momo to post here on a market board issue
Printable View
-
10-09-2016, 03:18 PMSnow_PrincessGm Elrindonar told Momo to post here on a market board issue
-
10-15-2016, 11:20 AMSnow_Princess
Apparently a different gm felt it was in the wrong section. What are the feelings on how easy it is for one person to control the markets?
-
10-15-2016, 11:52 AMMikeWW
I think it is possible for a person to control the market, but the main deterrent is that there is no point to keep on accumulating gil for most players. Goldsellers and people whose primary source of income is flipping (buying at low price, jack up price, maybe corner market) are the only people who really benefit from controlling the market. Once the market has been cornered enough, people usually start gathering/running content to to undercut the people trying to corner the market. Admittedly, a persistent player could keep on cornering the market despite this and make a lot of gil, but again there is little real reason to keep on accumulating gil past a certain point.
I don't think the solution is to remove specialist requirements though. By removing specialist requirements, it actually becomes easier for a person to control the market with just one character, since you no longer need to invest time and money into a second character. Someone who crafts a lot can make friends with other crafters to obtain specialist ingredients at reasonable prices, thereby bypassing people trying to corner the market.
IMO, cornering the market by just gathering and crafting a lot should be allowed, unless it is done by a goldseller, in which case please ban. But cornering the market by flipping is just bad, it makes it harder for people to obtain goods, and those flippers gain gil without contributing anything. I believe flippers should be punished, either with suspension, ban, or suspension of some activities like access to marketboard. -
10-15-2016, 11:53 AMMihaelB
What I don't get is what purpose do you have beyond 500Mil? Billion? Why?
The highest gil sink is mansions and that won't be accessible I assume on Balmung even if you pay a premium.
Besides that, pentamelds? Do that many players even bother?
And in regards to camping i250s, that's what you get for trying to engage in a hot trending market. Everyone will try to jump in on it and if you want to stay engaged, you'll need to take the 'insults'.
I think the majority of us happily float by 5-100Mil and don't really care enough about economic manipulation as it doesn't affect us that much. It's not like it requires much effort either to pump out 10-20mil if you really try and that's all you'll need to satisfy your spending for a patch assuming you don't splurge on minions/furniture/glamour in the very first week. -
10-15-2016, 01:07 PMalimdiaDifferent strokes for different folks.Quote:
Originally Posted by MihaelB
Some people enjoy seeing their exp bar go up, some people enjoy seeing their ilevel or damage go up, others enjoy seeing their gil go up, even if they never spend it. -
10-15-2016, 01:54 PMRyuSaarvaI don't really care how high my gil mountain grows but that retainer has sold an item message makes me feel happy inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by alimdia
-
10-15-2016, 09:59 PMSnow_PrincessThat is one of the issues I was trying to point out. Not many people bother in continuing trying to make gil though crafting because of this. There is tons of items from level 1-60 where only one to three people make. This includes top end items, though in some cases some top end items do have more competition then that, but for the most part (and I am guilty of this on some items) one person controls the pricing of any given item. With how this game gives you exp though leves and such, why is it so easy for 1 person to have all the specialists to control whatever they chose to control, giving them even more power?Quote:
Originally Posted by MihaelB
Having a poor economic system has always been an issue with me since 2.0 and I am confused why this hasn't been addressed at all. It is just too easy for one person to control things in the current state.
Now because the people that want to collect gil have so little competition because of this, and with the lack of gil sinks, they move on with housing exploitation. (there is simply not enough things to do with your gil) SE clearly disagrees with such acts but people do that on the market boards too and on some servers control the market completely. Why is one case ok and not the other?
~~~Momo -
10-15-2016, 10:20 PMseida
I don't really understand what the problem is.... if it's so "easy" to be a crafter and control the market... why not just do it yourself? Leveling crafters, gearing up etc takes a lot of time and effort - certainly more than I'm willing to put in - so why shouldn't crafters be free to charge what they like? Maybe it depends on your server, but the economics seem fine to me. The 250 stuff was expensive right after the patch, but it's already gone down by so much because more people are making it.
