Selling clears maybe within the rules of the game - but is it within the spirit?

A discussion took place on my server yesterday re selling clears - started by someone offering them in general chat.

After some protests in response, several people assured that this had been ok'd by SE, and I can understand from a business perspective why they'd accept it.
- someone who's paid for the clears is of course likely to stick with the game after forking out their cash.

Now this appears to satisfy both parties, those who are selling and those who are buying - but to me it still feels a bit strange and can possibly throw a shadow over achievements.

After watching the discussion unfold on chat I was left with this: The next time I see someone with a nice mount, title, gear etc
- I'd wonder did they play well for this or just buy it through clear selling groups?

Each to his own I guess - thoughts?

I mean. It wouldn't be against the rules.

But I mean what's the point? There's no fun in buying a clear especially nowadays when none of the primals are connected (no need to beat one EX to get access to another like in ARR) and why buy a clear for Savage? To say you did it? Talk about weak.

There's very much a lucrative market for this on my server too. I do not take part in it, but I know people that make serious bank off it.

Now I can honestly understand a frustrated person who's quite capable of clearing an encounter perfectly but just cannot get 7 other competent people to do it with, or does not want to spend the hours combing through PF parties for the clear. They fork over the gil just so he/she can finally have access to farming parties.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

The next time I see someone with a nice mount, title, gear etc
- I'd wonder did they play well for this or just buy it through clear selling groups?

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Proof is in the pudding I guess. The quality of random "farm" parties for an encounter is often very poor and it does make you wonder. I give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes as we are human and make mistakes and don't rage at someone immediately after one wipe. But sometimes......

It's not against the rules but it is frowned upon by some people.

Such reasons given like the people who get carried in such a way will probably not be able to manage later on if they could not manage prior to buying the clear. It undermines the whole "keep the newbies out of PF farm parties" brigade, the vote kick the non-achievement/first timers types who think just because someone has the clear it means they will be more capable of clearing than the first timer who might have spent hours of watching videos and reading guides on that raid, dungeon or trial...while someone else who bought his/her clear might have merely paid, entered and potentially went afk till the fight was over giving them the achievement.

There is also the argument about undermining the accomplishments of the people who actually worked hard for it when others could just pay for it. Personally I do not care for the type of people who hold being a first timer against someone so do not mind the fact their agenda of exclusion is undermined by clear buyers. I think everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves even in farm parties which even if have a clear under their belt it does not always make them more competent and focused. I never buy clears myself as I do not wish to skip such content even if it remains undone for months I will eventually get around to clearing it without buying a clear.

In regards to the undermining of the accomplishments aspect, it's just their ego's impacted and there are far too many over-inflated egos in this game already such as raid elitists. When I see someone with like a top tier or hard to get item that could be obtained through a raid or ex trial, I do not think "did they buy it or earn it"...in fact I do not care much about whether they earned it or bought it and I just think "okay where is it from" and "do I want to earn it myself" by doing it normally (not paying for clears or being carried) essentially I will not pay gil to clear any dungeon, raid or trial personally.

imo the question should be "is buying clears in the spirit of the game?"

I wasn't a big mmo player before this game so I was surprised that players selling themselves is a thing. Somehow I just imagined an idealised community where people gave up their time to help others without asking for payment. I'm not a fan of it, but it doesn't break the game if that's how people like to play it. The only thing that upsets me is people breaking the game with third-party tools to get an unfair advantage of any kind.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

A discussion took place on my server yesterday re selling clears - started by someone offering them in general chat.
[snip]
After watching the discussion unfold on chat I was left with this: The next time I see someone with a nice mount, title, gear etc
- I'd wonder did they play well for this or just buy it through clear selling groups?

Each to his own I guess - thoughts?

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I'd imagine theirs more people being carried by their friends/FC than buying clears. Other than gil changing hands how is that any different? Mercenaries for hire is also a common theme in FF games so in that respect i'd say it was perfectly within the spirit of the game.

