Please fix the dragoon ability "jump"

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Thank you Square-Enix for making the "jump" ability for Dragoon much more fun and interesting.

Since patch 4.0 I feel Jump is now utilized in fights as it should be. You can perform jump during push back attacks, including spineshatter dive and dragonfire dive to really execute fun and interesting positional changes. No longer is it just a "gap closer" but these actions, including elusive jump can be used to maneuver around the arenas and gain footing over foes.

I also enjoy using "jump" during parts in fights where i need to be away from the boss, due to "stack up" or other type mechanics.

To further make dragoons jumps fun and exciting, i'm very glad they added "Mirage" dive to Jump and Spineshatter dives.

To me i now feel Dragoon feels as it should. I can evade push back attacks and maneuver around the arena as a dragoon traditionally can in previous installments of the game.

Good job with 4.0+ Dragoon!

(Warning, this is someones personal opinion, you might not agree with it... shocking.)

Ahhhhh no, the jump animation has already fix twice. You just need to play better.

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Originally Posted by Kai_Lee

Ahhhhh no, the jump animation has already fix twice. You just need to play better.

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I already knew the animation lock for jump was changed. So you arent enlightening me in anyway.

Also what are you trying to imply by "play better"?

I already said i enjoy the depth Jump gives to dragoon.

The request here is for the traditional style of playing dragoon in Final Fantasy.

The traditional style of dragoon is from kain from ffiv in which case jump wasnt instant, it took the player out of the battlefield until he landed in which case he can get hurt.

All dps can be hurt of they use a move or refuse to move if they are in aoe range of attacks. So "play better" means learning the fight to avoid such mistake.

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Originally Posted by Kai_Lee

The traditional style of dragoon is from kain from ffiv in which case jump wasnt instant, it took the player out of the battlefield until he landed in which case he can get hurt.

All dps can be hurt of they use a move or refuse to move if they are in aoe range of attacks. So "play better" means learning the fight to avoid such mistake.

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Much better response.


Why werent you capable of saying that initially?

Also, to add to your statement, while jumping, the player was invincible. When landing they could get hurt again.

When jumping they were unable to be healed.

In XIV all of this is skewed due to the nature of its design.

So, if we wanted to go further, taking into consideration your now proper response, I would say "cannot be healed for 4 seconds" also.

Now things are getting convoluted. At which point Square-Enix would weigh and consider the responses to the thread and make a choice. That is in fact what the forums are for.

Your initial response? Would not help me nor the development team. It would not help me, cause i personally dont have an issue of timing jump.

I've used dragoon in Thordan EX many times. At first I was using Jump at a place in the fight where animation lock caused me to get hit by his half-room aoe. Now I use Jump earlier and avoid that issue entirely.

Basically you have to time your Jumps for when you know you're not going to need mobility during that second or so.

Youre absolutely right Bounddreamer.

I actually enjoy the depth Dragoon has in this game. I play it very often.

The point of this thread though, is for Square-Enix to keep that depth, but also consider that a Dragoon traditionally doesnt just die at the hands of a boss, and the rest of the party does not, where they normally wouldnt, because they used Jump.

In fact, its the contrary. Sometimes the party would die to an attack and the Dragoon would live, because they jumped. I'm not asking for that part though.

Jump is more of a situational if you cannot do jump without going back into an aoe its better to use spine a dead dps is no dps

Jump is something you use after Full Thrust + Life Surge + Power Surge + Blood for Blood for a guaranteed climax. Other than that just ignore the skill.

My rotation is ht id ir bl dis bfb botd ct 4th leg ph spine power dragon full or true vorpal jump life full or true ger ht i don't use pot but it will be at ls. But jump is my top ogcd. Weird ik

Jump is totally meant for hitting those mobs down the middle of the staircase in hawke manor normal being a fresh dragoon trying to look cool, when upon bouncing off the head of the enemy you roll back and fall down into the pit, to aggro all the skeletons downstairs and cause not only you, but the rest of the party to panic.

but yeah its been fixed a couple times, all the jumps, theyre way better than LOLDRG 2.0 . If anything i wish elusive jump had its recast reduced some, half would be nice, but that might be asking for too much.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Jump has a significantly long animation lock.

This is not a real problem when it comes to playing the game effectively.

In some cases it even makes Dragoon more fun, cause it creates a depth of timing or difficulty thats specific only to dragoon.

