I think the should scrap the current summoner system and make it all about the pets, like in ff11 but the twist here is that like 11 pets do most of the damage but you are controlling their skills. By this i mean like how any job uses a skill to attack in this new system instead of you doing the action your pet is. It would be similar to 11 but better. Also it wouldn't kill them to make the pets bigger and maybe redesign it to look more like the primals. You should be able to still cast ruin and dots as very little damage. What do you all think about this and do you thin SE will actually implement this system.
Summoner Pets in 4.0
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10-09-2016, 05:55 AMVenom1443Summoner Pets in 4.0
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10-09-2016, 06:43 AMmb52139
Its a little too late now to be revamping an entire class. You'd be better off making a whole new one.
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10-09-2016, 07:53 PMVenom1443
If thats the case then they should rename this class evoker and then make the new class summoner with the above skills and actions.
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10-09-2016, 07:59 PMStarkbeaumont
not again. the quests even explain why we have egis the way they are. also the whole story tells you all the time that real summoning is bad. there will never be summoner in this game that plays like X or XI...
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10-09-2016, 08:20 PMVenom1443
Your not understanding at all. I'm not talking about real avatars. I am still talking about egi's and that the skills you get as you lvl up are for them instead of yourself. Also they can make up a whole new story in 4.0 lile they did in 3.0 about how you can increase the limit of how many egi's you can summon. Also what is wrong with them being a little bigger?
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10-09-2016, 10:04 PMMagiusNecrosMore like the game telling you the class itself is bad and why they abandoned the Pets altogether and haven't learned any new skills since level 40.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont
Meanwhile in 3.4 we have 2 bosses that summon Garuda and Alexander respectively without a hitch.
The Xelphatol final boss is everything a summon attack should be but here no we have a glorified DoT as a Pet. -
10-10-2016, 12:46 AMElasmoFan
It's honestly too late for that. At this point in the game they're not going to change the whole job around nor will they change the name. They also won't make another summoning jobs when there is a ton of other jobs that they themselves as well as others are interested in. Honestly they mentioned before they weren't all that interested in summoner but made it because people were pushing for it, so there's no way they're going to skip other types of jobs to basically make another type of summoner.
I don't disagree with you at in the fact that this really doesn't feel like a summoner job and I'm not a big fan of the egis but at this point we have to accept this is what it's going to be unless they have a new rebirth or the next Final Fantasy MMO comes out in a long time from now. Doubt it'll be the last time that we'll get jobs that will feel and play a lot more different then they did in other Final Fantasies simply because it has to fit with the lore / mechanics of an MMO. -
10-10-2016, 01:55 AMLunaFaye
to be honest they should just remove the pets since they are not gonna release glamour or new pets anyways. Just give our abilities a buff and call it a day. SMN in ffxiv was never a true summoner to begin with, there's no reason to even keep the damn pets.
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10-10-2016, 04:07 AMDyvidMe every time I see people using this as an excuse....Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...h_b6488ee3.gif
Don't forget the owl that summons behemoth.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
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10-10-2016, 06:08 AMFeliAiko
You people really need to let this go.
Also isn't FFXV with their cutscene-inducing summons coming out soon? Should be plenty for you all to ooh and aww over then, instead of this stubborn refusal to respect the decision the devs made for the XIV Summoner going forward. -
10-10-2016, 08:30 AMMagiusNecrosI agree. It's time to let Summoner go, rename it to Super Arcanist and bask in with our new Carbuncle Glamour overlords. Fuck FF tradition.Quote:
Originally Posted by FeliAiko
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10-10-2016, 08:51 AMKonungarike
I main summoner. I love the class and the way it plays. I think that DWT was a good way forward that fits with the established rules of FFXIV's world. Anything else would break the lore, and subsequently, my immersion in it.
Bigger, more detailed egis? Why put graphical strain on something like that when it could be used on environmental design or boss fights? There is only so much an average player machine can handle. A good-looking game means nothing if it doesn't function properly, as 1.0 surely should've proven.
Re-work the entire job? Uhm, no. They would have to rewrite the entire summoner job storyline, and patch the old one out of the game. The time and resources spent on rebalancing "SMN 4.0" could be spent on a NEW job. We get little new content as it is, I don't want them bogged down in remastering a job that functions well and fine.
