Drk tanking without Darkside.

Lately, I've seen Drks tank without Darkside until we reach the boss(in df), and it's starting to be a slight increase trend. Has anyone else notice this?

No. And it's not a good thing since Darkside is required for a good amount of your offensive and defensive skills. Anyone that pulls the no Darkside crap can go back to Paladin as far as I am concerned.

On the one hand, I can sort of see where they might be coming from. Trash pulls are mostly about just grabbing everything in sight and then just spamming AoEs until the DPS classes can burn them all down. They might not see the extra damage from Darkside being important when they want to just spam more AoEs.

On the other, it makes no sense, since MP is rarely ever an issue during trash pulls, as blood price tends to cover that pretty easily. Even if you run into the worst-case scenario of running out of MP, the most you have to do is turn it back on anyway.

Mostly just sounds like bad players being bad. Realistically speaking, there's no reason you should ever have Darkside turned off during a fight. It could also just be that they turn it off to regen MP between fights, and then forget to turn it back on before the next pull.

Possibility #1: The player couldn't into simple MP management, so the mp was spent and Darkside automatically turned off, forgot to turn it on again until the boss.
Possibility #2: The player couldn't into simple MP management, so they opted to just not use Darkside on trash and decided to use it on boss only instead.
Possibility #3: It's my subs I can play however I want.

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Originally Posted by mosaicex

Possibility #1: The player couldn't into simple MP management, so the mp was spent and Darkside automatically turned off, forgot to turn it on again until the boss.
Possibility #2: The player couldn't into simple MP management, so they opted to just not use Darkside on trash and decided to use it on boss only instead.
Possibility #3: It's my subs I can play however I want.

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Or 4, you're in Haukke Manor or Brayflox normal where you don't have blood price making fulltime use very cumbersome.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Lately, I've seen Drks tank without Darkside until we reach the boss(in df), and it's starting to be a slight increase trend. Has anyone else notice this?

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Not only that.

I have a lucky hand getting all new peeps in DF recentrly...

DRKs without Darkside
Heals, especially Scholars standing around and wait 10 seconds to pull out a heal that gets overhealed by the fairy, but no inted for Cleric stance
DPS with 235 weapons doing about 1/4 the damage of me....
PLD hitting Circle on single enemys, not even doing Flash once... loosing hate on the first Fire2 to hit the pack...
Tanks generally having problems with blue Bubbles (Shadowflare) which they avoid as if they get damaged by them...
Bards who are Archers and have no singing voice....

especially getting at least 2 of 3 of this types in a dungeon run.

list could be continued endlessly

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Originally Posted by wicked-one

Not only that.

I have a lucky hand getting all new peeps in DF recentrly...

DRKs without Darkside
Heals, especially Scholars standing around and wait 10 seconds to pull out a heal that gets overhealed by the fairy, but no inted for Cleric stance
DPS with 235 weapons doing about 1/4 the damage of me....
PLD hitting Circle on single enemys, not even doing Flash once... loosing hate on the first Fire2 to hit the pack...
Tanks generally having problems with blue Bubbles (Shadowflare) which they avoid as if they get damaged by them...
Bards who are Archers and have no singing voice....

especially getting at least 2 of 3 of this types in a dungeon run.

list could be continued endlessly

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So we should totally have level jumping potions, right?

Oh god no!

SE should really implement incentives for people doing Dungeons well and learn their job Skill-by-Skill, as well as visiting the beginners hall.

FATEs and PoD for easy level-jumps just generates tons of people which some has to say, thats not a performance at all, thats just participating while 3 other dudes do the content for them...

Some make really the impression like they stop in dungeons and enjoy the view like some sort of tourist xD

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Or 4, you're in Haukke Manor or Brayflox normal where you don't have blood price making fulltime use very cumbersome.

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Lul.
Aggro combo, Mana combo - Low level EZ mode.

You only need to use Darkside if you want to do more DPS.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You only need to use Darkside if you want to do more DPS.

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or take less damage - darkside give accessto defensive cooldowns like dark mind and dark dance, along with dark arts to buff those defensive cooldowns. and dark arts + souleater gives decent HP back to help recovery and sustainability a bit

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Originally Posted by MrsFluffyButt

Aggro combo, Mana combo - Low level EZ mode.

