[MCH Request] Is it possible to have the 30 second ammo time-out removed?

Title. I personally don't see any reason why ammunition has a timer penalty. When a fight hasn't even started you have to constantly spam the skill every 15-29 seconds even at 5 stacks if you want to open with it. Mid-fight, the only times your ammo is going to time out anyway is more or less if there's 15 or more seconds of downtime...but is it such a big deal even in that case? Is MCH ammunition so strong that it needs punishment for not timing correctly on boss downtime? I just find it to be a minor but annoying hindrance to my enjoyment of the job, and can't think of any reason why that penalty exists.

The 30 second timer isn't even a punishment in a duty, as reload is on 15 secs you can just refresh.

It feels for me that the 30 second timer is only punishment during downtime before pull. It's so frustrating being unable to afk for longer than 29 seconds before having to rush back to the keyboard to reload.

Make it like Aetherflow, please.

I agree that it's illogical, I mean what happens? Does our ammo just fall out of the gun after 30 seconds?

I imagine that the original idea was so you couldn't have 5 ammo then wait for reload to be off CD to have 10 ammo ready, but since they changed quick reload to have a shorter recast than the ammo timer (originally this wasn't the case) this idea is kind of moot.

Yeah, bullets shouldn't have an expiration timer. Ammunition should be indefinite. Like Aetherflow stacks.

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Originally Posted by SephstaNekosuki

The 30 second timer isn't even a punishment in a duty, as reload is on 15 secs you can just refresh.

It feels for me that the 30 second timer is only punishment during downtime before pull. It's so frustrating being unable to afk for longer than 29 seconds before having to rush back to the keyboard to reload.

Make it like Aetherflow, please.

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Yeah, I think this is a more succinct version of what I was getting at :P how the 30s thing is pointless, beyond being an annoyance outside of battle.

I don't see the problem with the timer.

Why are people holding onto ammo of over 30 seconds anyway? Even traveling between trash pulls doesn't take longer than that. Why waste two of those that you have saved on your inevitable Hot Shot and Lead Shot? Why ask for a change that could very easily cause loss of synergy with the timers on other skills?

I like the "in battle" use of Ammo on MCH... The last thing we need is something to help boost the opener and I hardly find "if I want to afk pre-pull" a compelling argument.

But yes TC ammo is strong that is why you want the change, if it wasn't this wouldn't bother you.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

I don't see the problem with the timer.

Why are people holding onto ammo of over 30 seconds anyway? Even traveling between trash pulls doesn't take longer than that. Why waste two of those that you have saved on your inevitable Hot Shot and Lead Shot? Why ask for a change that could very easily cause loss of synergy with the timers on other skills?

I like the "in battle" use of Ammo on MCH... The last thing we need is something to help boost the opener and I hardly find "if I want to afk pre-pull" a compelling argument.

But yes TC ammo is strong that is why you want the change, if it wasn't this wouldn't bother you.

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:/

What bothers me is spamming the hell out of it when waiting while people are talking / waiting for CDs pre-pull in raids. You know, the harder content when people want to do as much damage as possible and have no reason not to utilise ammo before pulling. +40 potency is better than +0. I said it was minor in my original post. I don't care about it in trash pulls or anything that isn't Savage and to a lesser extent Extreme Trial.

But "the last thing we need is something to help boost the opener"....what? Removing the timer does absolutely nothing to change the amount of damage output people will do. Why on earth have you just accused me of being some kind of buff scrounger? It's quality of life. The only thing it changes is not having to constantly press it to avoid losing it altogether until everyone's ready, but apparently that means I want to "afk pre pull"? Like SCH, SMN and MNK do with their charges that don't drop off and are infinitely more valuable? That fact you said this implies you're unfamiliar with common raid environments, not to sound elitist. With or without that 30 second countdown people are going to be doing the same damage. Do you realise how ridiculous your argument is?

If the timer remains in the game forever then I'll roll along with it, but that still doesn't mean it has a purpose. And that lack of purpose is why I'm bringing it up.

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

Why on earth have you just accused me of being some kind of buff scrounger?

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Jeeze you're defensive...

