Palace of the dead and matched parties

Now, i know already what a lot of people are going to say to the words I'll be typing. Why don't -you- play healer then Veriden? Anyone who has spoken with me knows I have no head for playing a healer.
So, my issue with potd is the duty finder that comes with it, for floors 0-20 sure no healer is no problem...and even beyond that if you get lucky with not finding a mimic 10+ levels higher than you in the first room who wipes out your entire party.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tsu83h8Dzs

Later in the floors of this set the mimic would be no problem...since you know all the other monsters scale their level appropriate to the floor they are save for mimics who seem to be at max level for that series of floors (21-30 in this case) Now, the team wasn't bad players. At level 32 you don't get a whole lot of the good abilities..but had 1 of us been a healer, that run would have been far less embarrassing. or if the mimic was the same level of the monsters found on the 21st floor.

Well I see part of the problem here. Your Thamaturge was mostly spamming Blizzard, thus his DPS was low. The other issue I saw is nobody ever used potions on themselves to get another chance. People forget that potions drop like candy so that you can survive without a healer.

Pretty sure I used a potion, and second wind. Regardless with as little as potions heal and their long cool down they aren't much of a help at level 32 when you're taking 500+ damage per hit.

While I can't really comment on what abilities your group could or should've used at those levels, I know for a fact that THM was being the stereotypical Ice Mage which did not help you wear down the Mimic fast enough and then he dropped DPS entirely for weak Cures. Had he done his job properly, you probably could've won.

Personally I'd have adjusted and would have kited while spamming ranged attacks. More so if I was the mch with knockback. With 3 ranged fighters would have still been able to keep up the dps and staying out of range would have put some distance between self and mob when death trap went off.

not gonna use the nin ability to dodge all combat? it helps too

I do think the matchmaking could be improved. I tend to find I can't win with duty finder. If I go as scholar I end up in a party with like 3 scholars and an astrologian. If I go tank I get a party with 3 warriors and my paladin. And if I go dps. Not a tank or healer in sight lol.

Could use some tweaks

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I do think the matchmaking could be improved. I tend to find I can't win with duty finder. If I go as scholar I end up in a party with like 3 scholars and an astrologian. If I go tank I get a party with 3 warriors and my paladin. And if I go dps. Not a tank or healer in sight lol.

Could use some tweaks

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This exactly. Every time I play healer I end up in a multiple healer party (usually 3 of us and 1 dps), but as soon as I switch to a dps it's all dps, with sometimes one tank. There should certainly be some type of priority matching; although I get what they are trying to do with being able to queue with any combo any time.

Sorry, but that's the way palace is designed.

4 dps? Ok... That means we're better off playing safe, don't pull too much, is it worth opening that chest incase it's a mimic or should we avoid? 3 healers? Ok... Dps will be low, so watch that timer!

The whole point of palace is that every floor is a gamble and different. If you change the matchmaking to one tank, one healer and two dps it just becomes another generic dungeon run with nothing else to it. That's not how it's designed and frankly it's getting boring.

-Cont

The way it is now forces players to team up and think, actually use their class abilities (such as binds, stuns,) and potions to save themselves, rather than a tank pulling everything, the dps beating them up and the healer keeping health up - if you want that, go and play literally every single other instance in this game. I get it, it's frustrating sometimes when you spawn a mimic and stand on a luring trap - but that's the game. People wanted something different and here it is.

I just saw your video. My condolences.

It's actually why I like Palace of the Dead. It's a game of chance. You win some, you lose some. It's an instance that's always different and you have to think accordingly. I save my potions and keep a Phoenix Down in my inventory to help when things go bad. It's not like a raid or regular dungeon where you have to memorize mechanics. It's all about randomness. It may be just a bunch of mobs, but it's not as easy as it looks. It's why it's my favorite content.