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Great way to do even less DPS than using AoE out of Darkside for trash packs...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Great way to do even less DPS than using AoE out of Darkside for trash packs...

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Even read the post I quoted? Only AOE's you have at Brayflox level are Unleash and Dark Passenger a few levels later. Try harder, mate.

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Originally Posted by MrsFluffyButt

Even read the post I quoted? Only AOE's you have at Brayflox level are Unleash and Dark Passenger a few levels later. Try harder, mate.

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Yes, and by using single target combos, you'll deal less damage to packs than by using Unleash, even if you have Darkside up.
Do the maths...

If, in the long run, it was something to get pissy about; sure. But there isn't. So it shouldn't matter how they decide to run. You can hold aggro in Darkside without Grit, you can hold aggro without Darkside in Grit; so... Who cares?

'Dmg up blah blah'. You can handle five extra seconds.

Here is a funny. From time to time i do go as healer. So when me and my friends decided to go to our expert at the time, we had Sohr Khai. And the the tank we got was a drk. Looked at the gear she/he was pretty much had really good gear and had the hoard weapon at the time, anyways she would pull and she did had darkside up.I put on my regans ;ike normal and started to dps , then i notice her hp was hitting the floor extremely fast. I m asking my self " why is his/her hp hitting the the floor" so next pull i decided to look and of course my luck she dropped grit with like 5 enemies that cleaves and aoe just to use blood weapon.

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Originally Posted by Soulbrandt

If, in the long run, it was something to get pissy about; sure. But there isn't. So it shouldn't matter how they decide to run. You can hold aggro in Darkside without Grit, you can hold aggro without Darkside in Grit; so... Who cares?

'Dmg up blah blah'. You can handle five extra seconds.

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Because it's literally 15% damage you're leaving on the table, along with access to Dark Dance and Dark Mind (two very useful CDs for the sake of trash pulls), Dark Passenger, and Dark Arts (no access to the last two lowers your damage even further). You're both making the instance slower and making your healer's life harder for no legitimate reason besides sheer laziness, as it's incredibly easy to keep up darkside (Dark Price, Sole Survivor, Syphon Strike, hell even use Carve and Split for MP if you really need to).

Might as well say "Greased lighting blah blah." You can handle a longer dungeon, right?

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Originally Posted by Soulbrandt

If, in the long run, it was something to get pissy about; sure. But there isn't. So it shouldn't matter how they decide to run. You can hold aggro in Darkside without Grit, you can hold aggro without Darkside in Grit; so... Who cares?

'Dmg up blah blah'. You can handle five extra seconds.

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This is why they need to make dungeons harder. I miss Demon Wall.

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Originally Posted by nyttyn

making your healer's life harder

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No more than all tanks who drop their stance all the time to gain a little damage, even if the instance could be comfortably cleared without that.

I wish tanks were basically as squishy as DPS and tank stance were much more powerful to compensate. Being chastized for "tanking" is a plague.

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Originally Posted by Axxion

Here is a funny. From time to time i do go as healer. So when me and my friends decided to go to our expert at the time, we had Sohr Khai. And the the tank we got was a drk. Looked at the gear she/he was pretty much had really good gear and had the hoard weapon at the time, anyways she would pull and she did had darkside up.I put on my regans ;ike normal and started to dps , then i notice her hp was hitting the floor extremely fast. I m asking my self " why is his/her hp hitting the the floor" so next pull i decided to look and of course my luck she dropped grit with like 5 enemies that cleaves and aoe just to use blood weapon.

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In that situation they should have used DADP + DADD to dodge all the things while regenerating all their MP with BW.

I've seen it only a handful of times since I mostly tank Dungeons anyway. Sometimes they just forget.

Im bad at mp management as a dark knight. If my mp gets to around 5% ill turn off darkside and use mp regen cds and skills. But in pulls my priority is keeping hate, not making them die faster.

Turning off darkside between pulls is smart, hitting mobs without it isn't. Free DPS increase, and managing your MP is part of the class, without the safety net of Aetherflow or Transpose.

At the end of the day, as long as things got done. Who cares?

The way I see it. If you use DF you lose all reasons to complain about other players and how they play be right or wrong.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

At the end of the day, as long as things got done. Who cares?