I didn't accuse you of anything and if just repeating an argument put forward offends you then you are just ridiculous -_-

Or is feigning outrage over nothing something you like to do? Or is anyone who has a different opinion attacking you personally? Or is this thread only to suit your own ego where everyone just nods and goes "yes you are sooo right!"?

Pick one, none of them are great options.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

I didn't accuse you of anything

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

But yes TC ammo is strong that is why you want the change, if it wasn't this wouldn't bother you.

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^

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Or is anyone who has a differ
ent opinion attacking you personally? Or is this thread only to suit your own ego where everyone just nods and goes "yes you are sooo right!"?

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Different opinions are beautiful, and hardly an attack upon me, though your line about "ammo being strong" and the only reason I want the timer removed is in that ball park. I didn't say that and nothing I said prior implied that. On the contrary in my original post I implied I didn't think it was worth such hassle to warrant dropping off. No, I don't think it's strong enough to warrant being able to fall off at all, and consequently that's not why I want it removed, but you put those words in my mouth. If you hadn't said that maybe I wouldn't be defensive?

If there's a perfectly good reason for its existence then I'm absolutely open to hearing it. The topic title is a question, not a demand or some kind of cry for people to worship me for having a pet peeve.

To respond to your edit, timer synergies aren't thrown off since Reload and Quick Reload will still have their 1m / 15s cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

No, I don't think it's strong

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I do and think you are understating it's usefulness... It's especially easy to see how big a change it can make when using it for AoE rotations. It's not as easy to say "well SMM/SCH has aetherflow" when our toolkit is entirely different. SCH's need their stacks on hand to react accordingly to changing circumstances so SMN gets it's too as they share the same mechanics and they both only get 3 per use. We get 9 bullets in the same amount of time and each of those bullets gives us +20 potency and a guarenteed proc, a proc you may not have got without them, so it could technically be counted as a +220/+200 potency for every clean shot you get.

How many 2nd wildfires have you got though without ammo whilst pulling off the same amount and type of shots as you would have if you did have it? I don't think it has ever occured with me, mind you the RNG gods really hate me.

You cannot compare them like they are the same, they are vastly different just as the jobs themselves are.

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

Is MCH ammunition so strong that it needs punishment for not timing correctly on boss downtime?

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

No, I don't think it's strong enough to warrant being able to fall off at all, and consequently that's not why I want it removed, but you put those words in my mouth. If you hadn't said that maybe I wouldn't be defensive?

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So what words did I put in your mouth again? Oh yeah I didn't -_-

I'm not saying you are asking for buffs to get stronger, I'm simply stating that a QoL change like this could have consequences in the future. Especially since it's on a rather intergal part of the jobs toolkit.

Sigh, it was a rhetorical question. Even on long downtime there's nothing stopping you refreshing it, and in most cases you will anyway even if there wasn't the threat of it dropping off. If my rhetorical question confused things then I'm sorry, but your argument to keep the timer is still unclear. The "punishment" you seem to be proposing and justifying only works if you actively let it drop or forget to reapply in those rare moments, and even then it's such a weak (self-) punishment. -20/40 potency, because with that much downtime you're not gonna get a combo proc with it. It's a gain to have ammo up before a pull. Even if it's on Hot/Lead. In raids, you spend a lot of time having to refresh it before pulling while waiting for cooldowns / strat discussion etc. In raids you want to do as much damage as possible. I find it annoying having to constantly refresh when I want to play optimally, so am seeking a reason if any as to why it can't be removed. That's all.

You said "so I can AFK" isn't a good enough reason to remove it (there's more word-twisting) but still haven't proposed a logical reason it should stay either. I'm not against justifications for it if there are any, but nothing you said in your original response makes sense...but the annoying part is it ended with a fictional jab at me wanting some un-needed buff without even pointing out how my request results in such a thing. I can understand a rhetorical question being misunderstood, but come on, of course I'm irritated by that.

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

snip

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So I didn't put words into your mouth? Taking option 1 and "feigning outrage over nothing"?

Ofc the question is "rhetorical" to you because the possibily of ammo being a strong cd is not an option *rolls eyes*

Being irritated is your problem, as you are the one who took it that way in the first place. If I was going to have a "jab" at you I would've been far less discreet about it...