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There is also the argument about undermining the accomplishments of the people who actually worked hard for it when others could just pay for it. Personally I do not care for the type of people who hold being a first timer against someone so do not mind the fact their agenda of exclusion is undermined by clear buyers

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Having cleared the fight is the only metric we have for judging whether someone is good enough before you see them in action. If you had you're way farm partys wouldn't exist as no ones going to join a farm group that has multiple first timers in it.

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I wasn't a big mmo player before this game so I was surprised that players selling themselves is a thing. Somehow I just imagined an idealised community where people gave up their time to help others without asking for payment. I'm not a fan of it, but it doesn't break the game if that's how people like to play it. The only thing that upsets me is people breaking the game with third-party tools to get an unfair advantage of any kind.

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People who sell runs also help their friends/fc mates for free as well, it isn't an either/or situation. A community is something you have to work to be a part off, you shouldn't expect free hand outs.

I find the most common things ppl buy carries for are Ex Primals and usually turn 1 or 2 of Alex Savage. You stick out like a sore thumb and are asking to be blacklisted if you claim to clear the 2nd last or final turns of Savage because most of the legitimately cleared people know each other. If clients just want a one off clear, most of the raiding community doesn't really care (aside from the internal chuckles) but if these same people then try to join statics and such, it matters a great deal.

yeah we need those clear sales money to buy
oh wait
almost nothing

if there was actually stuff worth buying it might be a different story

selling clears is one of the bigger things that keep the RMT alive. where do you think got most of the people who buy clears their money? sure, there are some rich crafters, but most people will have bought the gil, like they bought the kill...

and because the kill sellers are feeding the RMT i am against the whole kill selling story.

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Originally Posted by Tint

selling clears is one of the bigger things that keep the RMT alive. where do you think got most of the people who buy clears their money? sure, there are some rich crafters, but most people will have bought the gil, like they bought the kill...

and because the kill sellers are feeding the RMT i am against the whole kill selling story.

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What about expensive crafted items/minions? Should we stop people trading gil or sending messages to each other? Don't they feed RMT as well?

People sell, and people buy. It's not limited to just crafted items or craft materials. Sure it "degrades" the achievements from those who have won such without paying for it, but that's life. If someone questions your HW Primal mount and how you've gotten it, it's their problem, not yours. :|

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

imo the question should be "is buying clears in the spirit of the game?"

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No it is not. I'm in the camp that is against selling clears of any kind so either gitgud at content or just don't complete it. Make some friends and work though content together or get your fc to work together and clear it. The point is ppl who bought clears dilute the duty finder/pf pugs (which is already pretty bad in NA) and if ppl aren't motivated to play the game enough to work for a clear instead of buying then why would they continue to stay subbed?

It all goes back to the adage of teaching a man to fish rather than giving him one. Ppl gotta make money I get it but I still cringe when I see sell parties and it's even worse when its ppl I know. I also feel this may be a mental shift in causal gamer mentality where they feel that they need to buy clears in order to be accepted into the playerbase. Kind of like poor kids buying nice clothes to fit in. Though this is just an observation and hypothesis.

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Originally Posted by Kitano123

What about expensive crafted items/minions? Should we stop people trading gil or sending messages to each other? Don't they feed RMT as well?

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If the argument was valid: Yes, they would. Anything that requires more money than the average DoW/DoM can afford would, because it all creates a 'need' for gil.

Personally, I'm fairly indifferent about clear buying because I never considered a clear something special or worth buying. As such, I don't find it worth "protecting" either. More power to the people who can clear with a dead weight I guess.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

No it is not. I'm in the camp that is against selling clears of any kind so either gitgud at content or just don't complete it. Make some friends and work though content together or get your fc to work together and clear it. The point is ppl who bought clears dilute the duty finder/pf pugs (which is already pretty bad in NA) and if ppl aren't motivated to play the game enough to work for a clear instead of buying then why would they continue to stay subbed?
[snip]

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Again i'll ask: Whats the difference between paying someone to carry you which you have a problem with and being carried by your friends/FC which you dont have a problem with?

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Originally Posted by Kitano123

Again i'll ask: Whats the difference between paying someone to carry you which you have a problem with and being carried by your friends/FC which you dont have a problem with?

