Summoner needs a slight buff.

Pretty much every regular PvP player says DRK and SMN are trash tier now. I barely see any main SMNs in Chaos's Top100, let alone with over 47% win rate (comparing to some BLMs with 60% and more). The nerfs were too harsh, Dots were a good chunk of SMN's dps, but now Bio does only 160 potency over it's whole duration which is less than Ruin III. All 3 Dots are easliy healable, and are usually purified by awared players instantly before Fester, sometimes resulting in a lost AF stack and burst as it requires all 3 stacks.
The burst is very important in The Feast but SMN's is kinda weak, around 1000 potency less than bard's. Almost impossible to kill anyone with it unless target's HP is half/low.
That leaves SMN currently as a support job and not proper full force dps, with a role of weakening targets HP for melee LBs and binding with Blizzard II/Tri-bind to help a healer.

SMN is definitely not trash tier. Just very few play it right. They also are not able to solo healers, so are more reliant on melee to do that. I'd take a good SMN over BRD/MCH/BLM any day in solo Feast.

SMN runs a healer out of MP, and applies constant pressure / periodic burst for finishing targets. Other ranged just apply burst every so often without the constant pressure. It's different, but it's not bad by any means. A good SMN is scary.

Oh god... no, just no. My mp pool hurts just thinking about it.

MP drains fast with any dps composition, especially on scholars, Adlo costs more MP than Cure II. I don't know why they don't use full Piety+Crits builds, much more useful in pvp than Spell Speed or Determination. Even worse if they have all Vitality accessories.

Smn is plenty powerful, if it's being used correctly. Even post-nerf, it has excellent stopping power if it is allowed to cast freely. The nearly constant barrage of status effects and chip damage is a nightmare to deal with. The only saving grace is that it is generally a glass cannon. It's no surprise that it has the potential to under perform in a smaller, arena, setting, where it doesn't have a swarm of teammates to hide behind. Blm suffers the same drawbacks, and they're being nerfed further, not buffed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuperZay

I don't know why they don't use full Piety+Crits builds, much more useful in pvp than Spell Speed or Determination. Even worse if they have all Vitality accessories.

---

I don't heal PvP, myself, so I could be way off on this one, but I imagine this had a lot to do with resource management and burst potential. Bursts are not like tank busters in a raid. You're not getting the damage in one single large hit. You're getting it in multiple smaller hits. Having a faster reaction time is more useful in that situation than a flat out stronger heal. Further, having a bigger mana pool to draw from doesn't mean much if you're not casting fast enough to heal through the bursts.

I experience this same thing myself, though to a smaller extent, on Pld. Clemency is a slow and clunky 2 second cast bar. I can use it to supplement a healer, but I can't use it to save someone from a full burst. It's just too slow. It also burns my Mp really quickly, which makes mp regen a pain. After a heavy burst of healing, I really rely on downtime to allow for a natural regen. Any time the enemy is forced to retreat back into their base is invaluable time for rest and replenishment. I can't say for sure, but I imagine that most healers have similar concerns when healing in Feast. Striking a balance between speed and available resources would be something to consider when putting together their builds.

The ranged role in feast is support. You nailed that one on the head.
All 4 ranged classes can get kills on their own but their main role is to weaken or supplement the rest of their team's damage or provide peels under certain conditions.
Regarding the use of fester, you should not open with fester. You should be using energy drain or painflare if your goal is dreadwyrm trance off the bat.


How are you using tri disaster?

I think SMN is the weakest job at this moment. Them and the BLMs. I think SMN is even weaker than BLM because BLM has some self defend skills like their barrier and teleport, can also AoE sleep but SMN has nearly nothing.

I don't even use purify for tri-disaster anymore, better save it for something else. Deathflare is like a scratch now. It does as much damage as my Raiton, for god sake.

I agree that SMN need a little buff.

But BRD and MCH should be nerfed a little, too.

ALL ranged DPS apply pressure to healers, it's not unique to SMN. How come BRD, BLM, and MCH get this same "pressure applying" pro that SMN apparently has, but better, AND have better burst and CC on top of it? SMN burst is nullified with a cooldown (not that I'd recommend doing it in every case but it's something unique you can do to counter SMN that you can't counter the others with), they have garbage CC like a SIX SECOND BIND with a long cast time that can be LoS'D, and blizzard II which is actually pretty good. Other than that though they're sitting ducks. BLM are damage and CC monsters with infinitely better defensive cooldowns, BRD has hugely frontloaded burst that HAS to be answered with stunlocking or debuffing, MCH sick burst that actually goes on for much longer than BRD so even if you don't kill someone within 3 or 4 GCDs you're still going until they're fucked, along with some pretty good CC too, both those jobs also have Manasong/Report which is essential for drawn out fights.