I'm disappointed that egi glamours are late, but at least I know they're working on it. I see it as a nice treat, not something that would make or break the job for me. -
10-10-2016, 09:05 AMFeliAikoSMN traditionally has been a flashy gimmick that got old real fast once you got better, more efficient spells later in games. No wonder the attempt to translate it into XI reportedly bombed for as long as it it did. I'd rather having a mechanically functioning Job over a 'traditional' one that ends up being an unwanted, gimmicky mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
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10-10-2016, 11:22 AMMagiusNecrosAt least they got the whole "it gets old fast" motif down. Props to them on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by FeliAiko
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10-10-2016, 12:24 PMADVSS
Im not sure how traditional youre looking for in smn, but theyve gotten pretty good at aoe nuking with trance, and dissipation is a thing for scholars, i could see them doing this, eating your egi, going the trance and doing enkindle 2 instead of deathflare, which does a big burst based on the egi you dissipated. Not really that hard to imagine, but youd still only get 3 egis. Which to me is why i could care less about egi glamours, its still gonna be the same 3, forever....
Im not sure why you would want to have all that control over the pets and think dodging titan extreme would be a thing, its a cool newer thing that happened from final fantasies x and up, but this kind of system in game would make it very difficult to be wanted into any content that mattered, hell the egis themselves already get killed too fast in certain fights, having them be most of your dps would just make smn a laughing stock and unwanted.
HOWEVER
palace of the dead has shown that you can sort of merge that concept if you "become" the summon itself for a short time etc. So if it did work like a polumorph in that manner, then i can say its possible for them to do. I wouldnt expect too much though, maybe 4-6 different forms, and 1 spammable attack, like it works in potd. If you want to do that, then yeah it seems easilly plausible. -
10-10-2016, 02:46 PMDuelleThe problem is that Dreadwyrm Trance is literally a random direction for a job know for summoning things. Sure, it's basically Metamorphosis from WoW Warlocks (back when they had it, since they don't have that ability anymore), but the job lacks a sort of foundation for DWT to not feel like a random added thing. Demo Locks at least had a foundation based on pets (including mechanical bonuses from certain pets, raid buffs from others and abilities that required specific pets to be active), while SMN was only part of the way there before the 52-60 abilities were added.Quote:
Originally Posted by Konungarike
I'll post something I put in a thread about more pet classes, simply because I believe you can adjust aspects of the job and may need to redesign the job's growth from 52-60, but a full redesign is not really needed for SMN.
Arcanist
Summary of changes
- Ruin gains extra potency on targets with Bio and Bio II on them. Total potency of a target with Bio and Bio II on them is 100.
- Bio stretched to 30s duration but nerfed from 40 potency to 25 potency per tick.
- Miasma changed from a single-target DoT to an AoE DoT. Is no longer affected by Bane. No longer applies Malady or Weight. MP cost increased to double of current amount to compensate.
- Sustain buffed to a total of 30% of pet HP recovered, but spread over 15s instead of 10s.
- Bane now spreads only Bio and Bio II. No longer has a chance to refresh durations.
- Eye for an Eye's cooldown reduced to 120s baseline.
- Rouse removed. Replaced by Emancipation.
- Miasma II removed. Replaced by Affliction.
- Shadow Flare now requires Aetherflow and is instant cast.
- Enhanced Pet Actions changed to pets gaining additional damage per DoT on the target.
- Pet damage resistance to AoE attacks increased.
- Reduced chances of being interrupted by damage when summoning.
Abilities
01 Ruin - Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 80.
02 Bio - Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 25 for 30s (combined total potency of 250). Adds 10 potency to Ruin if used on target affected.
04 Summon - Summons a caster-type pet to fight by your side.
04 Physick - Restores target's HP. Cure potency: 400
06 Aetherflow - Restores 20% of maximum MP. Additional Effect: Aetherflow. Cooldown: 60s.
08 Energy Drain - Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 150. Additional Effect: If under the effect of Aetherflow, absorbs 50% of damage dealt as HP and restores MP.
10 Miasma - Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 20 to target and nearby enemies. Additional Effect: Unaspected damage with potency of 25 for 24 seconds (Combined total potency of 220).
12 Virus - Reduces target's STR and DEX by 15% for 10s. Cooldown: 90s.
15 Summon II - Summons a tank-type pet to fight at your side.
18 Sustain - Continuously restores 6% of summon's HP over a period of 15s (total 30% of summon's HP).
22 Resurrection - Resurrects target to a weakened state.
26 Bio II - Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 35 over 30s (combined total potency of 350). Adds 10 potency to Ruin if used on target affected.