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The problem here, is this is not in the tradition of Final Fantasy.

The simple fix for this, without creating any form of "overpowered" or "invincibility" is this:

Jump:

Delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
Returns you to your original position after the attack is made.
Cannot be executed while bound.

Additional Effect:
HP cannot be reduced below 1 HP for 4 seconds.


(could even add a diminishing return so that the effect doesnt work at all until 3 or so jumps later. Or more. whatever.)





This would not only keep the tradition of Final Fantasy, because traditionally Dragoons became invincible during jumps, but also, it would still hurt the dragoon significantly if timed incorrectly. This way you keep the difficulty of dragoon in battles, but gain the effectiveness of jump.

Plus i'm sure if the healer has to focus the tank they cant heal the dragoon, and if another area of effect goes out they would still die.

On top of this, heals are less MP than a raise, and dragoon is the only job with such a long animation lock that would kill them. Shoulder tackle is long but its not nearly as long.

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Another problem here, is that when learning a fight, or returning to a fight after a bit of time, one could forget when to do jump so it does not kill you.

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Ahhh but that's the skill of the drg, knowing when to jump. What you are proposing will break endgame raids because it allows you to cheese mechanics every 30 sec (what you propose is literally a 30sec cd holmgang with no drawbacks). I know it sounds hard but you need to learn when to jump for each and every fight, that is part of the drg skill ceiling. It's the price you pay for one of the most hard hitting skills in your inventory (2nd only to chaos thrust)

The same problem occurs with Plunge and (to lesser degree) Shoulder Tackle.
Why should Jump alone get a Holmgang effect just to counter a universal issue with enemy-targeted movement skills?

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The problem here, is this is not in the tradition of Final Fantasy.

The simple fix for this, "without creating any form of 'overpowered' or 'invincibility" is this:

Jump:

Delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
Returns you to your original position after the attack is made.
Cannot be executed while bound.

Additional Effect:
HP cannot be reduced below 1 HP for 4 seconds.

(could even add a diminishing return so that the effect doesn't work at all until 3 or so jumps later. Or more. whatever.)

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You say without creating any form of "overpowered" or "invincibility" and then append an undying effect (damn close to invincibility) that I (and probably many others) can't help but find overpowered.

Nothing about the current form of Jump is infringing about the "tradition" of DRGs in Final Fantasy in any way that your proposed fix would counter. Nor would your fix be effective in countering any negative community perceptions of Dragoons consequent to Jumps. You'd still be a burden to healers. You'd still look like the guys who can't dodge. You can blame that on Jump's ~1.6-second animation lock, but you'd still be that guy. Plunge's animation and movement lock is just as long. But now you'd just also be able to escape every one-shot that any Warrior can, allowing healers to shield up themselves, the OT to pop mitigation, and 4 DRGs to just take a would-be (non-spammed) wipe mechanic to the face with a well-timed Jump.

Now, that invincibility would have a traditional place, if only (1) the damage avoidance was limited to when you're in the air and (2) you paid an uptime penalty for using the skill (it can still be a dps gain, but it should cost you a full "turn" / GCD).

Alternatively, if you think that movement locks of such an extent in general reduce gameplay quality or 'quality of life', then change them universally. Reduce the animation lock on Shoulder Tackle and Plunge, allow them to adjust their aim around the target, allowing themselves to position towards the far side, down the left or right, etc. Do the same for both Dive abilities, and perhaps even for Aetherial Manipulation. As for Jump, allow the player to move his landing position throughout the animation, perhaps even hastened. Give Shukuchi a more appreciable range and shave off a bit more animation lock time to keep Ninjas on par for QoL changes.

Without that, you are asking for an ability made overpowered by an invincibility component, with no relation to the traditional gameplay you attributed the fix to.

But you are invincible while Jump...except to one-shot mechanics^^
You are semi-invincible while in the air for two times like 0.2 seconds...so it is in line with the claimed DRG tradition of Jump.
Its "invincibility" is just shortend from a complete turn/GCD to this 0.x seconds cause we are now in "realtime" and no longer in turnbased or in the ATB schedule.
And tbh this "tradition" is only born from the system limitations of the former platforms and battle systems.
If you want a jump in the old style it would need 2 GCD to hit and wouldn't be oGCD, maybe it would consume some extra seconds of HotD.

