Card potencies (class specific)

Alright guys, so this may end up being a question for reddit, but gonna try here first. We obviously all know that for certain classes, certain cards are better. Such as Arrow being the 100% best card for Blm 100% of the time.

My question is this: (Assuming every player/class is completely optimal)
What is the overall dps increase percentage of each card, per class.

I've heard from my old servers top mch that Spear is best for them, bringing up Raging Strikes/Hawkseye/Wildfire/Reload/Rapid Fire etc. But not entirely sure how much of a dps gain that is.

Like, Balance is a 10% dps increase. Period.
But, again, bringing up Arrow and Blm, Arrow is more than a 10% dps increase if I'm not mistaken. So, do you guys know?

Can anyone help out?

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Originally Posted by Anyendryyl

We obviously all know that for certain classes, certain cards are better. Such as Arrow being the 100% best card for Blm 100% of the time.

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Don't arrow my BLM AoE please, it's annoying and counter-productive to make my Fire3 cast time well under 3 seconds.

Just add a thunder before Fire III and it's ok
Since in aoe mode you don't have enochian you can add thunder

On the opposite i love all kind of arrow IN my Blm *3*
Enhanced one are the best...
I mean... With ley line or/and fey wind you don't even see the cast bar 8D

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

Just add a thunder before Fire III and it's ok

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So do less dps because I have arrow up? I normally just wait half a second after that first transpose tick, doing the same dps I would do without arrow.

In any event, Arrow is not a dps gain in BLM AoE.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

In any event, Arrow is not a dps gain in BLM AoE.

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Oh hmm I didn't know that. I'm always seeing people recommend that BLM gets priority on arrows, but it it ain't helping their aoe rotation then I guess I'll start giving them to other players.

You Don't lose dps by adding à DoT
Plus under arrow casting the arrow will basicly make you as much time as waiting for the second tick
Plus having possible thundercloud proc give you more dps

And possibility to spread it even more

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

You Don't lose dps by adding à DoT
Plus under arrow casting the arrow will basicly make you as much time as waiting for the second tick
Plus having possible thundercloud proc give you more dps

And possibility to spread it even more

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Every TC proc you spread is a NOT F2 and delays your Flare. Which when facing mobs of 3 or more is a DPS loss.
It's also a straight up DPS loss (without procs) because while casting T1 it delays your casting of F2s and Flare.

The ONLY time it would be a DPS increase is if you're doing your single target rotation on a group. Which is still worse than your AoE rotation.

Also, just to ensure people are aware, as I see people doing it wrong basically every time I'm in a dungeon, the AoE rotation is:
F3-F2-F2-F2-Flare
Transpose
B3-F3-F2-F2-Flare
Transpose
B3-F3-F2-F2-Flare

Add in Raging Strikes, Convert, Swiftcast, Flare as aggro allows.

Also in reference to the OP. Please don't give me an Arrow or Ewer as a BLM, it messes with my MP ticks and rotation. Especially if I'm under Ley Lines. It can make me literally miss a mana tick going into the next AF phase an F4+ short of MP even if I cast a T1.
Give it to someone else. I'll take a Balance card, but

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

You Don't lose dps by adding à DoT

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It will if that DoT extends the time for your rotation.

Optimal AoE (15 seconds ~170 Potency/sec with 3 mobs) - Transpose > Fire 3 > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Flare > Repeat
Add in Thunder (18 seconds ~157 Potency/sec with 3 mobs) - Transpose > Thunder > Fire 3 > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Flare > Repeat

It won't cast quick enough to not extend your rotation by 3 seconds. It won't take up enough time for you to get a 3rd tick of MP under UI (another Fire II).

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

It will if that DoT extends the time for your rotation.

Optimal AoE (15 seconds) - Transpose > Fire 3 > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Repeat
Add in Thunder (18 seconds) - Transpose > Thunder > Fire 3 > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Repeat

It won't cast quick enough to not extend your rotation by 3 seconds. It won't take up enough time for you to get a 3rd tick of MP under UI (another Fire II). Someone else can figure out the potency change, but I can tell you it is a substantial drop.

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You forgot Flare...

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

You forgot Flare...

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Fixed it, and added in potency numbers, it's about an 8% drop in dps with only 3 mobs, larger with more mobs. That's before throwing in the thunderclouds, which won't make up the difference.

Arrow is not a DPS loss in any cirscunstance for a BLM, AoE or ST. Aimply put, Arrow means more fire IIs and more flares.

If you are annoyed that you wont get a second mana tick if you start casting fire III immediatly after flare, then just wait half a second before casting it. The timing is not that hard.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Arrow is not a DPS loss in any cirscunstance for a BLM, AoE or ST. Aimply put, Arrow means more fire IIs and more flares.

