Thoughts for a bard song

Dusted off my BRD today, and Foe's Requiem got me thinking...

What if there was a sort of inverse song-- a song that, for party members in range, increases healing received (perhaps by 10 or 15%)?

I think I like this better than directly healing since, as with Foe's and spellcasters, it increases the power of others in the party which seems to fit with the theme of Bard.

Thoughts?
Other ideas for songs?

There'd be even less reason to take a Monk then (Mantra).

Personally I'd like to see another debuff song, but I can't think of one that wouldn't throw off the balance with Machinists completely. Shame on SE for creating another class that is functionally similar to Bard in terms of support. :/

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

There'd be even less reason to take a Monk then (Mantra).

Personally I'd like to see another debuff song, but I can't think of one that wouldn't throw off the balance with Machinists completely. Shame on SE for creating another class that is functionally similar to Bard in terms of support. :/

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This is the problem we have SE totally messed up with MCH/BRD. Ok fine maybe not totally as they work, but they are now stuck in a situation it would be incredibly difficult to get them out of. Give BRD a song that increases healing? Well MCH needs to get that too (or something similar) otherwise it'll be left out, repeat this add infititum.

The situtation isn't a good one for both jobs.

To be honest I see all the jobs in the same boat. In the name of 'balance' they have managed to make most of the jobs feel like clones with different animations. When people talk about adding 'new jobs' to the game I can't see the point - cause it will not be unique or different to what we already have.

I like to see the threnodies like in FFXI (increasing a specific stat like STR/VIT/DEX/INT/MND)

I'd just like to see an ability that allows us a lot more specific-target or point-support through songs we already have.

In turn, give Machinists something actually engineer like, with greater synergy and toolkit options through their turrets and gun attachments.

(A horrible pipe-dream to get stuck in your head: rogue or artificer (new class) cross-class abilities for MCH allowing you to steal / scavenge parts by which to improve your machines.)

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

This is the problem we have SE totally messed up with MCH/BRD. Ok fine maybe not totally as they work, but they are now stuck in a situation it would be incredibly difficult to get them out of. Give BRD a song that increases healing? Well MCH needs to get that too (or something similar) otherwise it'll be left out, repeat this add infititum.

The situtation isn't a good one for both jobs.

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I just want to understand why the devs thought it was a good idea to create a class specifically designed to compete with BRD, even down to using the exact same party mechanics (just done in a different way). I mean I'm sure they wanted to stomp the idea that a Bard may be seen as mandatory in every party (and that was probably the case throughout 2.x, but I wasn't around then). But I've never seen a game successfully address that issue by releasing a new class that didn't horribly backfire in the end, and those were classes that had far less similarities compared to BRD and MCH.

It's also for that reason that I'm indifferent on the idea of any new jobs being added to this game. New jobs shouldn't be released for the sake of having new jobs if we're going to end up with this sort of situation again. Plenty of games have been ruined balance-wise in the end for the sake of meeting a 'new class release quota', which clearly took up valuable development resources as well.

I've played some games that did get around such things by retooling existing classes instead, even though it ran the risk of alienating existing players of that class (although it can't be as awkward as the Bard transition into Wanderer's Minuet).

I always kinda wish they would give the bard a song that would rez a singe party member, I dunno it's just something I imagined a bard would do what with the whole supporting songs theme it has going for it.

Maybe you'd need to have full MP to use it and when you do it completely drains it all. Add a long CD to it so it wouldn't be completely broken either. Just a fun little thought I always have :p

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

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Good point, this game has it worse though as everyone is expecting FFXI classes for no other reason than "FFXI had them". It's like a checklist they are going through and ticking off as they go along. When the inevitable release happens I can be sure there is going to be massive dissapointment.

I've been for removing regen as support since 2.0 it's counter-intuitive to has someone manage resources when that can easily be done by the individual player, it would open up the possibility for more varied support options... Well I supposed it would if CC was a thing but again unfortunatly it isn't which makes alot of my MCH toolset redundant anyway (can't even heavy trash in the latest content).

It's pretty disheartening to say the least, I enjoy the game but this is my main gripe (for every job role) and it's a pretty big one to have.

