RIP WHM

Well with the new changes to AST why would any party with a WHM.

AST "Here have 30+ seconds of raging strikes!"

WHM "Medica II!"


RIP

I don't really think this makes whm any less of a good healer. Most progression groups tend to prefer whm as it offers more safety and allows a bit more room for mistakes. They're just lacking in the utility department :x

oh please. what a pointless thread.

https://youtu.be/6FdJQSE1h70 nah

This isn't the first time someone said those words nor will it be the first time they were proven wrong...

Why do WHM mains get so upset whenever one of the other healing jobs gets buffed? Honestly.

My static's main healer double mains WHM and AST and he's thrilled with the changes and can't wait to get in there and work with them.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Why do WHM mains get so upset whenever one of the other healing jobs gets buffed? Honestly.

My static's main healer double mains WHM and AST and he's thrilled with the changes and can't wait to get in there and work with them.

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Because dey took er jobs

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Why do WHM mains get so upset whenever one of the other healing jobs gets buffed? Honestly.

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the only thing I'm upset about is how blatantly obvious it is that square has literally actually zero idea about what makes scholar good. what they really ought to do is trash noct all together and just work on balancing durinal and whm instead of chasing around the scholar that they will never ever catch up to.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

the only thing I'm upset about is how blatantly obvious it is that square has literally actually zero idea about what makes scholar good. what they really ought to do is trash noct all together and just work on balancing durinal and whm instead of chasing around the scholar that they will never ever catch up to.

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This. So much this.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Why do WHM mains get so upset whenever one of the other healing jobs AST gets buffed?

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SE decided they were going to make 2 classes with nearly identical playstyles, and make duplicates/near duplicates of almost all WHM skills.
WHM also lost proshell...

The numbers attached to those healing skills and mp management are really the only things separating the classes' healing end. Given that AST has the card system, increases to AST numbers make WHMs worried about AST powercreeping its way to "WHM with cards" status.

SE should distance these jobs/playstyles further from each other. Give WHMs a few more truely unique bells and whistles to set it a little further apart and you'll see these threads become almost non-existent

EDIT:
I remembered something I wanted to add:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3128545

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Q16. In regards to the effect of Protect and Stoneskin, can you add some type of advantage, similar to pre-patch 3.0, for white mages?

A16. As I mentioned previously, we made adjustments to actions that were largely based on stat percentages, and due to this the identity of each job was lost when using these abilities as additional actions. I apologize for this.

However, to compensate for this, we've added in a great deal of healing power.

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The devs literally apologized for this and gave WHMs a stat lead to compensate... and since then that "healing power" advantage has been steadily declining

I just finished my WHM relic. I don't want to play AST.....

Cure III, Assize, Asylum, Benediction.
It's like some people in this thread forgot that these skills still exist and are the reason why WHM remains a superior healer able to answer to more situations than the AST.

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Originally Posted by Aerilon

Well with the new changes to AST why would any party with a WHM.

AST "Here have 30+ seconds of raging strikes!"

WHM "Medica II!"


RIP

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Lol see the content first before judging. People also forget AST has and will always have the same issue, the cards are useless unless you draw them just when you need them.

World first creator clear will still probably have a white mage just because it's way safer in progression.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Lol see the content first before judging. People also forget AST has and will always have the same issue, the cards are useless unless you draw them just when you need them.

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There is literally never a time when a balance or arrow is bad.

Unless like, the boss is in a phase where they are invulnerable. But that's what 'Spread' is for.

Everything else can be royal road fodder if its drawn at a bad time for no real loss, so that's not really an issue.

AST's only real problems is it has less throughput than white mage and can't offheal as effectively as scholar.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

World first creator clear will still probably have a white mage just because it's way safer in progression.

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I think WHM/AST might be the safer comp unless there is a part that requires extreme mitigation from something like a crit deploy.

Other than that, in regards to world first. It could be WHM/SCH just due to the fact that there aren't that many good AST mains in comparison to WHM mains. Unless the top groups have had WHMs that play as good on ASTs that could swap out, then they will be running WHM regardless of whether it's better or not.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

I think WHM/AST might be the safer comp unless there is a part that requires extreme mitigation from something like a crit deploy.

Other than that, in regards to world first. It could be WHM/SCH just due to the fact that there aren't that many good AST mains in comparison to WHM mains. Unless the top groups have had WHMs that play as good on ASTs that could swap out, then they will be running WHM regardless of whether it's better or not.

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Even with a AST buff, I still prefer having a SCH on my WHM.

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Originally Posted by Yona87

Even with a AST buff, I still prefer having a SCH on my WHM.

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I mean that's fine. Everyone has their preference.

I just think both jobs are just as viable now and depending on the fight, they can lean towards AST or SCH. Creator will be interesting for sure.