If, as you seem to be implying, only one person it making it... then yeah, they can charge whatever they like. -
10-15-2016, 11:58 PMaesteval"Because they can" is a possible reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWW
-
10-16-2016, 12:23 AMSnow_PrincessBecause my goal is not to be a hypocrite. Just because I can do something, does not mean it is right to do. Plus as said, I did admit doing it in minor amounts, controlling something with lower level things. I just chose not to put the time and energy to keep doing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by seida
Honestly what takes more time and effort is actually making the 250 things, as for leveling the crafting classes themselves? No it isn't and the too fast leveling is an issue when someone chooses to exploit this. Another reason I do not do it, is stated by others. At some point gil is completely worthless so why spend all your time putting energy in abusing a system if there is no real reward other then showing multiple retainers with 999 999 999 gil?
Also I value my time, most seem to disregard this when they spam undercut the auction house. In wow at least you have to pay an upfront fee that seems to curve such actions. Again why should I full time camp the auction house and control the market when in the end of the day, gil is so useless?
Hey I am just here trying to get across the current economy is easily exploitable and confused why SE takes a stance of housing exploitation is bad, while not addressing this at all? my only guess is they do not know how easy it is to exploit and I am here trying to inform of such a thing.
~~~Momo -
10-16-2016, 12:49 AMRethDaron
People will hate to hear this but a centralized market board is one of the big reasons for how easy it is to control the market. Most games with an auction house, market board, etc. have these problems. WoW gets away with it only because there's so many players. From my experience games without a central trading location (ESO, UO, Mabinogi) all have player economies that gives everyone a chance to sell. Those games have a bigger focus on crafted items too, XIV's economy is pretty poor in comparison. 1.0 had a much better base for a good economy but it was too complicated for most people (and people didn't use market wards right).
-
10-19-2016, 01:26 AMSnow_PrincessI agree, 1.0 had a healthier economy.It was not perfect by any means, but much better then 2.0+. For starters I like to see the repair NPC prices and melding prices to be much higher then now while bringing back player repair. My guess is people complained about not finding someone to meld their gear? ever think that came from players not finding it worth doing (looking for work in general) due to the lack of requests?Quote:
Originally Posted by RethDaron
We need more gil sinks, gil needs to be worth something, not just buying minions and 1 million bunnies.
Since I need to speak though someone else, I had more to say about this but couldn't figure out how to put it. So you are basically saying the markets and selling things are restricted to those that play 24/7 and can run the market boards, and you wonder why not many make things to begin with, even on a populated server such as Balmung, most things are run by a select few.Quote:
Originally Posted by seida
In the end of the day I am wondering why only battle stuff is the focus of fixing when the market board problem existed since 2.0
~~~Momo -
10-19-2016, 02:17 AMDarkkenMoneybags
I have to say that I sometimes tend to think some of the Endgame Free Companies are controlling the Central Market Board with a second toon. 1.0 was a decent market system if everyone knew how to use it. I do agree more gil sinks need to be put in place but it also seems they won't do any good with the current ones programmed into the system. Its like they fix it then it somehow goes back in favor to the controller of the MB's. I can only hope for a new and improve system in 4.0 and the ways to get in getting players to see the issue by getting speaking on here and if a GM/Rep comes in the discussion from time to time to keep people from steering the problem away. I feel this is the best logical way of getting heard on here and in-game if you know a way of shouting to get players who also care about the issue.