30 Bane - Spreads a target's Bio or Bio II to all nearby enemies with remaining debuff duration.
34 Eye for an Eye - Erects a magicked barrier around a single party member or pet for 30s. Barrier Effect: 20% chance that when barrier is struck, the striker will deal 10% less damage for 20s. Cooldown: 120s.
38 Ruin II - Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 80. Additional Effect: Blind for 10s.
42 Emancipation - Resets the cooldown on pet abilities and removes all status ailments on pet. Cooldown: 240s.
46 Affliction - Reduces target's HP recovered by healing magic by 20% for 24s. Additional Effect: 40% Heavy for 24s. Cooldown: 30s.
50 Shadow Flare - Envelops a designated area in a veil of magicked shadows, dealing damage with a potency of 25 to any who enter for 30s (combined total potency of 250 per target). Additional Effect: 5% of Slow. Can only be used while under the effect of Aetherflow.
Traits
08 Aetherdam - Allows the stacking of one Aetherflow.
14 Enhanced Intelligence
16 Enhanced Intelligence II
20 Maim and Mend - Increases base action damage and HP restoration by 10%.
20 Aetherdam II - Allows the stacking of up to two Aetherflows.
24 Enhanced Pet Actions - Pet abilities deal an additional 5% damage per damage over time effect on target.
28 Supervirus - Adds 15% Intelligence and mind enfeeblement to Virus for 12 seconds.
32 Enhanced Intelligence III
36 Energy Siphon - Doubles the amount of MP restored by Energy Drain.
40 Maim and Mend II - Increases base action damage and HP restoration by 30%.
40 Aetherdam III - Allows the stacking of up to three Aetherflows.
44 Enhanced Pet Resistance - Reduces pet's damage taken from indirect/area-of-effect sources by 20%.
48 Fortified Summoning - Reduces your chances of being interrupted from taking damage while casting summoning spells by 60%.
Notes
- The point of these tweaks is to remove some of the pet abilities from ACN. This leaves ACN to be focused on DoTs. and some debuffs.
- To clarify, Enhanced Pet Actions now increases the damage your pet deals on a target that has DoT effects on them. Ideally it is balanced around targets under the effect of Bio, Bio II and Miasma. Shadow Flare may also count as a DoT effect, but I'm not sure about it at the moment.
- Pet Resistance is there because I've seen pets get 3-shot by AoEs in dungeons. Not sure if this is a problem in savage content, but I thought it might be nice.
- Emancipation I feel would be a helpful cooldown to have in certain situations, and I see both SCH and SMN benefiting from it.
Summoner
Summary of Changes
- Tri-bind removed. Replaced by Egi Siphon.
- Spur and Rouse have been sort of combined.
- Dreadwyrm Trance and its associated abilities have been removed.
- Egi ability spread has been reduced from 5 abilities to 4. As such, Contagion, Landslide, and Radiant Shield are gone.
- Egi ultimate abilities (Inferno, Aerial Blast, etc) no longer have a cooldown but can only activate via Enkindle.
Job Abilities
30 Summon III - Summons an attacker-type pet to fight at your side.
35 Fester - Cause wounds inflicted by your damage over time effects to fester, dealing damage with a potency of 150. Refreshes the duration of Bio, Bio II or Miasma on target. Can only affect spells cast by you. Can only be used while under the effect of Aetherflow.
40 Rouse - Increases a pet's physical and magical attack power by 50% for 20s. While roused, pet will be immune to stun, sleep, bind, heavy, paralysis, and disease for 20s. Cooldown: 60s.
45 Egi Siphon - Absorb 30% of your current Egi's HP, generating one stack of Aetherflow. Cooldown: 45s.
50 Enkindle - Commands pet to use its signature attack. Cooldown: 180s.
52 Summon IV - Summons a crowd control-type pet to fight at your side. (this would be Shiva-Egi)
54 Elemental Wheel - Summons egi corresponding to your current egi's elemental wheel for 20s. Cooldown: 60s. (see notes)
56 Chandrahas - Summons Ravana-Egi to temporarily fight by your side for 15s. Upon expiring, performs Chandrahas, dealing damage with a potency of 200 to target and nearby enemies. Additional effect: Increases target's damage taken by 5% for 10s. Cooldown: 90s. Can only be used while under the effect of Aetherflow.