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Originally Posted by Reptiletc

https://youtu.be/6FdJQSE1h70 nah

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And? Warrior and Scholar can solo Titan EX just fine. With these buffs, AST could too.

With Savage being scaled down difficulty wise, I do think WHM will be losing its position to AST. Cure III is incredibly helpful, but SCH/AST's mitigation is close enough while both offer immense versatility that WHM simply doesn't have. This doesn't render WHM any less viable, but it's definitely the weakest of the three healer jobs now.

RIP whm?
Requested In Parties

Whenever a class gets buffed, be it tank, dps or whatever, there's always an over reaction on classes of the same role.
Let's see how the Astro performs for a while with these changes. It's best performance is still reliant on right card right time.

Generally for those people who like healers it's not a big deal, as they're likely to have played all three.
Will be interesting to try the different healer combinations, and see how Noct performs in particular.

lol I've read this silly "rip whm" thing way too many times on this forum. People just like to overreact.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

the only thing I'm upset about is how blatantly obvious it is that square has literally actually zero idea about what makes scholar good. what they really ought to do is trash noct all together and just work on balancing durinal and whm instead of chasing around the scholar that they will never ever catch up to.

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Completely disagree. Regardless of how SCH does what it does it all boils down to how much healing they can do, how much dps they can do, whether or not its their own dps or raid dps thru buffs.

These changes don't make noct AST a SCH; it makes these things add up to what SCH provides (or at least that's the goal; we'll see if these buffs accomplish this in practical situations). Better shields means more free time to dps the same way a fairy helps in that respect, and better buffs makes up for their own lesser dps.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Cure III, Assize, Asylum, Benediction.
It's like some people in this thread forgot that these skills still exist and are the reason why WHM remains a superior healer able to answer to more situations than the AST.

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And Divine Seal. :)

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Completely disagree. Regardless of how SCH does what it does it all boils down to how much healing they can do, how much dps they can do, whether or not its their own dps or raid dps thru buffs.

These changes don't make noct AST a SCH; it makes these things add up to what SCH provides (or at least that's the goal; we'll see if these buffs accomplish this in practical situations). Better shields means more free time to dps the same way a fairy helps in that respect, and better buffs makes up for their own lesser dps.

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you can disagree, but you're wrong. shields absolutely do not make up for a fairy, that isn't even debatable. both the fairies are utility powerhouses that do so much more than cast embrace. indom is a stupid powerful ogcd and astro doesn't have an answer to it in either stance and then of course there's the glaring fact that not only do scholars have an easier time dpsing, they can dps forever because they have mana positive dps. that means they can stop whenever at any point in the fight, no matter how long, and be in excellent shape to do any healing or raising that needs done.

noct astro would make an absolutely fine main healer, maybe better than durinal, but that's almost never going to be an option because astro shields will overwrite scholar shields regardless of if they're better or not. It's a bad stance, and unless we get a bunch of diverse healers that can fill the off healer role like scholar can, it's always going to be a bad stance. the only real benefit of the noct sect changes is that it's no longer a red flag to abandon a dungeon immediately when you see an astro spawn in with it on

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Originally Posted by Sanghelios

And Divine Seal. :)

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ASTs just shit all over Divine Seal now though with 30 second Synastry, not to mention absolutely disgusting MP regeneration and mobility healing. And all the extra HPS output WHM has doesn't count the fact there's only so much HPS in a given fight to do, and that the devs have already confirmed this tier of raid being easier than Gordias or Midas. Unless their way of making things easier is making constant and spike AoE damage that a AST and SCH can't handle with Indomitability, Emergency, Light speed and Whispering Dawn, I don't see how WHM can't compete with the sheer quantity of utility and mitigation an AST/SCH composition will bring.

i think at this point they can WHM give the proshell exclusiveness and the 18% stoneskin back. SCH has anywy a mdef buff (from eos) and supervirus. and AST also has enough defense tools even when not in shield stance (and AST + AST is the only way there is no mdef buff available, so who cares xD).

To be honest as a WHM main I don't feel like AST is going to be ridiculous in 3.4. Though I do agree that from what I've seen in the thread AST does pose a threat to WHM in the terms of mitigation and cards they can draw(again, RNG). With Redraw buffed up to 30s along with +15s extra card holding time, AST can wait out the CD to keep drawing other cards if they're looking for that specific Royal Road card for AoE or anything else since it's the same CD as drawing.

As for heals, I still think that WHM has the better output, but AST still threatens WHM's identity as the main healer due to AST's Synastry, Increased Buff Time from Celestial Opposition, and the new Guaranteed Crit Benefic II(which has the same proc rate as WHM Free Cure II) trait. The only thing discerning this is probably how AST handles its MP compared to WHM, where AST has to rely on Lumineferous Aether(24s 80 potency MP Tick) and Ewer(by drawing), while WHM has Assize(+10% MP and a choice of 300 pot Damage or Free Medica on a 90s CD), Benediction(100% HP Recovery. Best Instant Heal in the game), Tetragrammaton(Free Cure II with a high potency on a 60s CD), and I fail to understand why nobody even mentions Asylum.