I think the point here underdog is that you haven't given any plausible reason why it shouldn't be taken off the timer other than "unforeseen consequences".

You said it would be too powerful on the opener. And something about AoE. But what you've failed to realise is that you can already keep ammo up indefinitely for both those scenarios (or any, actually) just by using quick reload. The ammo timer is 30 seconds, quick reload has a 15 second recast and refreshes the timer. All this change would do is make it so you don't have to constantly spam quick reload to keep a stack of 5 ammo up. Which as it stands doesn't make sense anyway because ammo generally doesn't magically vanish from guns after 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

I don't see the problem with the timer.

Why are people holding onto ammo of over 30 seconds anyway? Even traveling between trash pulls doesn't take longer than that. Why waste two of those that you have saved on your inevitable Hot Shot and Lead Shot? Why ask for a change that could very easily cause loss of synergy with the timers on other skills?

I like the "in battle" use of Ammo on MCH... The last thing we need is something to help boost the opener and I hardly find "if I want to afk pre-pull" a compelling argument.

But yes TC ammo is strong that is why you want the change, if it wasn't this wouldn't bother you.

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Nor is "it's already strong" a compelling argument to have a finite ammo duration, especially when it's equivalent apart from that annoyance, Aetherflow, is stronger still.

QoL changes are not DPS changes. Being able to afk while waiting a minute for someone else's CDs to come back and the pull to start is not asking for more opener dps. It is asking for the same QoL that every other job in the game experiences during pre-pull.

Parallel topic:

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

"...that is why you want to change..."

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is pretty clearly putting words in someone's mouse. It's also mistaken, as ammo's strength has never been the reason given for wanting the change anywhere in the OP.

He simply asked, rhetorically it would seem, if it was so strong that it somehow warranted a tacked-on annoyance. I would argue that it is not. On the other hand, I'm not sure what you are arguing at all, as the question here has always been first "should we get rid of the annoyance" and only secondly "does the ability's strength warrant that annoyance". You argue that it is strong, but where is the reasoning for that annoyance being the best balancing addition, and against what? Telling someone what their thoughts were and then attacking a subtopic without even addressing the main point is a pretty good way to get people defensive, believe it or not.

I've always thought that the better solution would be to give both Reload and Quick Reload no cooldown if you are not in combat. (If a fight ends with it still on cooldown, the cooldown still ticks down normally and you have to wait).

The reason for that is - particularly during progression raiding - wipes are downtime where you get to catch a bit of a break and maybe tab out for a few seconds. So I never liked prepping ammo that much because it requires me to start paying attention 30s to a couple of minutes before the next pull, sitting there refreshing Quick Reload when I could catching a breather. I really dislike that.

This way, you could come back when your tank is hitting his pull macro, hit Reload for a 5-ammo opener and still open normally (which is exactly the same as you hitting Quick Reload 5 times, 75 seconds before the pull, just made more convenient).

Honestly all I want is to have ammo/Huton to not expire until you enter combat.

Also I don't the reason why we have ammo expire in the first place aside from being able to have 5 ammo at the beginning everytime.

/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.15>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.15>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.15>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.15>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.15>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/macroicon "Quick Reload"
/echo End of Reload

I think it should be like aetherflow, but in the mean time, this macro should help your qol if you need to afk. With a macro icon and an echo at the end, it gives you about 5 minutes of afk time. It also quick reloads you to full ammo as quickly as possible.

There's also the aspect in PvP of going in with full ammo and both reload abilities off cooldown rather than refreshing it (and not having Q.reload off cooldown).

But eh. It's not big of enough of a QoL improvement for me to push for it.

If I can AFK all day with three Aetherflow stacks, you shouldn't lose ammo stacks after 30 seconds.

Ammo stacks shouldn't be timed. And if you quick reload on a stack of 5 it does stay at 5. It should indeed be like Aetherflow.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

There's also the aspect in PvP of going in with full ammo and both reload abilities off cooldown rather than refreshing it (and not having Q.reload off cooldown).

But eh. It's not big of enough of a QoL improvement for me to push for it.