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http://cdn4.dualshockers.com/wp-cont...5-05_28_40.jpg


People will still buy money from RMTs to buy Savage rushes, crafting gear, minions, Housing etc...
Selling clears might increase RMT activity, but these people will buy gil for everything else, too.

I despise clearsellers. and I think it is against the spirit of the game to sell clears. but they are also a product of the endgame environment, from the design of boss fights to the community reaction to them.

usually when they are current, fights of the ex trial variety tend to be very strict, with OHKO attacks, where a downed player will usually be enough to make the attempt hopeless, and leave players either running for the pits or waiting for the mob to just get it over with(must be a hell of a sight from a npc perspective!).

players that rush for a clear often do so because the state of clearing causes a brain drain among the community, people that clear only want to party with people that clear, because people that have not cleared will result in no rewards. and the fights are mechanically complex enough that explanations in game are difficult, nigh impossible if you don't have macros.

So players do not try, they tell others to youtube it, and bang their heads against it until they either clear and join the farm parties(where it is assumed there are more quality players all the time) ask their fc or static for help, or stop trying to.

If a person does not have these connections or lack the player skill, they are often left behind, and their efforts frowned upon as getting "carried". Think about it, the very notion of helping the unskilled clear content has a derogatory name in this genre. They aren't attractive to the parties because they cannot clear, and they will be constantly paired up with those that cannot clear. They are told to stop playing, gitgud, watch it on youtube, or join a static(which again, have their own criteria, revolving around clears, whether the static is willing or even capable of improving the player is toss up).

People see this impasse, and make a buck on it.

for a bunch and a half of gil you too can get 7 people to be the bros that can clear content and help out. you can buy the end of the adventure, you can pay for the win.

And yes people may frown upon it, they may speak ill of your clear or that you didn't earn it.

But they weren't there when you needed it, so why should they matter now? Next patch and their vaunted prizes will be a thing of the past, and they wouldn't have helped you then either.

Its a bad situation, but there's little if any incentive to improve on it. people are trying to keep their own progression alive as it is, to not get into that situation.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I despise clearsellers. and I think it is against the spirit of the game to sell clears. but they are also a product of the endgame environment, from the design of boss fights to the community reaction to them.

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According to the forum Guds 90 percent of the players get carried through everything without paying anyway. Maybe if they pay for it, it might be better accepted? They should have a pay for a carry in DF, that would be awesome. A "Pay as you Go" tab/option. /smiley-wink :)

And seriously I never understood the mentality behind paying for a clear. You've accomplished nothing really other than letting others do the work for you. Reminds me of people who run around with The Final Witness tag who did all of coil unsynced and in many cases as a carry for a tome bonus for relic. There was quite a lot of that on my server when relic first came out.

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Originally Posted by Kitano123

Again i'll ask: Whats the difference between paying someone to carry you which you have a problem with and being carried by your friends/FC which you dont have a problem with?

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Your question is easely answered : none

the point of Marxam though is totally another.

As for OP question, is it in the right spirit ? that dépends whom you ask. Those that sell those runs will tell you yes..afterall they make themselves available to take others through content for a price, is up to people to accept this or not, so those who accept think is totally ok and those who dont think is not ok but in the end, those that accepted are wel ahead those that didnt accept so really spirit, morality and the like are words that will be adapted depending who pronounces them

Nice try Layla, but for the most part a dedicated carry run that was paid for will see said purchaser dead on the floor so they can't mess the fight up for the 'carriers'

having friends carry you in content is very very different, It might not be a one shot, they won't be left for dead on a floor, unless the healers had enough, they will have an opportunity to learn somewhat, certainly more than any paid for service will offer.

Personally, I loathe the fact that people sell runs, I know someone in my FC who paid for an A4S clear, and got the mount, they never raid, still don't. kinda sucks that gil can buy what hardwork and dedication cannot :/

Of course it goes against the game spirit... In any game, and I include pay for win used for developers. But, problem is very complex. It is not only lazy players, could be simply a guy unable to find a party, so they pay this "mercenaries".