58 Summon V - Summons an anti-caster pet to fight by your side. (this would be Leviathan-Egi)
60 Trine - Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Gains 100 potency per additional active egi. Can only be used while under the effect of Elemental Wheel and Aetherflow. Requires two stacks of Aetherflow. Consumes Elemental Wheel upon use.
Garuda-Egi
Wind Blade - Deals wind damage with a potency of 110.
Shockwave - Deals wind damage with a potency of 90. Additional Effect: 15-yalm knockback. Cooldown: 90s.
Aerial Slash - Deals wind damage with a potency of 100 to target and all enemies nearby it. Cooldown: 30s.
Aerial Blast - Deals wind damage with a potency of 250 to target and all enemies nearby it.
Titan-Egi
Rock Buster - Delivers an attack with a potency of 85. Additional Effect: Increased enmity.
Mountain Buster - Delivers an attack with a potency of 70 to all nearby enemies. Additional Effect: Increased enmity. Cooldown: 15s.
Earthen Ward - Decreases damage suffered by pet by 20% for 20s. Cooldown: 120s.
Earthen Fury - Deals earth damage with a potency of 200 to all nearby targets. Additional Effect: Razed earth for 15s.
Ifrit-Egi
Burning Strike - Delivers an attack with a potency of 120.
Flaming Crush - Delivers an attack with a potency of 110 to all nearby enemies. Cooldown: 30s.
Crimson Cyclone - Delivers an attack with a potency of 110. Additional Effect: Stun for 2s. Cooldown: 40s.
Inferno - Deals fire damage with a potency of 200 to all enemies in a cone before it. Additional Effect: Fire damage over time with potency of 20 for 15s (combined total potency of 300 per target).
Shiva-Egi
Ice Brand - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Absolute Zero - Delivers an attack with a potency of 80 to nearby enemies. Additional effect: 50% Heavy for 10s. Cooldown: 90s.
Dream of Ice - Prevents target from acting for up to 15s. Effect ends upon taking damage, using another action or moving. Cooldown: 30s.
Diamond Dust - Deals ice damage with a potency of 250 to all nearby enemies.
Leviathan-Egi
Aquabreath - Deals water damage with a potency of 90.
Spinning Dive - Delivers an attack with a potency of 70. Additional effect: Silence for 3s. Cooldown: 30s.
Gyre Spume - Links target with a Gyre Spume, reducing target's magic potency by 20% for 10s. Effect ends if the Gyre Spume is destroyed. Cooldown: 120s.
Tsunami - Deals water damage with a potency of 200 to target and nearby enemies.
About Elemental Wheel
This ability uses the 1.0 elemental wheel that separated elements into two sets. Fire => Ice => Wind being one, and Earth => Lightning => Water being the other.
The ability basically summons the egi that compliment the wheel. So if you have Ifrit-Egi active, clicking on the ability will temporarily summon Shiva-Egi and Garuda-Egi to do their thing. As of right now, all they can do is auto-attack and contribute to Trine.
Because the Earth/Lightning/Water part of the wheel is not complete (I'd plan Ramuh-Egi to be the first thing you get upon hitting lv62), Using this while Titan-Egi is active would just summon Leviathan-Egi (and vice versa). Once you get Ramuh-Egi at lv62 you'd be able to summon the complete second wheel.
Notes
- This concept focuses a bit more on the pets, with abilities and utility coming via the pets themselves.
- I wasn't kidding when I said Levi-Egi could be a good anti-caster pet. It'd probably become one of those pets good for PvP or for fights where you need interrupts.
- Egi Siphon came about because I feel SMN should have an additional way to generate Aetherflow stacks. I originally wanted it to sacrifice the egi but that didn't pan out once I wrote it down.
- Trine was inspired by this. And it would follow a similar principle, since the three active egi would perform a sort of combination attack, dealing the damage. Since the ability consumes Elemental Wheel, the other two Egi vanish after you use Trine.
- Because the second elemental wheel is incomplete, using Trine while Titan-Egi or Leviathan-Egi are active delivers an attack with a potency of 300. Once you get Ramuh-egi it'll go back up to 400.
- I'm sure some would hate to see Egi go down to 4 abilities from 5, but egi having 5 abilities is part of what can create too much overlap between them. For reference, the template class used (WoW Warlocks) have pets with 3 abilities each without counting the passive stuff.
- Pet scaling may need to be bumped up a bit more. I haven't done the math on how big a nerf this is for SMN.