Asylum is definitely better than Collective Unconscious in terms of being able to do other actions while your healing bubble ticks. AST has to stop whatever its doing and not do a thing for the duration of CU(or until they move) for 10% Mitigation plus a HoT, whereas WHM can continue doing other actions such as DPSing or something.

Honestly I can see the raid groups taking WHM over AST for safety due to Cure III. However everything can shift to AST once raid groups have had experience and they can feel free to DPS more or gain more from AST's Cards and Buffs(especially Celestial Opposition the way it's going to be soon). SCH no longer is the top contender as always due to said Fairy Heals and being the only class with reliable shields pre-3.4, so honestly I can see the dream of X/X Healer Compositions happening at the very least.

The only thing that SE needs to keep in check is WHM's Identity and AST's power. Again, they did say they were going to keep a check on it and adjust it in 4.0, but at least the healer balance is a lot better in 3.4 than it once was.

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Originally Posted by tjw

ASTs just shit all over Divine Seal now though with 30 second Synastry, not to mention absolutely disgusting MP regeneration and mobility healing. And all the extra HPS output WHM has doesn't count the fact there's only so much HPS in a given fight to do, and that the devs have already confirmed this tier of raid being easier than Gordias or Midas. Unless their way of making things easier is making constant and spike AoE damage that a AST and SCH can't handle with Indomitability, Emergency, Light speed and Whispering Dawn, I don't see how WHM can't compete with the sheer quantity of utility and mitigation an AST/SCH composition will bring.

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Divine Seal also comes up much quicker and is better for AoE healing, which as the main healer, is probably a good point.

Also just because a fight is easier doesn't necessarily mean the damage level will go down sharply. It can also mean more lax mechanics via less instant wipe or laxer dps checks.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

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I don't think Asylium is really that much better than CU.
On one hand,it is because WHM can use this and keep healing right after, but you don't always stand here just doing nothing as an AST until the end of the duration of CU.
You usely put it to get the regen then go back to what you were doing.
But what's wonderful with CU is that the regen stick on you once you entered CU area PLUS, it's really super strong! 150 of potency during 15s (even probably 25 with CO !).

So they are both great on their own way (even if i personnaly think that CU is really stronger).

No other healer class beats White mage's pure healing power. Cure III, assize, Benediction...etc.
There is actually a comparison btw Scholar and Astrologian (3.4patch ), turns out that new AST healing + shield is much powerful than a scholar , but that doesn't mean theres no place for a scholar in Raid.

The reason for picking a scholar not only for his shield, but his utility- eye for eye/adlo spread, indomitabilty, and others, last but not least , his faery which is really hard to balance by just adjusting the numbers (Yoshi did mentioned before).

What i really dissapointed was not whether they buffing/nerfing one class, its the "laziness" in balancing a class by just adjusting numbers.
Eg: Draw- 60 reduced to 30secs, this skill increased from X-to Y, reduced from Y to Z
"extended from 15 to 20y, 120% of HP restored to 150%"

Yall need to spend less time crying about white mage being replaced by diurnal and start preparing to learn how to heal without being carried by embrace :^)
Winter is coming.

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Originally Posted by Anchored0wl

Yall need to spend less time crying about white mage being replaced by diurnal and start preparing to learn how to heal without being carried by embrace :^)
Winter is coming.

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It's the usual reaction whenever a class gets some changes. All of a sudden it's the prefect class, and all other comparable role classes are resigned to the bin. Never correct in either of those.
WHM has great skills which aren't headline now, simply because they've been used effectively for so long.
Best to ignore the knee jerk reactions and carry on playing the classes you enjoy.

For me at least, Benediction, Tetragammaton and Cure III are probably the three main reasons why WHM is still more than viable for raid content. What I would love to see is having Stoneskin II as an insta-cast ability with a suitably long cool down that can be used in battle, which I think would plug a very noticeable gap in the WHM skill set.

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Originally Posted by Astraxus

For me at least, Benediction, Tetragammaton and Cure III are probably the three main reasons why WHM is still more than viable for raid content. What I would love to see is having Stoneskin II as an insta-cast ability with a suitably long cool down that can be used in battle, which I think would plug a very noticeable gap in the WHM skill set.

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That I like!

RIP WHM because of buffs to a Sect designed to encourage WHM-AST pairings instead of XXX-SCH ones?

Makes sense.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

RIP WHM because of buffs to a Sect designed to encourage WHM-AST pairings instead of XXX-SCH ones?