If you are annoyed that you wont get a second mana tick if you start casting fire III immediatly after flare, then just wait half a second before casting it. The timing is not that hard.

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I never said arrow was a dps loss, I said casting thunder because of arrow was a dps loss. It is not a dps gain because AoE rotation revolves around the 3 second server-side mp tick. It does not give you more Fire 2s or Flares, it's dps neutral. In an AoE situation, that arrow is much more useful on the tank keeping hate off me, or a MNK/DRG that knows how to AoE.

So you suggest that the AST annoys me for no gain instead of putting the card to actual use.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I never said arrow was a dps loss, I said casting thunder because of arrow was a dps loss. It is not a dps gain because AoE rotation revolves around the 3 second server-side mp tick. It does not give you more Fire 2s or Flares, it's dps neutral. In an AoE situation, that arrow is much more useful on the tank keeping hate off me, or a MNK/DRG that knows how to AoE.

So you suggest that the AST annoys me for no gain instead of putting the card to actual use.

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While that's true, that's not all there is for BLM AoE. On 3 targets you can safely use a sharp cast thunder and the extra SS would help you weave those TC procs. Not to mention the overall versatility of having faster cast times if you have to move or dodge an AoE. In the end of the day, if you dont like it you can always click it off. :)

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

While that's true, that's not all there is for BLM AoE. On 3 targets you can safely use a sharp cast thunder and the extra SS would help you weave those TC procs. Not to mention the overall versatility of having faster cast times if you have to move or dodge and AoE. In the end of the day, if you dont like it you can always click it off. :)

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If someone clicks off my buffs I'll probably just leave the run.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

Oh hmm I didn't know that. I'm always seeing people recommend that BLM gets priority on arrows, but it it ain't helping their aoe rotation then I guess I'll start giving them to other players.

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He's blatantly wrong. The bulk of BLM damage in mob pulls is in the Fire 2> Fire 2> Flare portion of the rotation, as should be obvious. Making that bit go faster, means more DPS. As for making Fire 3's cast time under 3 seconds, any competent BLM is going to be putting Leylines on cooldown as often as possible without compromising it for the boss encounter. It's 90s cooldown means it should be up for every other pull or so. With Leylines, they have to hold off on that next Fire 3 for a bit, anyways.

I would say that Arrow for BRD is almost as potent as Balance.

While you wont get the damage to any of your oGCD skills, what you will get is a change in the # of Heavy Shots you can cast in a single target rotation. This will equate to a higher chance of getting Straighter Shot procs.

Getting extra SS procs allows you to replace a Straighter Shot with a Heavy Shot (+10 Potency) and a Heavy Shot with a SS Proc 150 Potency VS 140 Potency * Crit Multiplier.
So not only does get you extra damage, but it also greatly increases your average Potency/s for the duration.

AOE is pretty nice too for quickly multi-dotting + AOE Spam.

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Originally Posted by AI_wass

He's blatantly wrong. The bulk of BLM damage in mob pulls is in the Fire 2> Fire 2> Flare portion of the rotation, as should be obvious. Making that bit go faster, means more DPS.

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Ideal AoE Flare rotation is 15 seconds and takes around 900 spell speed. To drop that to a 12 second rotation, you need a GCD around 1.6 seconds and perfect timing.

For that same reason, Ley Lines in an AoE is not what a competent BLM does.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Fixed it, and added in potency numbers, it's about an 8% drop in dps with only 3 mobs, larger with more mobs. That's before throwing in the thunderclouds, which won't make up the difference.

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The more spell speed the better as a black mage, arrow makes you cast faster with a lower GCD. There is nothing negative about it, telling someone to not arrow a black mage is silly.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I would say that Arrow for BRD is almost as potent as Balance.

While you wont get the damage to any of your oGCD skills, what you will get is a change in the # of Heavy Shots you can cast in a single target rotation. This will equate to a higher chance of getting Straighter Shot procs.

Getting extra SS procs allows you to replace a Straighter Shot with a Heavy Shot (+10 Potency) and a Heavy Shot with a SS Proc 150 Potency VS 140 Potency * Crit Multiplier.
So not only does get you extra damage, but it also greatly increases your average Potency/s for the duration.

AOE is pretty nice too for quickly multi-dotting + AOE Spam.