Why not have a super slight haste song? :3

Sometimes music just makes you wanna get up and move, y'know? It'll give Bards a reason to sing when the Healer's struggling to heal in time (or not taking advantage of DPS uptime) and there's not a Caster in the group.

There's a few issues I can think of when introducing a new song for Brd:

1) Mch have to have them in some way be it hypercharge or whatever

2)Might be too OP or make classes invaluable, as it stands you can do content with all classes none are excluded

3)More skill bloat. Idk about you but i'm running out of keybinds.

I'm worried about what they're going to make next I don't hate Brd or Mch I personally enjoy them but these 2 are going to be the ones that need the most retuning or rebalancing in a way. Gods only know what we'll get in 4.0.

BRD should get a Limit Break Lv3 buff song.

Gives bonus to all stats (attack, defense, STR, DEX, INT, etc), HP Regen, MP Regen, TP Regen, and Haste for 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Awful

1) Mch have to have them in some way be it hypercharge or whatever

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Correct..

Back on topic, during Bard job quest the NPC has 3 other songs.

1) Reduce damage taken by 10%
2) Restore HP gradually to party members
3) Increase dps of party members (something similar to balance)

All the songs comes with the cost of personal dps.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

There'd be even less reason to take a Monk then (Mantra).

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You'd still want to take a MNK. The combination of Mantra plus this BRD idea would be strong as hell alone, before you throw in SCH and Eos abilities.

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Personally I'd like to see another debuff song, but I can't think of one that wouldn't throw off the balance with Machinists completely. Shame on SE for creating another class that is functionally similar to Bard in terms of support. :/

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Only real similarity support wise is the MP/TP regen. MCHs can boost physical DPS (including their own) and magic users (BRD can only do the latter), have a Silence and Stun (BRD only has the former), a Bind and Slow (again, BRD only has the former), and can mitigate physical and magic damage (BRD can do neither). The only things BRD can do that MCH can't is preemptively remove a debuff before it occurs, and aid in healer DPS via Rain of Death (but healers meld to meet acc caps anyway, so this one doesn't really count).

One idea I had was for BRDs to get a counter part to Dismantle/Rend Mind, but instead of applying a debuff to a target you instead apply a buff to the party that reduces incoming damage by x%. Unlike MCHs, which is based on whether the damage is physical/magical, BRDs version would be based on the potency of the incoming damage, so would operate similar to AST's Disable.

This is my BRD song
I give MP song
I'm now a Mage song

Blunt Arrow's on cooldown
Did my rotation wrong
I'll sing my BRD song

And I don't really care
What anyone else believes
We already have enough utility

Hmm. First, thanks to those that contributed their ideas to the discussion.


However, to those that are essentially "But what about X job?"--
If devs/designers went into it with that attitude, we wouldn't have half of the HW abilities for ANY job. Don't worry so much about other jobs. Whatever we get for the next expac, all the others will share in it. MCH will get cool stuff. MNK will get cool stuff. And so on.

This, however, is a discussion about bard, and not those jobs. If you think my or anyone else's ideas here don't fit the job because bard already has enough utility/needs moar DPS, or is just not thematic, or whatever else. Cool. But if you do agree with one of them, also cool.

But, please, the "but what about MCH!?" posts are cringey. If you want something for MCH (or another job), by all means make a thread for it. Otherwise, rest assured they'll get however much or little everyone else gets when 4.0 launches.

And, again, thank you to those that stayed on topic and shared your ideas.

What I want to see for bard going forward:


- whispering dawn type of aoe heal - either a ogcd CD - could even combo it with a consumes such and such MP on triggering it or consumes mp while reducing dps output
- bleeding shot - basically a physical resistance down debuff on a single target - with a 90s CD - I'm kinda opposed to a song that works like an aoe balance
- haste song - basically fey wind - consumes MP while up
- while I would like to see a ogcd combat rez on bard I doubt it'll happen but that would be nice - still should consume MP one way or another
- I still argue that the bard LB should be a buffs/helps restore resources all LB or the healer LB - maybe modified healer LB - but I do admit I would miss saggitarius arrow - gimme an option which one I can use...
- honestly I'd miss the casting by now - and I do in potd - just gotten so used to it - but we do lack something like rapid fire from mch to be able to have a bit of an extra movement with our main skills instead of feint spam
- I'm sure there's more stuff I forgot(since I wrote similar stuff in other threads) but that's about it

