and yeah I know its in a thread already but I doubt that all people check 20+ pages to find such stuff (since the title doesnt say anything about it )Quote:
Originally Posted by Luxpheras
Incoming nerfs/changes
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06-30-2016, 09:10 AMTiaHariberux3Incoming nerfs/changes
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06-30-2016, 09:18 AMkisada
99% of the playerbase wants to see GC restrictions abolished, and instead the dev team completely ignores that and comes up with this.
i got a lot of thoughts. but the predominant one is just giving up on them and thinking that they actually care about the player's interests. -
06-30-2016, 09:56 AMsirsmith2cool
BAN MOMENT....REMOVE THE FUCKING GC RESTRICTIONS GOD DAMN THE 12.... SHIT LISTEN TOO THE PLAYER BASE. FUCKING SQUARE
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06-30-2016, 10:02 AMCanadane
Are you really making a thread linking to a reddit which links right back to the lodestone forums?
Why not just use the actual thread everyone else is? You can get a good idea of peoples thoughts on this. -
06-30-2016, 02:56 PMlovelikewinterAs the creator of the subreddit thread, I approve this message.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadane
No need to be redundant x-x -
06-30-2016, 07:36 PMGeologo
By the way, even if we was asking for GC estriction removal, the OP made another question,
To me the flat reduction of caster damage on crystal is a totally bad and lazy move,
if the "I'm DPSsing safe a crystal" is a real issue (I dont' think so but... ok), put something like:
"Magic Deflection: if you cast a spell on the crystal from too far (15-20y), a part of it will be casted on you too"
So it will be different mechanic, that in my opinion is bette than a flat nerf, for casters, similar but not identical to the ranged DPS reduction, and also won't affect DRK at all, because their range is anyway under that gap.
The reduction of the points needed to end the match is even worse, because you wil lbe able to full PvE a PvP match even easier now. -
06-30-2016, 08:44 PMCommander_Justitia
PvP kills&bases should give more points, crystals less -if they don't do anything like this it will stay a "pve>pvp" mode
even when you remove gc restrictions, there are still premade so they have a point -
06-30-2016, 09:02 PMGeologoYou can do a premade even right now anyway, on Chaos datacenter most of the very active pvpers are costantly switching GC, so if they wanted they could already do it, and honestly the only imbalance could be a preformed vs solo que, if the preformed would become an issue they coudl fix it making you able to queue only in a max of 4 guys, similar to the 8vs8 feas restriction (where u can join only solo or duo).Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia
But actually GC was an issue lasted too long, we would like to experience another kind of issue at this point XD -
06-30-2016, 09:21 PMTiaHariberux3hmm true but idk if ppl want to check 20+ pages to find the stuff even more if the first pages are full of ppl crying about stuff. this thread was more for people who dont check forums every day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadane
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06-30-2016, 09:45 PMZetsumei_TsunarashiTime to make a Reddit thread that links to this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadane
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07-01-2016, 01:32 AMGeologo
Dont' start a fight because someone started a specific thread,
if SE wanted us fo fight each other, they would give us PvP ... :rolleyes: -
07-01-2016, 02:10 AMIsalaSad part is, it's hardly a joke at this point. Every PvP mode that isn't Fold/Feast seems almost more PvE than PvP. Even Slaughter, the mode literally designed for killing people, took a back seat to the node spawns. Fold is dead, and has been dead long enough, the corpse decayed, and Feast... Well, despite their sticky at the top, they didn't bother doing anything about the crap that happened there, only banning people for being "toxic", instead of banning the match throwers/boosters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologo
They literally have no clue at all about what they're doing when it comes to PvP and it shows in every boneheaded decision they make. -
07-01-2016, 02:19 AMEorzean_usernameEven better — create a thread titled, "This post has activated and begun emitting heat".Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologo
Then, direct all your critical comments to only that thread until it gets locked. Then, post nothing until another thread like it appears, and repeat. -
07-01-2016, 07:16 AMEvangela
Nerfing the mages because they can do ranged damages but not BRD and MCH?
WAR and AST are still OPed. Nerf them. -
07-01-2016, 07:29 AMKenshinT
"Ïn addition to this, we have received numerous comments stating the win/loss rate between the three nations aren't balanced well, in part due to situations where there are strong pre-made parties in specific Grand Companies. The dev. team is aware of this, and currently looking into how they can make adjustments."
Blame premades for the fact that 50%+ off the playerbase downright sucks and/or ignores chat lol -
07-01-2016, 10:39 AMNakanishiWAR and AST are not OP. They don't require anymore nerfs. (Notice that I said anymore, implying they already recieved hefty nerfs)Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangela
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07-01-2016, 11:02 AMDimitrii
The caster nerfs were a result of how the JP play. They still consist the majority and are much more organized supposedly than us even without premades. That's probably why casters got nerfed and BRD and MCH were ignored. That and casters didn't have distance penalties like BRD and MCH do I guess.