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Everyone should care. Why do people think it's acceptable to put no effort into the game? There isn't even a hard job in it. Do you think tanks that don't pop cooldowns are alright, or BLMs that only use ice spells, or DRGs that only use the Full Thrust combo, or healers that spam Medica II/Aspected Helios?

The way I see it, if you're going to queue for something with 3/7/23 other people, have some consideration and actually put effort in.

Every Dark Knight should be using Darkside no matter what there's no excuse 15% more dmg/threat is crucial as a tank and as for your CDs/Offensive abilities. Without Darkside at lvl 60 you lose:

-Dark Mind plus it's DA variant
-Dark Passenger + DA
-Dark Dance + DA
-Dark Arts itself (no DA + SE or Abyssal Drain + DA for AoE)

That's a ton of unused potential, also if you're choosing Drk for your main tanking class while you're lvling they start off with their tank stance at 30 with Darkside meaning that you can Unleash, Threat combo, drop Grit and pop Blood Weapon if you're really running out of mana. The mobs don't hit hard at all it's basically like healing a Pld in a lvl 30 dungeon Drk really shines in the lower lvls compared to the other 2 tanks and MP management really isn't that hard.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

At the end of the day, as long as things got done. Who cares?

The way I see it. If you use DF you lose all reasons to complain about other players and how they play be right or wrong.

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I care especially if i'm a healer or DPS and on top of that i'm a Drk main it's pure laziness yes you can hold threat, yes you can tank, but it's wrong it's not utilizing the class that's built around that mechanic. It's like a pld not using an oath, a Sch not using a fairy, just because you have the option not you shouldn't mean that you ignore such a vital toolkit of your class.

Something I try to explain to these DRKs is that the MP drain of Dark Side is sooooo small.
You can leave it on, and ONLY use powerslash combo, and still have a large chunk of MP by the end of a long boss fight. (at least half ur MP or more)

What is draining your MP is spamming AoEs or Dark Arts, not Dark Side.
(turning it off between pulls, or when bosses go immune, or teleport really far away is fine though)

Next thing I tell these DRKs is unless your under geared, there's no reason to use ur enmity combo, u can maintain ur threat the whole fight with just delirium combo (dont even use soul eater, and ull hold hate still) (Though its ok to use 1-2 powerslash combos if you feel u need a safety net)

This prevents u from ever running out of MP.

(Similar on PLD and WAR when u have ur 3rd hit DPS combos. Heck I pretty much spam/cycle Path on all mobs as WAR to lower their dmg to me, the lowest threat option, and I hold perfect threat. Except on bosses, or 2 or less enemies, i put up eye as well)

But to be fair, when Im using duty finder, and I get 1 too many groups who have ticked me off, I purposely only use grit, dont use CDs, and I equip/spam FLASH on AoE, and powerslash only on bosses.
(Surprisingly this is the ONLY way i ever get commendations in Duty Finder dungeons... I guess ppl dont like Dark Side, Unleash, or CDs.)

Not one person has a right to complain about others in a DF. You picked to use a system design for all skill levels, you picked the game to make a group for you. They have a right to play how they want, lazy or not. You did not make that group. You don't have a say on how they play. The people who complain about others in DF need to get over it.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Not one person has a right to complain about others in a DF. You picked to use a system design for all skill levels, you picked the game to make a group for you. They have a right to play how they want, lazy or not. You did not make that group. You don't have a say on how they play. The people who complain about others in DF need to get over it.

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This is primarily why the JP servers are so much better. They are generally at least competent enough to not drag the whole team down because he/she doesn't want to make an effort. It's not about the will, it's about basic courtesy. People have the right to do whatever they want but I will votekick the guy because you are either knowingly or unknowingly wasting other people's time. That's just rude.