But is not faul of those who sell the clear. The fault is for those who buy them and also those who OBLIGUE people to have clears to join PF. No one will sell a run if no one is interested. One of the causes (but nto the main) peope buying clears is the constalty "No bonus or kick" in party finders. Which obligues people to have at least 1 clear to be able to join. And that player could be simply a good player with bad luck on parties and pay for the need to have the clear to join farm parties. The problem is very complex, all of them are not only lazy people wanting a carry, there are a lot of reasons. If we were less exigent with PF and less dickheads demanding perfection on all players, probably nothing like this happend. We need a community more similar to japanese one, which care much more about party than themselves. But a very hard thing on western players, becuase our culture is "fuck the ohters".

This will end badly if it continues. No need to worry about whether or not a person earned it you will immediately be able to tell simply because power leveled nubs do not get good they simply get strung along, some will even be in here crying nerf because they never learned anything. Why will this end badly? Because before you know it there will be a lot of players that don't know up from down in end game content, people will want more players in fc & they'll use it to their advantage, will diminish the community because those that are willing to learn not pay their way will be treated unfairly (I have 3 experiences that describes this),egos will go up: I can clear this, can you? Take this as you want but if SE doesn't stop this & I end up being belittled by an egotistical buffoon I will leave this game, as I'm sure others will.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

But is not faul of those who sell the clear. The fault is for those who buy them and also those who OBLIGUE people to have clears to join PF. No one will sell a run if no one is interested.

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What world do you live in? Yes it is the sellers fault to. They made the nub. Although no one is referencing what I'm about to say this is an example: so if your an accomplice to murder you don't get in trouble for it? If you buy alcohol for a minor you don't get in trouble? In actuality they both are at fault!

I'll probably get bashed for this but it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I absolutely hate when people buy or sell clears. I've always had the mindset of only wanting to complete things by my own hand. I don't even buy things in other games such as extra coins because I see it as 'cheating.'

I just don't see the point in playing a game if you're going to get someone else to do it for you. It's not like they're playing the game for other aspects like role play or they wouldn't be paying someone to complete a fight for them. Them wanting to see the story line is also a poor excuse. Go on YouTube. For things such as achievements and minions and quest rewards and glamours? You don't deserve them if you paid someone to carry you.

Again, just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by coco1851

This will end badly if it continues. No need to worry about whether or not a person earned it you will immediately be able to tell simply because power leveled nubs do not get good they simply get strung along, some will even be in here crying nerf because they never learned anything. Why will this end badly? Because before you know it there will be a lot of players that don't know up from down in end game content, people will want more players in fc & they'll use it to their advantage, will diminish the community because those that are willing to learn not pay their way will be treated unfairly (I have 3 experiences that describes this),egos will go up: I can clear this, can you? Take this as you want but if SE doesn't stop this & I end up being belittled by an egotistical buffoon I will leave this game, as I'm sure others will.

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runs of raid or primal content has been sold since the beginning of 2.x. SE doesn't care and nor should other players. If someone likes to buy a clear of something, I am not the one stopping that person. Gives me and my friends the possibility to buy 10 houses before another patch hits, and makes that content irrelevant. Enjoy other games since apparently you want to leave since SE is not doing what you want :D

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

But is not faul of those who sell the clear.

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Of course it's their fault. Supply and demand.

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Originally Posted by coco1851

What world do you live in? Yes it is the sellers fault to. They made the nub. Although no one is referencing what I'm about to say this is an example: so if your an accomplice to murder you don't get in trouble for it? If you buy alcohol for a minor you don't get in trouble? In actuality they both are at fault!

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actually if I Buy alcohol for a minor I would get in trouble.....yes indeed jailed for it even ....BUT nobody forces me to buy it, so no buyers no suppliers..so let me enlight you a bit with my next post.

you clearly miss a point or dont know it. Market works this way...supply and demand. As long as there is demand there is supply. The cost of the supply dépends on how many demands and how many supplier there are (this to make it simple).