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07-01-2016, 12:34 PMEul
How healer gonna damage the ice then if you increase the magic resistance? Oh right healer in PvP only make sure allies still alive not killing ice... I hate being healer in PvP.
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07-01-2016, 02:55 PMGeologoQuote:
Originally Posted by Evangela
Aside from a "stop asking fro nerfs, please",Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
The casters had effectively a very little bonus in my opinion for the distance during the Crystals fight, BUT as BRD when I see an all lone BLM in his beautiful Leylines, I go to shot him, because they become very visible.
Also I think all the classes have they little advantages / drawback, but it's pretty normal, for example even in pve BRD and MNK DPS are different, should I complain to get buffed on crystal as BRD?
(or even worse, ask to nerf the MNKs xD)
Anyway as Dimitrii said, BRD and MCH damage reduction linked to their range is up even for crystals, so if they nerfed caster because of the range, BRD and MCH didn't need any nerf about.
The true problem to me is how the nerf is implemented, -50% dmn is just a dumb "solution". -
07-01-2016, 04:11 PMStormrider
Doesn't this mean that drop from 1600 to 1800 first place can't truly be pushed at the end? Those last 200 points are the hardest to get. If it was to speed up the matched more points per tick per base would speed up the game. This seems like, a give up you aren't going to make up 200 points difference at the end.
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07-02-2016, 02:01 AMKayVonTrarx
The drop in points makes Ice & Base points more important which make Shatter less PVP focused. I've been frustrated because even now, trying to direct people to focus on the PVE aspect pisses off the kill-focused people in the team. That's not their fault either because we're here to fight people not ice.
Trying to reconcile PVE to win versus PVP to stop the leading GC is difficult. Small ice is popping up every minute pulling people away from the core group or bases are getting stolen. I've made bad or ineffective calls as Shatter is much harder to coordinate. Pretty much resolved to not call until I'm more experienced in it.
In Seal Rock, getting an objective meant killing people. It was perfect for both people wanting kills and people wanting to win.
Teamfights are the fun part of PVP & Shatter just doesn't encourage them. Unless you have an overwhelming skill advantage over the others like the GC stacking going on with transfers but that's not the fault of Shatter. -
07-02-2016, 02:54 AMThekkGoing to reuse the numbers I posted in another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by KayVonTrarx
The points available on the maps are the following:- 4 large crystals (300) and 18 small crystals (70), for a total of 2460 or an average of 820 per company
- 2 points per 3 seconds of outpost control (or 40 per minute)
- An overall increase of 5 points per kill (+10 for a company, -5 for another)
There are multiple crystal spawn patterns, but the most common ones have the last crystals spawning at either 8:00 or 10:00. If they take 2 minutes to kill, then the match will be 12 to 14 minutes old when it happens. That would give a company around 560 points in the best case (14 mins and no control change)
Currently, that gives us the following breakdown:- Crystals : 820/1800 = 45,6%
- Outposts : 560/1800 = 31,1%
- Kills : 420/1800 (requires 84 kills/death) = 23,3%
The thing is this is only if the match ends with the last crystal. In reality, that's rarely the case and the result is that outposts generate more points and kills less. If the game lasts the whole 20 minutes, the spread is going to be closer to 45/45/10. Games that last that long usually do because there's not much fighting going on and that is reflected.
With the 1600 limit, the numbers are now:- Crystals : 820/1600 = 51,2%
- Outposts : 560/1600 = 35%
- Kills : 220/1600 (requires 44 kills/deaths) = 13,8%
With this limit, it is very unlikely that the match will ever last 20 minutes as the potential crystal (820) and outpost (800) points bring us over it. If the objective is to make matches end nearly after the last crystal is destroyed, then it's one way to achieve it. However, the spreads clearly show that PvP which already has a marginal part in the total end score is going to matter even less. You could very will win with very minimal fighting, which wasn't possible before and it feels like that misses the point.
In my opinion, a better option would have been to increase the overall points gained from a kill to 10. The result of that would be to reduce the number of kills/deaths needed to 42 (about the same as what will be needed after the change) without increasing the overall importance of crystals, which is already pretty high (some would argue too high). That also makes it more enticing to engage other teams instead of hiding in a corner until the next crystal spawns.
Currently it doesn't feel like it's even worth it trying to attack someone at a crystal because they'll generate more points in the time it takes you to kill them than you will killing them.
All this might boils down to cultural differences between NA/EU and Japan. I remember someone saying that our Seal Rock matches were bloodbaths compared to theirs. This change caters to that mindset and clashes with ours. -
07-02-2016, 04:38 AMKayVonTrarxI've heard their PVP scene had much more people but didn't know about the playstyle differences. I wonder what they've been saying about Shatter over on their forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thekk
It might be a cultural thing but I hate having to choose defensive playstyles to win. I've been criticized for being overly non-confrontational in calls but can't find it in myself to argue in alliance chat to prove exactly what you've showed with the math. Not PVPing wins matches in Shatter. -
07-02-2016, 05:28 AMThekk
Well the thing is that right now you do have to fight at some point or you won't get enough points so you either try to get as many kills as you can between the large crystal spawns or end up having to fight at the end, often ending in a 1v2 if you are in the lead. With the change, just the kills you get left and right will be enough and it will allow for an even more defensive strategy.