-
10-19-2016, 02:33 AMAirget"easy" is a bit light. I don't do it but what you are calling easy is, having 2 other alts, going through the 2.0-3.0 story and potentially more later on if they want to use them in 4.0. Then gearing up all 3 characters with the proper gear to craft while obtaining blue scrips for all 3 of the books they need on top of farming the weekly red scrips needed to obtain the gear they need to have enough craft/control to craft what they want all while they have a specialist in everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow_Princess
If someone spends their time playing the game to do that, it's their time, it's wrong to punish a player who took that time all because you feel they control the market heavily.While they might have more flexibility over the market they did put the time to get to that point it's not as if they used an exploit to cheat and get their gear blue/red scrips etc. They had to go through a lot of story, lving a DOW/DOM to get to 60 to reach the point of being able to arrive at the content of their choice and then on top of that most likely lv a majority of DOH to 60 to have the cross-class abilities they needed. -
10-19-2016, 02:47 AMbasketofsealsToo complicated? It was AWFUL. Let's talk like having a centralized market boar has no upsides. It's extremely convenient.Quote:
Originally Posted by RethDaron
-
10-19-2016, 03:48 AMRethDaronBut it stopped the undercutting that people are complaining about. It's convenient, yes. IMO it comes to what your priorities are - a more healthy economy or convenience. I think 1.0 had the former (and not just the lack of a central board, but how crafts are multi-tiered and depended on other crafts more often than not to complete items). I guess that's why I'm still playing XI and only check in with XIV casually after 2.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by basketofseals
One is no better than the other. XI and the new post 2.0 XIV has two very different audiences for most systems. -
10-19-2016, 04:10 AMbasketofsealsI can tell you the vast majority of people who were playing at the time did not like it. If you were looking for something like shards or potions it was fine, but if you wanted to buy or sell rare/niche glamour pieces, you were SOL. If we had the old market system a large majority of stuff would just become vendor trash because the effort of finding it in the marketplace would be more than the effort of just getting it yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by RethDaron
People complain about undercutting everywhere, everytime. It's not a real problem. People just don't like it when their profits visibly go down, but you know what, that's how an economy works. -
10-19-2016, 04:50 AMLineageRazor
If you are on Balmung, what you are witnessing is NOT someone "controlling the market". Balmung is one of the most densely populated servers there is, and has a crafting population to match. The only way anyone could control a market for any length of time is if they are the ONLY wealthy crafter of that item. While I could MAYBE see that happening on a low-population server, it simply will not be the case on Balmung; even the most niche items will have dozens upon dozens of people making it, and anyone who tries to crash the market will run out of cash eventually - and then those dozens of other crafters can easily move back in. It's frankly impossible to scare someone away from a market in this game, because there's simply no threat of bankruptcy involved. If a market gets bad, leave, wait for it to stabilize, then come back. It's not like you have to pay business start-up costs, or have debts or loans to pay off.
Since a GM directed you here, my guess is that you contacted the GMs to complain about undercutting, or to accuse a player of trying to control the market. I can tell you now that no GM will do anything about that; they are completely hands-off when it comes to the economy, and thank God. GMs are not economists (note, neither are most players, which is why you see so many bone-headed market moves in the first place), and trying to "fix" things could only make them worse. They will enforce deals that a player attempts to welch on, but that's another thing entirely. If you are trying to sell an item, and it appears that a player is attempting to control the price of that item, simply leave that market. Keep an eye on it, wait until the player tries to raise the price again, and then sell. Meanwhile, continue to profit on other products instead.
There's also players who mistake the natural decrease in prices of an item as being some player conspiracy. In the case of ilvl 250 gear, it's perfectly normal for the first couple units to sell for a mint, and then for the price to drop considerably over time as more and more crafters try to cash in. The same will happen for the ingredients used to make those items. Before throwing around accusations of market manipulation, best to make sure that the market isn't actually just behaving normally! -
10-19-2016, 04:56 AMRethDaronI'm not here to argue which people liked better, just that they were made for two different audiences. And yes, I referenced people not using the market wards right. They put some heavy taxes if you placed items in the wrong ward later on but it was too late by then. The market wards in 1.0 are like ESO's guild stores now and that game has a great economy. Much better than 2.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by basketofseals
Even if they were to reintroduce wards it'd be for nothing by now though - the item market/economy/crafting in 1.0 is completely different than 2.0+. -
10-19-2016, 05:35 AMChalbee
OP, the market is not that hard to get a piece of. Find an item, invest, sell. If someone else moves on your market, it only takes a few hours to determine whether or not you can float enough cash to call their bluff. From another angle, many common consumables (e.g. silver ingots, walnut lumber) are price-fixed by default. Only a handful of people are selling it, and we all seem to consistently list at about the same price (this is the case on my server at least). If you're talking about big-ticket items, the problem isn't a cornering of the market, the problem is many of them require some pretty outrageous minimum stats, so of course only a few people are making/selling them. The i250 crafted gear needs min. 995 crafting or something crazy like that. How many people are running around your server with those numbers?