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The change doesn't have to be applicable to pvp though. A lot of skills have properties that are modified in pvp.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

There's also the aspect in PvP of going in with full ammo and both reload abilities off cooldown rather than refreshing it (and not having Q.reload off cooldown).

But eh. It's not big of enough of a QoL improvement for me to push for it.

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If you use quick reload by the time it's off CD you will still have 15 seconds on ammo, it also takes 12 seconds to use a full stack of ammo, meaning there is literally a 3 second window where you could use all your ammo and possibly not have quick reload off cooldown (most of which will be spent on the global cooldown) leaving about 0.5 seconds where you need to wait for quick reload to come off CD before you can shoot. Is this incredibly tiny niche possibility really a reason not to take the timer off?

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

I think you are understating it's usefulness... It's especially easy to see how big a change it can make when using it for AoE rotations. It's not as easy to say "well SMM/SCH has aetherflow" when our toolkit is entirely different. SCH's need their stacks on hand to react accordingly to changing circumstances so SMN gets it's too as they share the same mechanics and they both only get 3 per use. We get 9 bullets in the same amount of time and each of those bullets gives us +20 potency and a guarenteed proc, a proc you may not have got without them, so it could technically be counted as a +220/+200 potency for every clean shot you get.

How many 2nd wildfires have you got though without ammo whilst pulling off the same amount and type of shots as you would have if you did have it? I don't think it has ever occured with me, mind you the RNG gods really hate me.

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What on earth are you talking about?

The proposal here is to remove the 30 second duration that ammo has when loaded (i.e. if you don't use your ammo or reload within 30 seconds of gaining them, you lose all remaining charges). This should never actually happen during an encounter, as you will either use up all your remaining stacks, or use quick reload to refresh them.

This suggestion wouldn't allow you to do anything you can't already do. The DPS increase would be zero. It wouldn't change AOE rotations, it wouldn't magically make you have more ammo on a 2nd wildfire, or anything else at all!

(Unless, are you possibly mistaking the request for removing the actual cooldown on reload? Because yes, that would be crazy!)

I am more interested in why a timer is in there to begin with more than asking to remove it.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I am more interested in why a timer is in there to begin with more than asking to remove it.

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Machinists were a bit different at release. Quick Reload's values were changed to what it is now in Patch 3.07
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...7aff5b99d9fb32

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Machinists were a bit different at release. Quick Reload's values were changed to what it is now in Patch 3.07
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...7aff5b99d9fb32

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I know I was there. What I am asking is why the developers believe that a timer should be on ammo. I don't think you add a timer to something like that without reason.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

If you use quick reload by the time it's off CD you will still have 15 seconds on ammo, it also takes 12 seconds to use a full stack of ammo, meaning there is literally a 3 second window where you could use all your ammo and possibly not have quick reload off cooldown (most of which will be spent on the global cooldown) leaving about 0.5 seconds where you need to wait for quick reload to come off CD before you can shoot. Is this incredibly tiny niche possibility really a reason not to take the timer off?

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It's likewise the same reason why we should take it off (how much of an effect it'd have). I'm just throwing it out there for people who say there's absolutely no effect on actual gameplay when there's still the aspect of PvP and frontlines; it'd speed up my burst by a entire oGCD if I was able to jump into battle with full ammo at hand and still have a backup reload if I get OIP'd.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I know I was there. What I am asking is why the developers believe that a timer should be on ammo. I don't think you add a timer to something like that without reason.

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Most likely a carryover from what they initially had MCH planned to be; they mentioned ammo being required for specific abilities and reload having it's own niche (as in, not something you'd use off cooldown but rather being planned for something). There's so many ideas they scrapped from the initial previews there's a quite a bit of stuff left over from it that annoys me about the class design in general.

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

I personally don't see any reason why ammunition has a timer penalty. When a fight hasn't even started you have to constantly spam the skill every 15-29 seconds even at 5 stacks if you want to open with it [...]