One problem is that you have to choose between attacking the crystal or attacking the enemy, with the first option netting a lot more points. It is very unlikely you will wipe a team in the amount of time it takes to destroy a crystal. At most, you will kill half the group and even that is generous. In that case, you would get 120 points and they would get 240 (300 - 60). You would need to kill 20/24 to break even. If kills were changed to +20/-10, it would take 10 to break even. That might encourage people to contest.
In contrast to Shatter, Seal Rock required you to fight over the objective to have a chance at capture. We went from having to both fight and achieve objectives to fight or achieve objectives and that's not a very healthy situation in my opinion.
* Just a disclaimer that I started playing late and have very limited experience with the Cartenau Frontlines (a few odd 24 man matches from roulette) so I can't really comment on how they compare to the current situation.
However, from what I've seen, the large nodes actually did considerable damage to the players which would open up opportunities for kills. That kind of risk is absent from Shatter. The addition of a damage reflect from the crystal which has been mentioned in one thread could be a nice way to spice things up if it applied to everyone. -
07-02-2016, 07:55 AMShaluaLie
bring back seal rock Please.
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07-02-2016, 08:30 AMkisada
for as many reasonable things that i used to post in my attempts to convey reason and common sense changes, i've probably posted just as many, if not more, snarky/sarcastic/critical things about the devs. maybe some of it unfair, though i would contend some of it fair.
so i can understand if i'm completely ignored by the devs. and if i'm not i'd like to at least say this: whatever direction this game's pvp is going is not looking good. there are many people who are very unhappy with it all and it's not getting better. i understand that the commitment devs can make toward such a niche category of the game is limited but whatever is currently going on is just not good enough. pvp needs to go on a different track, with different goals and different intentions. -
07-02-2016, 10:22 AMZenshoI remember when Seal Rock first came out people were like "bring back slaughter please".Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaluaLie
and when Slaughter first came out, people were like "bring back seize please".
hmmm, I can see a pattern here :p -
07-02-2016, 10:26 AMDimitriiDefinitely heard and read the bring back secure chants when slaughter came out but who actually wanted slaughter brought back when seize came out lol?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zensho
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07-02-2016, 10:41 AMZenshooh yeah, I knew I was missing one in the chain, forgot about secure haha XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
wish they would just make one huge random duty rouluette single solo que, and no GC, and same rewards across the board, that would jumpstart PVP -
07-02-2016, 12:08 PMUltimatecalibur
I think a lot of people are not getting why Caster DpS is getting nerfed but not all ranged. This is because Bard and Machinist DpS is already nerfed at ranges beyond 15y (and within 15y if GB/WM is not activated). Only Blackmages and Summoners were doing to much damage from a safe distance.
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07-03-2016, 02:16 AMCynricHowever with increased magic resistance are they allowed to get closer to deal more damage? Currently it does not seem so. However brd/mch can still do regular damage if they want to. The problem is how they adjusted it not what they adjusted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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07-03-2016, 04:43 AMFebrusThis is accurate, but the risks were steeper than just that when Secure was in its prime. In the earliest days, when we had full matches of 72 players, there were actually six capture points in addition to drone spawns. So, players had to split their alliances across the map to try and hold as many capture points as possible while also trying not to fall behind in drone destruction. You needed a majority presence to take and hold a capture point, so combat was nearly constant at the peripheral capture points (the ones which were not directly in front of the GC bases). In many instances, the only way to even take one was to completely wipe out the enemy, but dedicating large forces of players across the map left you thin. Variant tactics were also viable, because the amount of points generated from them was much higher than in 24-man matches. A team could, potentially, ignore drone spawns in favor of capture point dominance and still be a contender for victory. Combat was necessary to actually win, but the risk and reward ratio was much steeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thekk
Honestly, I feel bad for the newer breed of players who missed those 72-man Secure matches. They had their faults, but the 24-man matches are completely different by comparison, and Shatter is just a joke. It really is a shame that SE didn't keep that game mode relevant so that newer players could experience it. -
07-03-2016, 05:03 AMFebrusI agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
Ranged dps definitely needed to be addressed, because alliances were filling up with nothing but ranged players. I personally find this to be a terrible state of affairs, because it discourages combat even further by keeping everyone as far away from each other as possible. When you see three teams standing stalk still in the shape of a peace sign doing nothing but dps on the crystal with no overlap and no incoming dmg to actual players, it makes it pretty impossible to ignore just how bad of a "PvP" game mode this is. That said, I feel like a flat nerf on only casters was probably the laziest way they could have handled this. I don't even play as a caster, and I would have much preferred to see dps put on a sliding range scale, like with Mchs and Brds. Increasing the kill credit for PvP would have been nice to see as well, for the sake of melee players and having viable alternatives to just killing ice.