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In pure AoE where you won't run out of TP Arrow and Balance are basically identical bonuses. In any other situation, Balance is noticeably superior, especially if you have oGCDs at the ready.
Getting in an extra Heavy Shot, a filler of 150 potency—with a 20% chance at triggering 60(1-<Crit Rate>) relative potency bonus damage on a following filler GCD—per 18 seconds / rotational string, does not make up for the lost 10% damage of that whole string. That'd award you around 157 potency at a 30% crit chance (40% with SS). Compare that to the minimum 162 weaponskill bonus potency of Balance:

44 + 41 + 15 + 15 + 15 + 15 + 14 ;

starting the string with IJ increases that by a further 9, and each Straighter Shot produces a relative 6*(1-<crit rate>) more bonus potency.

plus 10% of all oGCD and AA damage dealt).

Arrow's anywhere from 93% to a mere ~50% of the bonus of Balance when not locked to filler damage (as in pure AoE — Quick Nock/Wide Volley spam).

Yeaaaaaah, I've been told about 9102801924 times to never hit a BLM with Arrow OR Ewer. They say it messes up their rotations somehow, so I don't. I hit them with Balance. Arrow almost always goes to a nin/dragoon/mch from me. BLM gets balance, Myself or alternate healer gets Ewer if I didn't RR it. Spire is pretty much always RR'd, unless for some odd reason someone is significantly down on the TP, but that's pretty rare. Spear is my "let's hope shuffle is up" but I use it if I draw it right before a fight, otherwise it's kind of iffy at best. RR if no RR is up.

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Originally Posted by AI_wass

He's blatantly wrong. The bulk of BLM damage in mob pulls is in the Fire 2> Fire 2> Flare portion of the rotation, as should be obvious. Making that bit go faster, means more DPS. As for making Fire 3's cast time under 3 seconds, any competent BLM is going to be putting Leylines on cooldown as often as possible without compromising it for the boss encounter. It's 90s cooldown means it should be up for every other pull or so. With Leylines, they have to hold off on that next Fire 3 for a bit, anyways.

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No. No. No. No. No.
Making the fast part of the rotation faster doesn't make overall DPS go up when you still have to wait the same amount for the MP tick.
EG-1000 potency over 15s is 1000 potency. 1000 potency over 14 seconds with a 1 second wait is still 1000 potency per 15 seconds. (please don't worry about the numbers, I know they're not accurate, the principle is the same because math)

You don't ever use Ley Lines in AoE. You still can't get enough SS to knock down the server tick wait. Using LeyLines just makes you look busy.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

While that's true, that's not all there is for BLM AoE. On 3 targets you can safely use a sharp cast thunder and the extra SS would help you weave those TC procs. Not to mention the overall versatility of having faster cast times if you have to move or dodge an AoE. In the end of the day, if you dont like it you can always click it off. :)

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Why would you ever us TC on the AoE rotation?
That costs you TWO F2 times (one for the T1 and one for the T3 proc because GCD is still GCD).
T1+TC proc=980 potency
2xF2=1080 potency on 3 mobs.

PLUS (most importantly) it slows down your Flares. Which is the entire purpose of the AoE rotation.
That is not a net gain on any day of the week. Furthermore, clicking off a buff is a pain in the butt on the PS4.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

Why would you ever us TC on the AoE rotation?
That costs you TWO F2 times (one for the T1 and one for the T3 proc because GCD is still GCD).
T1+TC proc=980 potency
2xF2=1080 potency on 3 mobs.

PLUS (most importantly) it slows down your Flares. Which is the entire purpose of the AoE rotation.
That is not a net gain on any day of the week. Furthermore, clicking off a buff is a pain in the butt on the PS4.

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A GCD is a GCD?
While two fire IIs take 6 seconds to cast (not taking into acount SS), a Thunder plus a TC proc only takes 5. And even then you're ignoring the possibility of another TC proc'ing for another 745.5 potency which is highly likely to happen with 2 mobs having Thunder (this is particularly fun to do when a known tank is still moving forward pulling mobs so you can keep moving with him and casting TC procs instead of scathes). I find 100 potency on an AoE pull is worth sacrificing for a chance of having a higher DPS, but that's just me.

Also you're not really losing any flares. You should always end the AoE pull with a Flare regardless of your MP so you'd only realistically lose a Flare if you delayed the rotation for around 10 or more seconds. And Fire II is only really a filler used until transpose comes off CD. You can easily swap a Fire II for a TC proc and still gain DPS (on 3 targets) while not delaying your rotation.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

A GCD is a GCD?
While two fire IIs take 6 seconds to cast (not taking into acount SS), a Thunder plus a TC proc only takes 5.