By how people sound, it's like they are saying as long as people can clear, they don't care. The closer look into that, you are most likely getting carried. It's as bad as tanks not using defensive CDs or dps not using offensive CDs properly for entirety of the runs. As long as tank is not dead by the end right? As long as the dps is doing some dmg even though 800dps is still really bad? What about people not doing aoe on big mobs? Come on, get real. You are ruining other people's experience by ruling what's ideal to yourself.

still think bloodweapon shouldnt be locked out of grit, you have it in sastasha, all of a sudden you get a skill 20 levels later that prevents you from using it. Dont believe any other job works like this, usually its the other way around where you get skills that are only usable with new stance of buff up. But yeah DS before a pull, cut if off it mp is low after mobs die, cut it on before next pull, etc.
Unnecessary, but you can still use ethers/elixers and whatnot to restore mp with darkside on.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

still think bloodweapon shouldnt be locked out of grit, you have it in sastasha, all of a sudden you get a skill 20 levels later that prevents you from using it. Dont believe any other job works like this, usually its the other way around where you get skills that are only usable with new stance of buff up. But yeah DS before a pull, cut if off it mp is low after mobs die, cut it on before next pull, etc.
Unnecessary, but you can still use ethers/elixers and whatnot to restore mp with darkside on.

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WAR should totally have access to Fell Cleave in Defiance. PLD should also have access to double auto attacks! Game's broken! /s

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

WAR should totally have access to Fell Cleave in Defiance. PLD should also have access to double auto attacks! Game's broken! /s

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Im fine with that still potency loss, and they keep the extra hp in defiance, they both have access to fight or flight and berserk in their tank stances, not sure where youre going with this.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Im fine with that still potency loss, and they keep the extra hp in defiance, they both have access to fight or flight and berserk in their tank stances, not sure where youre going with this.

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Do you know how much easier for DRK to maintain that 15% dmg up? PLD and WAR have to think way more to maximize damage from each usage from Berserk and FoF. If you are jusf popping it off CD all the time, you are doing it wrong.

PLD gains access to double autos in SwO, DRK gains Blood Weapon without Grit, WAR gains 5%dmg up and 2 damaging skills in Deliverance. If anything, you are handsomely rewarded for knowing how to tank to the point where you can actually afford to be in DPS stance without sacrificing your survivability.

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Originally Posted by mosaicex

Possibility #1: The player couldn't into simple MP management, so the mp was spent and Darkside automatically turned off, forgot to turn it on again until the boss.
Possibility #2: The player couldn't into simple MP management, so they opted to just not use Darkside on trash and decided to use it on boss only instead.
Possibility #3: It's my subs I can play however I want.

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Possibility #4: I toggle Darkside off between trash pulls and occasionally forget to turn it back on sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Not one person has a right to complain about others in a DF. You picked to use a system design for all skill levels, you picked the game to make a group for you. They have a right to play how they want, lazy or not. You did not make that group. You don't have a say on how they play. The people who complain about others in DF need to get over it.

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no, cause those that don't play by the rules waste everyone else time. it's just as much my money as it is the other person's. and if someone makes the group wipe or drags out a fight by just hitting one button or never using cds or whatever reason the lazy one brings up I'll sure gonna tell that person to stop slacking and better play right. this is not about always giving 100% but about actually caring about the time and fun of everyone.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

So we should totally have level jumping potions, right?

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There are enough people at level 60 who are bad already, and may as well have not done the 1-59 stuff. Couldn't hurt too much more to give people at least a jump to level 50 when 4.0 comes out.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

no, cause those that don't play by the rules waste everyone else time. it's just as much my money as it is the other person's. and if someone makes the group wipe or drags out a fight by just hitting one button or never using cds or whatever reason the lazy one brings up I'll sure gonna tell that person to stop slacking and better play right. this is not about always giving 100% but about actually caring about the time and fun of everyone.

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You waste your own time by not building a group yourself. They did not waste your time.

I bet that he lost darkside between bosses and forgot to turn it on until reaching next boss.
If he was tanking classic (aggro combo) and using unleash while on darkside he drained all his mp.

Anyways its bad tanking

This infuriates me. How people can completely disregard 15% damage and access to more skills is beyond me, maybe SE making jobs easier in 4.0 is a good thing...

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

This infuriates me. How people can completely disregard 15% damage and access to more skills is beyond me, maybe SE making jobs easier in 4.0 is a good thing...

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The thing is even if SE makes all the jobs straight forward and cookie cutter, people will still find reasons to suck at them. See PLD, literally has the easiest dps rotation and people still do like 500dps in SwO mind you. Even back in lvl50 PLD, all you have to do was spam RoH combo and people still failed at it. Really? PLD easiest job? Same applies to that 300dps smn or brd in DREX for god's sake.

Note: like even just spamming a combo over and over is enough to breech that 500dps easily.