But nah man, SMN has bane, that means they're in a good spot. You can bane 3 gimped DoTs, it's great! Face it, the other ranged DPS are better supports and better damage dealers. SMN may not be completely dumpster tier but in comparison to the others it may as well be. The greatest tool they have is Miasma II (which is usually very underutilized by people) and bane.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Praesul

they have garbage CC like a SIX SECOND BIND

---

This is actually super irritating to tanks, just fyi. Binds are one of the worst CC's to deal with for a tank, right up there with stuns, because neither Pld or War have access to Fetter Ward. A well timed bind can completely screw with a Pld's support utility and throw a massive wrench into a War's burst rotation. Of the two, Pld's do have access to Tempered Will, but it has an obnoxiously long CD timer. They only use it around 3 times a match, on average. Some of the most irritating CC I've ever had to deal with has been at the hands of Smn's who make good use of their binds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Praesul

lots of things

---

First of all, no ranged puts out as much constant pressure as a good SMN.

Second of all, I never even mentioned Bane. The best SMN's don't even use bane unless there's a 4 stack opportunity. Play against Elia on Primal sometime and you'll see what I mean. I think I have a 100% win rate with her on my team as SMN and me MNK. I can't say that about any other ranged DPS, not even last seasons Rank 1 MCH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koltik

Play against Elia on Primal sometime and you'll see what I mean. I think I have a 100% win rate with her on my team as SMN and me MNK. I can't say that about any other ranged DPS, not even last seasons Rank 1 MCH.

---

You both have high win rates because you're skilled and invested players; what job you play is a detail of that achievement, not its definition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koltik

I'd take a good SMN over BRD/MCH/BLM any day in solo Feast.

---

b-but Curty tho....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koltik

First of all, no ranged puts out as much constant pressure as a good SMN.

Second of all, I never even mentioned Bane. The best SMN's don't even use bane unless there's a 4 stack opportunity. Play against Elia on Primal sometime and you'll see what I mean. I think I have a 100% win rate with her on my team as SMN and me MNK. I can't say that about any other ranged DPS, not even last seasons Rank 1 MCH.

---

Oh god the suffering i go through healing through a 4+ stack bane. Focalization is not even close to being enough to prevent a strong summoner. :( Only effective way of fighting that kind of damage is Surecast / equinamity cure 3 bombs and thats not happening in solo que.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koltik

First of all, no ranged puts out as much constant pressure as a good SMN.

---

A BRD multi DoTing and spamming bloodletter applies very good pressure, a BLM CCing and casting fire IV applies enormous pressure (to the point where they completely change the dynamic of the match just BY EXISTING), and MCH has long, drawn out burst damage that has to be focused on while the other DPS and the tank are free to do whatever they want during the duration (not to mention they also bring a physical damage debuff that can't be purified, so it's like a better ranged version of Sole Survivor and Trick Attack)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koltik

Play against Elia on Primal sometime and you'll see what I mean. I think I have a 100% win rate with her on my team as SMN and me MNK. I can't say that about any other ranged DPS, not even last seasons Rank 1 MCH

---

Nobody cares what ONE player can do, it's not relevant. One player could do amazing DPS in pvp as AST but that doesn't mean it's good at it. The results are what we should be looking at, I don't know about the JP or EU data centers, and I don't play on Primal, but on Aether the highest SMN main is actually me, and I don't even play SMN anymore so I don't think even that counts. The top spots are all DRG/MNK/MCH with some healers, some BRD, and some tanks.

I don't doubt that a SMN player can do exceptionally well, I'm sure they could. But they'd get better results on another job.

Dear OP, BLMs get higher winrate because people get impatient over their CC mindgames and lose composture instead of shutting them down properly. They're a easy an easy target to be shut down when everyone plays correctly and can't provide much help to party once everyone resists their Sleep and Binds. Also Sleeps aren't reliable on solo queues. SMNs are at the moment also harder to play. Yes dots don't deal much damage but their damage over your Malady spam will not only drain opposing healer's MP but once they succumb to preassure to cast a dispell GCD you get a free 2s to burst withh your OGCDs. No, Summoner is not trash tier my fellow pvper. Thats just one example on how good a SMN can be, other of his utilities are a Virus that can reduce Mind (reduce heals), Tri-Bind and Stun/Knockback depending on your pet of choice.

For Praesul: Summoner main pressure is high pet damage, strong multi dotting over Malady (heal reducing debuff) spam.
At Koltik: As a healer, Hypercharge is also a pretty scary pressure if the MCH knows how to apply on evertyone, wich isn't hard. But yeah, its a cooldown.

Applying hypercharge to everything is ineffective in terms of dps.

SMN does need a buff, after playing it more I'm kinda ok ish with the potency of their skills atm although I would really want Deathflare and Painflare potencies back. My main gripe is that Aetherflows can actually fail to turn into Aethertrails, in the most stupid of situations sometimes. A last second LoS can have your Fester go off but not give you a trail for example.