- As far as room for potential growth, the 60-70 questline could involve not only Ramuh-Egi, but also Bismarck-Egi as a temporary summon along with the ability to weaken yourself (or maybe just consume 3 aetherflow stacks) to empower your egi's. Think of it along the lines of how Pokemon evolve. -
10-10-2016, 08:00 PMDarkstride"Final Fantasy tradition" is a poor argument since summoning has been handled in various ways throughout the series. Some titles don't even have a Summoner job and any capable character can summon as a basic spell (VI, VII, VIII). A couple of titles have summons as a persistent pet with commands (X, XI), while others have them temporarily summoned (XII, XIII) as a buddy before they launch their signature attack. The titles that do have actual Summoners (IX, Tactics) just use them as a flashy spell animation with no actual control or command over the summon as a "pet".Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
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10-10-2016, 08:11 PMMagiusNecros
Most of the various ways a summon is handled is you summon a monster for one big attack and it goes away. Ergo not various. In X once it uses up it's big attack it goes away as well. XI is the only one where they stayed out. If anything your argument is poor and has no basis anywhere.
Summoning generally has a cast time. This cast time is meant to adhere to you saying the summons name in the language of magic to call upon their spirit and have them do an attack for you.
XIV is handled the way it is because the whole story is about killing summon beasts and that summoning is bad. Which if summoning is bad and a big no no why even introduce a summoning class if it inadvertently conflicts with the lore setting? -
10-10-2016, 08:27 PMDarkstrideI'm saying the job "Summoner" has been handled in various ways and there isn't a concrete definition of what it is or should be. Not every game has a Summoner and sometimes the summons are simply a spell that anyone can learn or use.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
This thread was started with the suggestion that Summoners should be more focused on pet commands rather than the Summoner's personal abilities. I've seen the argument multiple times that XIV's Summoner should be more pet-focused in order to be more like a traditional Final FANTASY summoner. There's nothing "traditional" about it.
If it were implemented in a way to reflect traditional Summoners, then there would be no pets and the job would just have the ability to summon various primal likenesses for individual attacks. -
10-10-2016, 08:41 PMMagiusNecrosSummoner class is based on the monsters. Not the caster. Subset class the Evoker is generally more inclined to channel Summon monsters powers into their being via trances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkstride
End of discussion.
Players wanted a Pet class. They failed to deliver. The rest is history. -
10-10-2016, 11:15 PMErdrickLotoSince when? The only time Evoker has been in a Final Fantasy game is III, where it was a lame version of Summoner.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
...Before there's any smartass remark, that role in the context of XIV is already taken up by Arcanist. -
10-10-2016, 11:34 PMMagiusNecros3 and BDFF. Thanks for asking. And last I recall neither the Evoker nor the Summoner specialized in DoT spells and poisons.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErdrickLoto
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10-11-2016, 12:09 AMErdrickLoto...Amazing. I just said III didn't have that type of Evoker (using a summon spell as an evoker gave you a 50/50 shot of either buffing your party or hurting the enemy...except for Titan, who always hurt the enemy, so if anything there was still leaning towards hurting the enemy), and you still used it as an answer. BDFF did, but then it's technically not a Final Fantasy game. (Also it was called Conjurer.)Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
While it wasn't specializing in, I recall Rydia's Bio being pretty useful in FFIV until you got the -aga spells. If we're going the "tradition" route, then summoner needs to either only use flashy attacks that cost metric loads of MP, since every game with the job system and summoner only had them use Summon Magic, or have them heal - the "White Magic/Summon" combo appeared the most in the series, being in IX, X, and XI. -
10-11-2016, 12:35 AMMagiusNecros
And yet in other FF games barring ones with an actual job system Summoner has been paired with White or Black Magic. Bio traditionally being a Black Magic spell which somehow is only on Arcanists for some reason.
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10-11-2016, 02:11 AMDarkstrideIn 1.0, Bio belonged to Thaumaturge along with Dia, Burn, Choke, etc while Conjurer had all of the elemental spells. Thaumaturge actually had more healing capability paired with DoTs and debuffs. Conjurer was more damage-focused. When the job system was introduced, for some reason SE swapped the roles making Conjurer nearly a pure healer that evolved to White Mage, while Thaumaturge was completely redesigned as a full DPS class to make way for Black Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
In the process, I think too much got shuffled and there was no more DoT class because they aligned them to be the base for their new job counterparts.
With ARR, the new class Arcanist resumed that role and inherited Bio as well as the other DoTs. It was certainly an odd choice as a base class for Summoner, but that's how it happened.