Be nice if we could swap jobs like in frontlines while in PotD

It would be nice if they used the normal 1 tank, 2dps and a healer for potd. I have never tried myself but heard from other FC members of getting very random parties that don't always work very well. I have done pre made parties every time, 1 or 2 tanks, 1 or 2 dps and always a healer. Using this party format we have never failed to hit level 50 and clear. The 1 tank/dps can be switched out, though usually going as the healer I am not a fan of no tanks or no dps. Need at least one of each and I could careless what the 4th person is. We also use ts for every run and that helps a lot an keeps a fast pace every run. Down side to doing this, you need 4 ppl to have 2 hours on hand to do this. It seems like doing only half a run makes it harder to get the same ppl together to finish again. Plus more than 2 save slots would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Antonio_Xul

It's actually why I like Palace of the Dead. It's a game of chance. You win some, you lose some. It's an instance that's always different and you have to think accordingly. I save my potions and keep a Phoenix Down in my inventory to help when things go bad. It's not like a raid or regular dungeon where you have to memorize mechanics. It's all about randomness. It may be just a bunch of mobs, but it's not as easy as it looks. It's why it's my favorite content.

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I live in Palace of the Dead, and I agree its all about the randomness. That's the challenge. Gotta think and be aware of your surroundings. It's not just another mindless dungeon grind like expert roulette. I've had plenty parties with no healer, and while its not as easy, it can be done if all of you play it safe. Use potions during combat instead of inbetween, pull one mob at a time, ninja sneak certain coffers etc.

Palace is currently my favorite content because of this :3

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Originally Posted by Ryannex

The way it is now forces players to team up and think, actually use their class abilities (such as binds, stuns,) and potions to save themselves, rather than a tank pulling everything, the dps beating them up and the healer keeping health up - if you want that, go and play literally every single other instance in this game. I get it, it's frustrating sometimes when you spawn a mimic and stand on a luring trap - but that's the game. People wanted something different and here it is.

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While I can agree that part of the point of the dungeon is that it mixes things up, with 3 healers it is just boring [and often slow]. Sure I have to watch the timer, but I might as well duo with my hubby in that case, because on 2 smn we make the same time. Not everyone that comes in PotD is experienced with their class at later levels, so while this may add to the challenge it really isn't mixing anything up, it's just adding the potential for a wipe/waste of time. I'm not saying you can't be successful with any party, and yes that is part of the fun. I've had all dps parties that got a floor with no items enchantment, auto-heal disabled, and had no serenities, and we still succeeded. I mentioned priority matching not as a guarantee to get the regular boring party make up, but if there are 100 people queuing, 20 of which are healers, not all of the healers will end up in the same party/ies. It doesn't have to be the same matching system we have for other duties, because I agree that would be boring, but when I enter a party with 2 other healers and I'm on one myself, my feeling isn't "all right, a challenge!" it's "ugh, I'm in for a long haul". On another point, I'm not saying healers can't dps, but their dps in PotD seems to be lower than it is normally (probably due to aetherpool system). Honestly, I'd rather enter a party with all dps than all healers, but not everyone may feel that way.

Edit: To clarify what I mean by "priority matching", the system would work the same way it does now, but if there are a very large amount of a role (for example healers) then it will attempt to spread them more thin throughout the parties queuing. As ADVSS mentions below, there isn't much issue with an all dps party [usually], the only real issue is too many healers in the same party.

honestly before heavensward hit, my friends and i would go in normal dungeons with 4 tanks, or 4 dps or whatever make up. This dungeon is great, and can suck if say you got some derpy deeps who cause a run to fail, but in my experience a 4 dps party pulling one mob at a time, can usually beat times of a normal party, or one with a tank. add a healer, and like pvp/frontlines, its usually a win, or a better situation. But as far as the dungeon goes, its totally(and brutally easier) to do with all dps as long as the party is cautious and smart.

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Originally Posted by Millen1

It would be nice if they used the normal 1 tank, 2dps and a healer for potd. I have never tried myself but heard from other FC members of getting very random parties that don't always work very well.

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The only party that doesn't work very well is the one you don't work very well in. PoTD has been soloed by quite a few players now, meaning that even with horrible party members it's still possible to make it through by yourself.

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Originally Posted by Mirakumi

not gonna use the nin ability to dodge all combat? it helps too

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If I recall correctly. They changed that, you don't dodge anything anymore. Just take less damage.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

If I recall correctly. They changed that, you don't dodge anything anymore. Just take less damage.