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That's the heart of the issue, a GCD isn't the main factor in BLM Flare AoE. Your 2 GCD casts of 2.2 seconds each doesn't add 4.4 seconds to the rotation, it adds 6.0 seconds. Your rotation doesn't change from 15 seconds to 19.4 seconds, it becomes 21 seconds due to server side 3 second MP ticks.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

(this is particularly fun to do when a known tank is still moving forward pulling mobs so you can keep moving with him and casting TC procs instead of scathes)

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That is part of the pull, not part of the AoE rotation. Thundercloud works during the pull, at the start of a rotation to weave in RS/QS, and sometimes after that first Flare > Transpose while waiting on the first MP tick. After that first Transpose > Fire 3 it's a dps loss.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

A GCD is a GCD?
While two fire IIs take 6 seconds to cast (not taking into acount SS), a Thunder plus a TC proc only takes 5. And even then you're ignoring the possibility of another TC proc'ing for another 745.5 potency which is highly likely to happen with 2 mobs having Thunder (this is particularly fun to do when a known tank is still moving forward pulling mobs so you can keep moving with him and casting TC procs instead of scathes). I find 100 potency on an AoE pull is worth sacrificing for a chance of having a higher DPS, but that's just me.

Also you're not really losing any flares. You should always end the AoE pull with a Flare regardless of your MP so you'd only realistically lose a Flare if you delayed the rotation for around 10 or more seconds. And Fire II is only really a filler used until transpose comes off CD. You can easily swap a Fire II for a TC proc and still gain DPS (on 3 targets) while not delaying your rotation.

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Okay, I have now calculated it out. And there are three caveats to the data:
It assumes the PIE buff, and you get 4 (including sharp cast, which is around one more than statistically likely) TC procs over 63 seconds (without the PIE buff you literally cannot still cast the optimal F2s in the opener as you only have 85 MP left over with it) and it assumes you don't swiftcast->convert->flare.
It gets you 11402 potency over 63 seconds vs 10876 over 63 seconds. (these are some tough bloody mobs! but I needed rotations that balanced out).
These numbers were corrected for server side MP ticks. (EG-all portions where there was zero MP the time was rounded to the NEXT 3 second multiple).

Technically you appear correct, in that it's slightly better (potency wise) to use TC with 3 and only 3 mobs. IF you get 4 TC procs.
With that rotation though, you do lose out on 1 F3, 2 F2s and one Flare. So while strictly a minor potency increase, you lose out on 7 crit chances by having five extra single target spells. So I'm not sure the potency difference will actually make a DPS difference. Further, adding single target spells like TC will only serve to make it more likely one mob dies early even with proper target rotation which would again decrease potency.

To me it seems just like a way to make it seem busier with no real net benefit and rather large potential downside (losing an AoE target early) since there's no real group of 3 mobs that will take 63 seconds to kill.

.....so, in other words - I'm not going to hit a BLM with arrow, again. o_o
I guess AoE-ing arrows with a BLM in the party would be the only thing >_>

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Originally Posted by Saseal

.....so, in other words - I'm not going to hit a BLM with arrow, again. o_o
I guess AoE-ing arrows with a BLM in the party would be the only thing >_>

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Single target rotation (EG- on a boss) give me an arrow as a BLM, otherwise thank you for not ^^

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

Single target rotation (EG- on a boss) give me an arrow as a BLM, otherwise thank you for not ^^

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Aha, thanks for the clarification! :D
(I...... got lost in all the math and abbrevs and skills.... and having no experience playing BLM... only Thaum for SC.... x.x;; )

Single target pew-pewing only... got it! +_+

I ... don't get how arrow on blm's aoe rotation is not a dps increase?...

Your entire damage is sped up except for the umbral ice phase where you are dependent on server ticks. Your whole fire phase is sped up. I do not see how this is not a dps increase. It's not as good as a balance would be, but it's still a blatant dps increase.

I hate to say it, but if your reasoning for it being a dps loss is that it messes with your fire 3 back into astral fire and you only get 1 mp tick, git gud and learn to wait that extra fraction of a second.

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Originally Posted by Aryn_Lastrov

I ... don't get how arrow on blm's aoe rotation is not a dps increase?...

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To do Fire III > Fire II > Fire II > Flare, you have to get two MP ticks during the Fire III. Arrow guarantees that you will only get one tick, and therefore not have enough for two Fire IIs. Any haste on the AoE rotation forces Fire III > Fire II > Flare or (wait or waste an action)> Fire III > Fire II > Fire II > Flare.

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Originally Posted by Aryn_Lastrov

if your reasoning for it being a dps loss is that it messes with your fire 3 back into astral fire and you only get 1 mp tick

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Re-read, that is not the reason it's not a dps increase, that's the annoyance that goes with the lack of dps increase.