Makes sense.

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Diurnal is currently competitive with WHM, and it's also being buffed significantly via cards / CO. As there are already a lot of d.ASTs out there, this gives them even more of an edge over WHM. So while it's not quite RIP, I can see some cause for concern.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Diurnal is currently competitive with WHM, and it's also being buffed significantly via cards / CO. As there are already a lot of d.ASTs out there, this gives them even more of an edge over WHM. So while it's not quite RIP, I can see some cause for concern.

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Exactly. Pre-3.4, as of now I feel AST and WHM shared a balance. The buffs to Nocturnal were a bit much with the cards. The shielding I understand because you're making up for the lack of a fairy, raw Ben II makes up for the other half. I say making up because everyone and their mother compares to SCH as off heal/shield slot. The duration of Celestial Opposition and Crit proc on Ben II were great, even though I feel that ben II crit should have been a nocturnal effect only. Nocturnal should have changed Celestial Opposition and Time Dilation to better enhance shields, instead of leaving their synergy with Luminious/Cards alone.

Instead, the same qualities that are helping to "balance" SCH and Noct AST are there to "balance" WHM and Diurnal AST. Since they were close before, it stands to reason that the distance closer AST gets to SCH, from changes that affect both stances, the farther away from WHM, AST will become.

Why take WHM -xxx, when you can take the "perfect" off healing SCH and the super buffing AST, who main heals just dandy.


^ Thats the concern I see.

hi.

I dont understand how WHM is dead because of the AST changes. All of the changes that are relevant to healing, have been from Noct Sect. Not Diurnal. A quick look at the numbers shows that in Diurnal sect, an ASTs shields are stronger than SCHs. Using aspected Benefic and Adloquuim as an example here.

Adloquium = 300 potency, + 100% shield. (so a 300 potency shield) So youve output 600 potency.

Aspected Benefic in Noct Sect = 250 Potency, + 170% shield. 170% of 250 = 425. so 250 potency heal, + 425 potency shield is an output of 675. 75 potency more than the sch has put out. factor in the 10% healing magic potency granted by nocturnal sect, and couple that with Aspected Benefic being instant cast. and we can see that Aspected benefic is a better skill here.

So, I think, with that in mind, AST + WHM is probably the best healer combination. WHM has 10 more potency on its regen and medica effects. So with this setup you get bigger shields, bigger HOTs. WHM is a healing powerhouse. Assize is a great aoe heal and MP managment tool. Asylum is a wonderful addition to its HoT effects. and tetragrammaton. Giving WHM an instant cast heal thats a bit stronger than cure II. Cure III is also a great aoe tool. WHM excells at AoE and Single target healing. No cards, no faeries, just plain and simple, keep the party alive.

So with these changes to AST, i ask again, how is WHM dead? I dont see any SCHs crying because AST has better shields than them now. If it wasnt dead before 3.4, it isnt dead after

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Originally Posted by Elspeth

-Snip-

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You're making a slight mistake here by giving potencies that much importance.

WHM will by no means be dead, but it's also not optimum as the final Alex raid is to be lower in difficulty. The identity of the WHM is to provide the highest healing output via its vast healing toolkit. This can act as a safety net for many groups, however such high potencies have not actually been a requirement for any raid so far.

As such d.AST, which isn't even far behind potency wise, has been a strong competitor for the main healer role. People have argued that WHMs superior burst DPS can account for AST bringing party buffs. But with such a significant buff to the AST cards, and the ability to extend them even further, WHM is cetainly behind at this point.

My own prediction is that any healing comp will be viable in 3.4, however I would say WHM/AST is still least likely to be the most desired. Potencies will certainly help n.AST, but it wasn't really the issue. And with d.AST being even better, I can only predict AST/SCH as being the most optimal pairing.

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Originally Posted by Elspeth

I dont see any SCHs crying because AST has better shields than them now. If it wasnt dead before 3.4, it isnt dead after

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Why would we? Scholar is not just about adlo and succor.
He have a fairy and her buff, we have Aetherflow stack and strong instant heal (indom,lustrate), eye for an eye, deploiement tactic, a lot of dot, energy drain to get some more mana...
It's a different gameplay. We don't have the same skills. And it's the same for WHM.

The problem now is not the class themself. They're all great, and none of them is "dead".
The problem is and will be player who think that a healer must be on the top of the other, and that we must have a 'indentity' and such.

Honestly.
Every pair will now be great. AST/WHM WHM/SCH SCH/AST.
That's how it should have been from the beginning.

Play the gameplay you want and stop wondering if you still are useful. You'll always will. Just play your class now at your highest level to make it shine.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Every pair will now be great. AST/WHM WHM/SCH SCH/AST, and AST/AST.

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Fixed.
Hello fflogs.