And just a P.S.: And I'd argue mch should get a different skillset from this. Maybe more defensive/offensive focused with another turret that gives like a damage resistance up and other such.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

This is the problem we have SE totally messed up with MCH/BRD. Ok fine maybe not totally as they work, but they are now stuck in a situation it would be incredibly difficult to get them out of. Give BRD a song that increases healing? Well MCH needs to get that too (or something similar) otherwise it'll be left out, repeat this add infititum.

The situtation isn't a good one for both jobs.

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It's not a problem though. This is just a silly idea thread. Obviously if he meant for a new thing to be implemented, you wouldn't just suggest 1 job get a new thing unless it needed it for balance reasons. Clearly the next time BRD will actually get a new song is when there's a new level cap, and then it'd be easily balanced between them and MCH with whatever they get.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

You'd still want to take a MNK. The combination of Mantra plus this BRD idea would be strong as hell alone, before you throw in SCH and Eos abilities.

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That's assuming the devs decide they want to have both stack, which given history, won't happen. So either we get a useless new song, or the only support MNK has becomes slightly less important.

Although if both are used separately, then maybe...

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I want a song that buffs the party by allowing DoT effects inflicted against enemies to last +10 seconds. That'd be a sight to behold, though deliberately benefiting some classes more than others. Hmm, but I guess that would make Scholars pull ahead of the other two healers even moreso than they already do.

Maybe an ability cooldown reduction song. Something to use during phase transitions if the others aren't hurting on MP/TP, I guess.

Make swift song usable in combat with a CD increases speed by 30% for a set time

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

That's assuming the devs decide they want to have both stack, which given history, won't happen. So either we get a useless new song, or the only support MNK has becomes slightly less important.

Although if both are used separately, then maybe...

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In what scenario has direct buffs to the party not been able to be stacked? Moves like Dragon Kick/Delirium and Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge operate as debuffs to the target (thus indirect buffs to the raid), which is why they overwrite each other. Meanwhile, if a BRD has Ballad/Paeon up and an AST uses an AOE Ewer/Spire, those effects will stack because they are direct buffs to the party. The OP's suggestion would pretty much be the BRD equivalent to moves like Fey Illumination and Mantra, moves which can both be up at the same time.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

In what scenario has direct buffs to the party not been able to be stacked? Moves like Dragon Kick/Delirium and Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge operate as debuffs to the target (thus indirect buffs to the raid), which is why they overwrite each other. Meanwhile, if a BRD has Ballad/Paeon up and an AST uses an AOE Ewer/Spire, those effects will stack because they are direct buffs to the party. The OP's suggestion would pretty much be the BRD equivalent to moves like Fey Illumination and Mantra, moves which can both be up at the same time.

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2 diurnal ASTs casting regens. Also, doesn't even need a precedent; they could make a new buff not stack if they wanted to. Not that hard.

Aspected Benefic is a HoT, not a buff. Try again.

Also abilities used by two or more players on the same Job will generally always overwrite each other... except BRD and MNK aren't the same Job. So again, give me an instance where similar/identical buffs from different Jobs don't stack.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Aspected Benefic is a HoT, not a buff. Try again.

Also abilities used by two or more players on the same Job will generally always overwrite each other... except BRD and MNK aren't the same Job. So again, give me an instance where similar/identical buffs from different Jobs don't stack.

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A hot is a buff, don't need to try again. Also for the other reason I listed.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

A hot is a buff, don't need to try again. Also for the other reason I listed.

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No, it's a heal (hence the term heal over time). Synastry is a buff, because it increases the healing power of said HoT while active. That's the difference.

The precedent they've set in this game already is that raid wide buffs from different Jobs can stack with each other, which makes sense with their philosophy (wanting all Jobs to feel useful within a party setting). Going "oh well they can just change it because they can" is weak, because I can just counter that with "they can have them stack too because they can do what they want".

An actual sound argument would be that since BRDs can cross class Mantra then they can already buff healing so it would be better to give them something more unique.