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Originally Posted by Aryn_Lastrov

Your whole fire phase is sped up

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And that time you gain casting faster Fire spells goes into waiting for the first MP tick after Flare > Transpose. The rotation is 15 seconds, with or without arrow.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

The rotation is 15 seconds, with or without arrow.

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I do not comprehend this one bit at all. I don't have the cast times on me, but let's say fire 3 is 3.5secs, fire 2 3 secs, Flare is 4secs and transpose 0.5. For argument's sake I'll just reduce reduce the cast times by half a second while under arrow to demonstrate the dps increase.

Fire 3 > Fire 2 x2 > Flare > Transpose is 3.5 + 2(3) + 4 + 0.5 = 14secs

Let's pretend your rotation does 10,000 damage. This means your dps is 10,000/14 =714

Now with arrow cast times, it becomes 3.5 (as fire 3 in ice does not change as you need 2 ticks) + 2(2.5) +3.5 + 0.5 = 12.5 secs

10,000/12.5 = 800dps

Obviously, you need to wait for you first mp tick before casting fire 3. The time that you save in astral fire may result in you getting an early mp tick. Other times you may get the same mp tick and the dps gain isn't as big, but you're dps will become higher quicker, then settle back down to the same (worst case scenario with a single aoe rotation). With a 30secs let lines or arrow, you are bound to get the early mp tick and see a dps increase

Edit: I understand what you're saying now, that the time you save in fire is spent waiting on that mp tick. But with ley lines + arrow and/or a swiftcasted Flare I would assume that you'd get an early mp tick. Its also likely that the mobs will die around your Flare, and since arrow has sped up that part of the rotation, your Flare has come out early and your dps will be higher because of it. It's not a great card for aoe, but it is almost always a dps increase

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Arrow guarantees that you will only get one tick

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No it doesn't.

Just wait a fraction of a second before casting fire 3. It is the only part of the rotation which does not benefit from arrow.

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Originally Posted by Aryn_Lastrov

Edit: I understand what you're saying now, that the time you save in fire is spent waiting on that mp tick. But with ley lines + arrow and/or a swiftcasted Flare I would assume that you'd get an early mp tick. Its also likely that the mobs will die around your Flare, and since arrow has sped up that part of the rotation, your Flare has come out early and your dps will be higher because of it. It's not a great card for aoe, but it is almost always a dps increase

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You still kinda misunderstand.
Not only are you waiting on the MP tick, you can't just cast right away as soon as you get the tick to cast F3 as the cast time is now 2.77 seconds with arrow.

Also, your 10% increase is 1.72 seconds based on my SS on a GCD of 2.2 seconds.
Which makes the rotation go from 14.52 seconds to 12.8 seconds. Making the rotation take exactly the same amount of time (15 seconds).
But potentially screwing up your rotation cast causing you to go into AF early. You don't want to build bad habits by waiting to cast things.

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Originally Posted by Aryn_Lastrov

No it doesn't.

Just wait a fraction of a second before casting fire 3. It is the only part of the rotation which does not benefit from arrow.

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Do you really want to screw up a rotation because you waited 0.22 seconds instead of 0.23 seconds? Or if you delay yourself by 0.5 seconds and the buff falls off you miss an MP tick because your rotation now takes you in-between MP ticks causing you to go into AF 3 seconds later?

While it may in theory work sometimes on paper, in reality you're just inviting an error for what is most likely a DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by Aryn_Lastrov

Edit: I understand what you're saying now, that the time you save in fire is spent waiting on that mp tick. But with ley lines + arrow and/or a swiftcasted Flare I would assume that you'd get an early mp tick.

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That early tick will only happen after the first transpose, if at all. That might put your casting 3 seconds ahead of where you would otherwise be for the rest of the encounter, or it leaves it in the exact same spot. Swiftcast will be used any time it's off CD for Flare, and when it's used it makes arrow less likely to give that fast MP tick (Swiftcast > Flare > Transpose takes the same time to do with or without arrow, Hardcast Flare > Transpose does not).

If the pack of mobs is melting quickly, it means the BLM isn't the only one cranking out high AoE damage. At the extreme of this, you won't get back into your AoE rotation after your first transpose. So the extra damage you end up doing is a Freeze, Blizzard II, or Scathe cast. Arrow would be better used on the DRG/MNK/MCH/BRD/WAR/DRK/just about anyone but SMN, Royal Roaded, or saved until the boss fight.

If the pack of mobs is going slowly, it's because your BLM is doing low dps, or is doing 75% of your damage. If the BLM sucks, give it to the other dps. If the other dps and tank suck, give it to the tank, because that BLM will be ripping hate and 1 spell interruption lowers dps by more than that 3 seconds that Arrow might have given.