Market law makes it so that as long as there is demand, supply will be there. Remove the demand and the supply will go.

this is just like our RL lives works.

In this case, some players found a niche (and yes is called that way) where they identified a need and they simply put out a supply to cover that need. Many players never would do any content or some of the content if it wasnt for those sellers, because whether you want to believe it or not, some players without those sellers would never achieve anything as there arent anybody doing any content especially old content. Even new, most dont want to take newby along. When you wait 8h for a EX primal, you go to bed and get up 8h later and you are still queueing you can understand why some would pay for experimenting at least just once something that shouldnt require the use of run sellers but unfortunately there is this demand.

If you want to eradicate this, start by doing something to help out those that require help, queue regularly in DF for ex primals to eventually pair up with those that want to try and couldnt, run stuff sync rather then unsync and maybe JUST maybe you might remove the supply since the demand would be inexisting

But whether you want it or not, the fault is the origin on the demand side not the supply. Try to think a bit before you shout out stuff that you obviously miss the basic grasp.

On a side note, you can bypass the 1000 words limit by editing your post

In spirit of what? The game? Or games in general?

This entire game is basically a carry. Too hard? Don't worry it'll be nerfed in a week. Don't want to work for something? Or deal with competition? Don't worry here's everything handed to you.

To me this game isn't in the spirit of games. =/

A friend of mine managed to hit his gil cap on 3~ different characters by selling clears, truth be told it is no more or less wrong than a craft based class selling their things, or someone desynthing items for demateria, or selling dungeon/treasure hunting loot, or selling items you farm from killing monsters. You are offering your skills for a fee just like all of those people do, it is something that everyone can do, it gives no unfair advantages as everyone can do it, and really all you are doing is extending the services of your character from Npc's to other players.

As long as you aren't being pushy about it and as long as you aren't mean or rip off people paying you it is perfectly fine to do. It would be more generous to simply help people out yeah, but again its a service that is in demand and there will always be a market for it.

I had to consider how i felt about it for awhile aswell, it was a bit on the morally ambiguous side to me as I had never really considered it before, but really in an economy that is full of people always trying to outsell everyone even if it means frequently crashing the market extending your combat skills from helping Npc's for a price to helping everyone for a price is also possibly the most stable source of high income in Eorzea.

Take for example this:
You are a leathercrafter selling demateria by crafting and desynthing an item over and over again, the market is stable until the moment you sell your item for the same price as everyone else, suddenly the return for your spent gil decreases, and keeps decreasing until what was once profitable is now worthless as more people lower their own prices. Soon your skill is rendered obsolete.

That is not something that happens when run selling, people need it and few enough do it that they do not need to compete with one another. I would admittedly do it if I wasn't afraid of dungeons, it does not mean that you still can't help someone for free if they need it.

I've never bought a clear and never will, but...

For a true MMORPG, I think it's totally within the spirit of the game.

To me, the sign of a healthy MMORPG is the existence of player-created/influenced systems within the game. Developers facilitate some of this with auction house systems and whatnot. However, other systems such as organized linkshells for specific content, players that sell runs, RP groups, etc., show that the game offers enough freedom that players can essentially "live" while playing.

All that said... any player who seriously thinks he needs to buy a clear really just needs a better FC.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

any player who seriously thinks he needs to buy a clear really just needs a better FC.

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nope that is not exactly how it works. I have been in FCs where we were well over hundred but they played among themselves with their own usual friends and ditn care of others, and this not only in one, two or three, but many. If you are not in the good papers of part of their close knit core group you are just a number to fill the ranks, small FCs too small not enough people.

So please no saying such advices that are totally dumb and silly

This actually happens? I've never seen this before.

In my server, you just recruit in party finder saying like "[Dungeon name] first time. Helpers and other first timers please join."
And they actually fill up really fast.

When I see them I either go for the bonus or just to help. It's also a good way to make connections and friends. But even when I try to join, they usually get filled up so fast that I receive the "This party is no long recruiting members" message.

Some are even like "First time to go to [dungeon name] as tank / healer. Looking for help".
In this situation, there isn't a bonus, but it still fills up fast.