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Nah, I use it all the time in PoD. It's pretty dodgey ;p

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Originally Posted by Mirakumi

Nah, I use it all the time in PoD. It's pretty dodgey ;p

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Are you talking about Shade Shift? Because that used to be an attack called Perfect Dodge. This change was made back in Patch 2.4

The risk of wipes is what sets PoTD apart from other content. And the non standard party comp makes it more enjoyable and challenging. Why are we complaining about things being hard and different? Surf the forums people hate standard easy dungeons

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

The risk of wipes is what sets PoTD apart from other content. And the non standard party comp makes it more enjoyable and challenging. Why are we complaining about things being hard and different? Surf the forums people hate standard easy dungeons

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PoTD is no where near hard. Maybe with floor 100+. But basically if your group knows what their doing and knows how to handle the traps then there isn't much risk. The risky part is when you're with 3 dps and none of them know how to handle traps or the situation at hand. Like that guy that always opens up a chest while you're in the middle of a fight causing a massive explosion to whipe the party because they didn't stop and think it could be a trap.

Or the person that instead of pulling the mobs into a passage way, where you know there are no traps, they instead run directly into the room with no healer in the party. Risking getting turned into a frog, getting a damage taken up debuff, or eatting a bomb to the face right after engaging a mob.

Heck a majority of randoms I've ran into don't even use the orbs we're given to buff themselves up. Which if used correctly make PoTD even easier than a normal dungeon

But in the end. I guess I agree with you because I don't find it hard at all and hope they actually do make it hard.

The matching algorithm needs a rewrite.

Not much challenge in having 100% success rate with 1-2 healers in the party (connection issues aside) and abysmally less with mixed tank/dps compositions.

There is little reason in assembling simultaneously parties with more than 1 healers and 0 tanks and parties with 2 tanks and 0 healers for content that is not adjusted accordingly.

Furthermore, the usual duty tools (vote-dismiss, vote-abandon) are unavailable, lending to griefing by prolonged failed runs (have had some of this; even got reported for not taking the abuse).

Also, a note to players who see that their party composition and skill level do not suffice to complete the duty (especially upper floor sets): report immediatelly party members who attempt to force you to stay in the duty, since their intention is evidently not completion.

I think the design is fine to an extent, it just punishes people who expect it to be breezed like normal dungeons.
I say because ive had potd clears on 41-50F with craptastic setups with
4 healers (super squishy kite master),
4 tanks (no heals mutiple Cairns of Return yohoho pox),
4 DD (kiting galore)
I honestly have a mix n match of any number of diff. classes than 4 of each as it an be an honest nightmare
but it can be fun and challenging and sometimes laughable if you know how to be careful and wary.
But this is assuming everyone in the party is using what they need to. (proper skills, potions, situational awareness)
Most people are so used to potd as a breeze that parties with unexpected 'cracks' wipe them.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Well I see part of the problem here. Your Thamaturge was mostly spamming Blizzard, thus his DPS was low. The other issue I saw is nobody ever used potions on themselves to get another chance. People forget that potions drop like candy so that you can survive without a healer.

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Not only survive but thrive. 4 dps parties are the best. Yes, even in 41-50. If you run into bad players or think you've just run into them, just have a macro handy about the common sense rules of potd:

Ranged pull mobs
Don't open chests in combat
If you think it might agro, just pull it
Don't split up
Stuns are important, don't waste them

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Stuns are important, don't waste them

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My god i cant stress how important this was. lol
thankfully in potd about 2/10 mob species are stun resistant. :D:D:D

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Originally Posted by Cordie

Furthermore, the usual duty tools (vote-dismiss, vote-abandon) are unavailable, lending to griefing by prolonged failed runs (have had some of this; even got reported for not taking the abuse).

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Um, they're definitely there. I've had several instances where we've had to boot ppl (offline, harassment, etc) and the DF will drop in a person in-progress no prob.

Also the challenge is still there if the two healers you get aren't very good at their job, and the run becomes very slow to the point of timing out. Bonus if it's 3 healers. :D

I can say though, that I am addicted to Palace due to the very random nature of it (party set-up, skill, situations with traps etc). Working on my 6th weapon already.... ._.

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Originally Posted by Centershock

Are you talking about Shade Shift? Because that used to be an attack called Perfect Dodge. This change was made back in Patch 2.4

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Yes Shade Shift. It makes it easy to solo Mimics, if you get boned on Nin sometimes.