But you give me an idea i have to think about^^ maybe you will hear from me later

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Originally Posted by Legion88

But you are invincible while Jump...except to one-shot mechanics^^
You are semi-invincible while in the air for two times like 0.2 seconds...so it is in line with the claimed DRG tradition of Jump.
Its "invincibility" is just shortend from a complete turn/GCD to this 0.x seconds cause we are now in "realtime" and no longer in turnbased or in the ATB schedule.
And tbh this "tradition" is only born from the system limitations of the former platforms and battle systems.
If you want a jump in the old style it would need 2 GCD to hit and wouldn't be oGCD, maybe it would consume some extra seconds of HotD.

But you give me an idea i have to think about^^ maybe you will hear from me later

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Pretty sure you're not invincible at all during jump, even while in the air.

I just wish when I jumped over things (Like Traps in PoTD) it would not count as me hitting them... Using Spine/Dragonfire on a MoB from one side of the room just to activate a Lure is annoying. ><

They've already said they don't want to add any invincibility to this.

I don't even get why they have animation locks in the first place. It's such a stupid mechanic.

"tradition of Final Fantasy" "MMO balance" you cant have 1 without the other

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Originally Posted by DanteDawnes

"tradition of Final Fantasy" "MMO balance" you cant have 1 without the other

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Yeah, i agree with you there.

Giving a 4 sec invincibility to DRG would be a pretty big boost to dps in a lot of cases. As well as making it an extremely good oh **** button if the DRG screws up a mechanic. In other words that's just too big of a buff to implement those changes. Also shoulder tackle doesn't have an animation lock unless you're right next to the target

DRG jumps are just silly imo. There's no reason they should lock you on place for a good second, it just makes you more vulnerable to potential boss attacks, positionals are too more annoying to land etc. Like, does MNK get locked on place when they do Elixir Field, Steel Peak, Howling Fist? No right? Why the hell DRG jumps do then? They are all OGCDS. It's rather inconsistent.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

DRG jumps are just silly imo. There's no reason they should lock you on place for a good second, it just makes you more vulnerable to potential boss attacks, positionals are too more annoying to land etc. Like, does MNK get locked on place when they do Elixir Field, Steel Peak, Howling Fist? No right? Why the hell DRG jumps do then? They are all OGCDS. It's rather inconsistent.

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It seems to be somewhat the theme of the job though, they still have "normal" ogcds without animation lock like geirskogul and leg sweep. Never tried other jobs with gap closers so idk if they have similar animation locks (if any) or not.

Truth be told I think it's fine as it is. I've actually used the return property of the Jump as a way of quickly getting a nice hit in while a big AoE is being telegraphed. It would just be too OP if there is any kind of invincibility frames on it and I'm sure people would use it to cheese mechanics they're not supposed to cheese, especially in the raiding scene. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Gallus

DRG jumps are just silly imo. There's no reason they should lock you on place for a good second, it just makes you more vulnerable to potential boss attacks, positionals are too more annoying to land etc. Like, does MNK get locked on place when they do Elixir Field, Steel Peak, Howling Fist? No right? Why the hell DRG jumps do then? They are all OGCDS. It's rather inconsistent.

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The only jump that locks you is the ability Jump, shatter and dragon dive do not lock you and are gap closers if CD allows for that opportunity.

MNKs gap closer should tackle locks the character in place and NINs assassinate locks them in place.

Seems fairly consistent to me that all front line DPS have one ability that comes at a risk to use.

Why does Jump still lock you in animation but SSD and DFD do not? It's only a 200 Potency attack. Is it because it returns you to your original position? If so, please just make it like SSD then, or makr Jump a higher potency to justify the risk that no other oGCD ability has associated with it. Elixir Field is higher potency for example, but doesn't lock the Monk in place for 1.5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Why does Jump still lock you in animation but SSD and DFD do not? It's only a 200 Potency attack. Is it because it returns you to your original position?

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This is sound logic, but if we look at MNKs ability that locks them in place, shoulder tackle, for a mere 100 potency, we take almost the same risk with a lower potency skill, which in this case is unfair to MNK because shoulder tackle is our only gap closer where as a drug can close the gap with DFD or SSD, both of which do not lock you.