I don't understand why people would sell / buy clears anyway? Why not just help for the bonus / make a connection with other people / just be helpful?

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Originally Posted by FinaSel

I don't understand why people would sell / buy clears anyway? Why not just help for the bonus / make a connection with other people / just be helpful?

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Some people are on servers that have a population of 50. No party finder will fill and some of the fights are not accessible via duty finder. Others don't have statics but still wanna experience that fight, some don't want to wait 3 months before getting a clear. There's so many reason why people would buy clears.

The reason you don't just go and help is, that when it comes lets say to raid content, you have a limited amount of chests. Nobody just gives away free loot and I've never seen a person buying a run that has 0 chests.
When it comes to primals, you mostly tell that person to die right at the start, so that person isn't gonna screw over the rest of the party with the mechanics. Then you just clear it and give the loot to that person.

Now if you just say you gonna help, you find yourself in that trial for 8 hrs and get frustrated since most of the buyers can't even after a couple of hours, figure out mechanics or come already unprepared, aka not meeting the dps check/gear/not knowing the fight etc.

Way faster to just collect the 3-20 mil and be done with it after a couple of minutes.

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nope that is not exactly how it works. I have been in FCs where we were well over hundred but they played among themselves with their own usual friends and ditn care of others, and this not only in one, two or three, but many.

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Like I said, you need to find a better FC, lol.

Took me a few tries, but I ended up with a great one. They're out there, so don't give up.

Remember that like-minded people tend to eventually come together. When you finally discover that FC that's full of helpful people, you'll know it.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

Like I said, you need to find a better FC, lol.

Took me a few tries, but I ended up with a great one. They're out there, so don't give up.

Remember that like-minded people tend to eventually come together. When you finally discover that FC that's full of helpful people, you'll know it.

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As i said i tried for years i think i speak by experience a large one and this includes server chsnge. Your advice is silly

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As i said i tried for years i think i speak by experience a large one and this includes server chsnge. Your advice is silly

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You're on Balmung, which is by far and away the most populated server in the game.

If you seriously think there's not a helpful FC you could join on ALL OF BALMUNG, then you're just not looking hard enough. I'd tell you the same thing even if you were on my server, which is much smaller and has many healthy FCs.

And no, the FC I'm in isn't a unique little snowflake. We have a large house and a huge active core, and our leader (who is EXTREMELY helpful and knowledgeable) occasionally clears out players who've been gone for several months. The result is a vibrant, lively FC that's never empty and always helpful, with a great mix of hardcore, midcore and casual players.

Really, it all starts with the leadership. Get to know the leader, and that will be a good sign of whether the FC will have an individualistic vs. village mentality.

Random thought, you might want to look at the FC rankings on Lodestone and start checking out those FCs one by one.

Reasons given against run selling:

(1) "Run buyers get to sneak into farm parties." While this is a problem directly created by run selling, it can be solved with a swift kick. This problem is also created by free carries by in-game friends, so if you oppose run selling for this reason you should also logically oppose people carrying in-game friends. Also take into account that not everyone who buys a carry does it to farm the place til their shoes wear off. It can be for an achievement (completionist) or a title (vanity). In those cases this particular reason to be against run selling doesn't apply.

(2) "People's accomplishments are undermined." This also applies to crafting; top crafters who have spend ridiculous amounts of time and effort and took risks to get where they are now have to watch non-crafters prance around with the latest glamours, furniture and bardings. Even if they refuse to sell their services there is no way to remain special because other crafters surely will sell theirs. If you are against the exchange of gil for something you can't yet obtain yourself, take a look at your glamour first. Could you, and did you, craft it yourself?

(3) "Paying for it is not the point of the game / is not in the spirit of the game." If it applies to PvE, then it must also apply to crafting. By logic you can't oppose one whilst not opposing the other. We can all craft and gather everything because of the armory system (yes even counting the crafter specialist system because you can swap souls) which means the only reasons we pay for others to craft us things are time, convenience (laziness), lack of skill and lack of interest. Those are the same reasons people buy PvE clears with gil. An active economy is a part of this game and everyone can take part in it with the same condition: no outside $ influence. Player made contracts are also within the spirit of the game, such as a fc crafter making battle gear for the raid team and getting a carry in exchange once the team has it on farm.