Alternative advice: Sell furniture. People will pay unconscionable sums of gil for a couch. -
10-19-2016, 06:54 AMSnow_PrincessYou are not from here, Not a lot of people continuously make things to sell. You might have a random here and there but for the most part all things are controlled by 1-3 people. My guess why this is an issue is because gil is worthless and people do not want to put time in something they will not get something out of. Some people like trying to collect much gil as possible, and those are the people controlling things, and that does include me, only to a lesser extent. I do other things to play with friends and such but even that is wearing thin and thinking about quitting all together. However the poor economy of this game has nothing to do with me wondering if I should quit or not. I am just here saying this is a problem and if you want to ignore that, then that is on you. People are controlling the markets and if you cant see that then its??? (idk) It is something I did myself too on some items, it is easy to keep undercutting someone, till they get tired of it, once theirs sell, I am solo at high price again. (If I was really mean, I could of easily undercut spam them back, buy it low, then sell theirs at a high price with mine, however I do have some self respect and respect in others not doing that.) Still we need to ask ourselves, even on a high pop server such as Balmung how come people do not keep crafting? My answer is people simply do no need to since gil is worthless in the end of things. I am not the only one to say this, as it was repeatedly said on these forums for a while now.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
for the 250 stuff, again I do not care, but it is extremely baffling to see people selling HQ results for less then it costs to make it. There are big problems with the economy and the reason the FF team does nothing is likely because people seem to think there is not one (going by this thread) and that is shocking to me.
I am not complaining about making money. I really do not care this point. My concern is simply, the economy FFXIV has always been a failure since 2.0. The only reason it took this long to speak up about it, is I had no means of posting about it till now. People are fully capable of controlling the market and easily exploitable, the only question is how far will someone go? or wants to go, or wants to bother. The ability of doing so is defiantly there, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalbee
~~~Momo -
10-19-2016, 08:05 AMDement
On Balmung, people let markets get controlled. There are tons of crafters on this server and very few of them have the foresight to realize that you can make more money making low and mid level gear than making 250 stuff.
You said yourself that the 250 stuff is selling HQ below the cost of materials. That's because Balmung has so many crafters but they all only focus on the big ticket items. This leaves people who are willing to take the time or have excess mats to move into lower tiers and set whatever prices they desire, thus appearing to control the market. However, the barriers to entry for these items are pretty low. Most anyone who has leveled a crafter can move into them to some degree or another, they just choose not to and then complain that they can't make any gil.
I don't think it's a sign of an unhealthy economy necessarily, it's a sign that there are a ton of crafters on Balmung and very few of them have any inkling of business sense. Undercutting on this server is insane though, I will give you that. I personally would prefer an anonymous Auction House to the Market Board. -
10-19-2016, 10:59 AMSnow_Princess
That is incorrect, that happens because 2 people spam undercut each other till that point. It has nothing to do with how many focus on what. I focused on stuff all levels, and it is the same story.
~Momo -
10-19-2016, 12:15 PMAniforani
Specialist system isn't really a great blockade since you can swap them. I still have 11 souls and that's after I swapped a few times.
This really wasn't a great patch for crafters. The item level boost was ok, but the materials required to make them benefited players spending time in dungeons more than those spending time gathering and crafting. Sadly I made most of my gil this patch selling off materia I didn't need and crafting three star tools/gear to those catching up. Right now those old 3 star DoH/L crafts are cheaper to make, yet sell for more than most of the new 4 star DoW/M items.