This lock is relative to distance though, the further away from your target you initiate this move which has animation lock, realistically, you will be locked in this for more time, so as a 60 drg, I notice a better turnover on a lock if I use jump point blank as opposed to at range because there is no "traveling" in between.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Why does Jump still lock you in animation but SSD and DFD do not? It's only a 200 Potency attack. Is it because it returns you to your original position? If so, please just make it like SSD then, or makr Jump a higher potency to justify the risk that no other oGCD ability has associated with it. Elixir Field is higher potency for example, but doesn't lock the Monk in place for 1.5 seconds.

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Well, a fully buffed jump (one in every two jumps if you do your rotation properly) is your strongest non dot skill (200 potency + 50% power surge + 30% botd = 390 potency), so I think it's fair enough that it comes with some risk.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Well, a fully buffed jump (one in every two jumps if you do your rotation properly) is your strongest non dot skill (200 potency + 50% power surge + 30% botd = 390 potency), so I think it's fair enough that it comes with some risk.

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its actually even more than that when you factor in Heavy Thrust and Disembowel due to multiplicative scaling. 1.15 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.3 x 200 =493.35 potency once every minute.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

its actually even more than that when you factor in Heavy Thrust and Disembowel due to multiplicative scaling. 1.15 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.3 x 200 =493.35 potency once every minute.

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Yes but HT and disembowel also buff the other skills, so I omitted them and only included the ones only affecting jump.

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Originally Posted by DanteDawnes

"tradition of Final Fantasy" "MMO balance" you cant have 1 without the other

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I strongly disagree with you.

I updated the original post to show how and why.

It simply takes more than 5 seconds worth of thought to come up with a way to accomplish it.

The best suggestion is keeping the animation lock for jump, while being able to take damage, but when using jump, or any iteration (Spineshatter, dragonfire) the player actually can jump over puddles of poison on the ground between them and the enemy or other such things.

This way it feels not only more fun, but also makes more sense.

As people have mentioned before, there is skill in learning when to Jump so the animation lock doesn't screw you over. As a summoner I would love that one second delay for Bio to land to disappear, but there is skill in timing your bane/fester and that makes me feel like a better player once I have this timing right. The same should go for Dragoon. After all it is hilarious watching a dragoon plunge head first into an aoe.

As for that 'living dead' effect, whilst a nice idea I could see that becoming exploitable in certain situations (just off the top of my head, tanking that tether in the second phase of Nidogg Ex), there's a reason only tanks get that ability and they are on fairly long cool downs.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

The best suggestion is keeping the animation lock for jump, while being able to take damage, but when using jump, or any iteration (Spineshatter, dragonfire) the player actually can jump over puddles of poison on the ground between them and the enemy or other such things.

This way it feels not only more fun, but also makes more sense.

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This happens anyway no?

Jump should make you untargetable for 2-5 seconds and have you land on the bum after the timer expires. Not hard.

The bosses are the real dragoons here.

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Jump should make you untargetable for 2-5 seconds and have you land on the bum after the timer expires. Not hard.

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This was fine in FFXI where mechanics were random and not scripted, though some earlier fights, a DRG could Super Jump over an Astral Flow or a Mijin Gakure. The problem is in FFXIV, mechanics are DEEPLY rooted into the battle and being able to avoid lethal damage would make DRG very overpowered. For example, when ROG/NIN was released they had a level 2 ability called Perfect Dodge which as the name suggests allowed players to dodge the next physical attack. There are some mechanics in raids that are physical and are counters/punishments for not doing the mechanics correctly. A NIN could just be like "lel noep" and not be punished for the mistake by using Perfect Dodge. So....they removed Perfect Dodge and gave them Shade Shift instead.

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Quote Originally Posted by Daniolaut View Post
The best suggestion is keeping the animation lock for jump, while being able to take damage, but when using jump, or any iteration (Spineshatter, dragonfire) the player actually can jump over puddles of poison on the ground between them and the enemy or other such things.

This way it feels not only more fun, but also makes more sense.
This happens anyway no?

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Nope. Any skill that makes you move, whether it's Aetherial Manipulation, Spineshatter Dive, or Shukuchi, you don't actually teleport despite what the animation looks like. Behind the scenes, you are running really fast (invisibly) to the point. So despite SSD showing you leaping over a puddle, if your invisible character model crosses over the puddle (straight line between point you jumped from to target), you eat the puddle effect. Now, if there's a ground AoE and you SSD over it and land before the AoE marker fades, you've 'crossed' it, but you didn't jump over it per se, more like you sprinted past it.