(4) "It promotes RMT." No more than crafted items, houses and relics do. In fact the most expensive things to buy in this game are large houses. Housing is severely limited and also unlock gameplay that isn't otherwise available. If you're going to blame players for promoting RMT with run sales, you must also blame SE for making housing expensive, making relic items expensive and making crafted items extremely convoluted and time-consuming to make (this makes them expensive). And if you're going to assume everyone who buys a clear is a gil buyer, well, you need to get a grip because gil rains on you from left and right if you actively play the game. That's how people get their relics, houses and glamours as well as raid clears.

(5) "It's greedy to ask money for something you could do for other people for free." Say that to crafter-gatherers, who surprisingly are not delighted to go gather a bunch of crap and craft some stranger all the nice glamours for free. If you have the skill, it's ok to get compensation for your time and effort. IMO this does not apply to ripping people off with housing though, because the customer may not have an equal chance to get the house as the seller did, unlike with crafting and raiding. There's a difference between working for someone and taking advantage of someone's misfortune.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

You're on Balmung, which is by far and away the most populated server in the game.

If you seriously think there's not a helpful FC you could join on ALL OF BALMUNG, then you're just not looking hard enough.

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I will repeat it for you... they have their static and you are just a number to fill the ranks.. unless you are part of the high rank. I reached a point where idont accept help anymore from anyone never know what they say behind your back calling you trash because you are not good enough just like they call others from other groups.. so yes i speak knowing very well the problem and why your comment is dumb as best. Some find good fcs but is not that often or else you would not need to give this silly advice dont think your situation is a norm is not. For 100 that find a good fc 200 dont population has nothig to do with people that form that population. Your comment is silly and solves absolutely nothing. We will habe this conversation in a few months from now. Also on the contrary of you i believe the good of a group more important than my own. I dont seek something for myself alone but for the good of the mass .. if the fc is not going that direction is not worth it those that say one thing and do another those that take from you neber giving bsck
.you can chose not zo see it but i cant and how many inhabit a place doesnt a goid community/fc make... so yeah silly comment

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

Each to his own I guess - thoughts?

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The way I see it and look at it, in its own light it really is a double edged sword for the person buying the clear. Like...okay I can see the frustration building from a person who wants to be able to do the content. Struggling through DF, learning parties or parties being graceful enough to take a new person through this content. I can totally understand this being one side of the blade.

The other side of the blade being...Okay the person bought the clear which got rid of their tome bonus message which makes farm parties shudder and disband. That's all though. The person is still at the mercy of seven others that either may have done the content the normal way, or they might have bought the clear like the other person did. Who knows? Its still a gamble either way, only the person is now several million gil shorter.

To each their own I guess, but it still seems the best way to learn and do this content will always be sticking with a static group only. If that's not an option for the person, then its up to them only to sit down and decide that maybe their is content that is away from their grasp in doing and its perfectly okay cos stressing over a dumb game isn't fun or healthy.

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I will repeat it for you... they have their static and you are just a number to fill the ranks.. unless you are part of the high rank. I reached a point where idont accept help anymore from anyone never know what they say behind your back calling you trash because you are not good enough just like they call others from other groups..

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I'm not disagreeing with you that there are lots of bad FCs out there! Of course there are.

But you are wrongly stating there are no FCs where you could be happy and get the help you need.

I bet if you posted on the Balmung forums (here or on reddit) and said you were looking for an established, helpful FC, you'd get plenty of invites. Or you could join one of the several new enthusiastic FCs and make your mark on an emerging group.

Either way, you have options. You are not a victim!

You're on Balmung. You have better access to helpful FCs than people on all the other servers, yet you're just sitting here throwing a pity party.

Who cares if you had a bad experience in the past? Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and find a FC that would be happy to have you. You'll fit in fine, as long as you're not always this negative.