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Hi,

As playing as a MCH as main character I totally agree with this.
SQUARE ENIX can you remove the 30 second ammo time-out please ?
Even Monk class doesn't have any time-out for chakra (V) so I don't see why MCH should have one.
It's really annoying to have to charge it when you are raiding and to lose the effect if you forget to activate it again to reach the 5th level.
MCH is one of the lower class for DPS with BRD so why did you create this 30 second ammo time-out as we already fighting hard for doing our best to have a decent DPS compared to other classes ?

Aetherflow and Ammo should not be compared. Aetherflow isn't a slight damage augmentation, it allows the limited and restricted use of some very powerful abilities. Ammo just increases your DPS slightly and ensures procs, which are already 50/50. A SCH has to choose between using stacks for instant single target Healing, Shielding the raid, DPS, instant AoE heal. Due to the wide range and potency of Aetherflow abilities, they allow you to stack hold the charges indefinitely. Ammo is less dynamic and has a specific use.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Aetherflow and Ammo should not be compared. Aetherflow isn't a slight damage augmentation, it allows the limited and restricted use of some very powerful abilities. Ammo just increases your DPS slightly and ensures procs, which are already 50/50. A SCH has to choose between using stacks for instant single target Healing, Shielding the raid, DPS, instant AoE heal. Due to the wide range and potency of Aetherflow abilities, they allow you to stack hold the charges indefinitely. Ammo is less dynamic and has a specific use.

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But none of what you explained still really contradicts the QOL change. Dynamic and specific use still doesn't change that MCH can't go to the washroom between raid pulls.

If anything, that ammo is such a throwaway resource compared to aetherflow stacks is making a stronger case for it to stick around (or for reload to have no cooldown outside combat which I prefer).

If it has little impact on gameplay and won't break anything - MCH aren't going to be doubling their DPS or something - there's no harm in doing it if it's a QOL increase,

I feel like the 30 second Ammo duration was just a relic from back when Quick Reload cooldown was 30 seconds. There isn't really any reason for it to stay anymore.

Yeah, I used to not really care about it when I didn't play machinist too much, but recently I decided it would be my secondary-main (SCH being my main) and my main dps job and started doing a lot of research and work on getting better with it.

Now the ammo timer has begun to annoy me, though obviously only pre-pull. I set my ammo in with quick reload and then wait, but then the tank takes too long and I have to watch the timer so I can quick reload again so i dont lose my ammo. It is just kind of a pain right now and it makes no sense for it to be there anymore.

Also: stop with your stupid arguments of "it doesnt matter because you use it quickly anyways." And yes, during battle it really doesnt matter, but it is pre-pull where it does matter in that it is a major pain to deal with.

Removing the timer gives no real advantage to MCH, this change would just be QoL. As for people saying it could affect PVP. Abilities and such have had differences between PVE and PVP before, if it would be broken in PVP just keep the timer on in PVP but not in PVE

I always asumed the "ammo charge" was for the lightning-aspected aether u load into the gun from u'r hip pack & not for the bullets u fire normally? or am I just crazy for asuming MCH's "ammo charges" worked like a charge bar on a railgun system that could "theoreticly" temp-charge (in game case a "Proc") from the kenetic energy of the round being fired & the "ammo" was u supercharging 1-5 bars (hence the Potancy plus)?

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I agree that it's illogical, I mean what happens? Does our ammo just fall out of the gun after 30 seconds?

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It loses its charge. It was explained in the MCH job quests.

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Originally Posted by The_NPC

I always asumed the "ammo charge" was for the lightning-aspected aether u load into the gun from u'r hip pack & not for the bullets u fire normally? or am I just crazy for asuming MCH's "ammo charges" worked like a charge bar on a railgun system that could "theoreticly" temp-charge (in game case a "Proc") from the kenetic energy of the round being fired & the "ammo" was u supercharging 1-5 bars (hence the Potancy plus)?

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Oh good, someone actually paid attention! You're a rare one it seems.

Greetings, gunslingers of Eorzea!

We've received quite a fair amount of feedback regarding the duration of the Ammunition effect, and plan to make adjustments to this in the future. While changes are still in development, we welcome any additional thoughts you may have and request that the machinists of the realm please look forward to it. :)

I would not to have to keep spamming quick reload before pulls because someone wants to temp afk or something.

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Originally Posted by Luxpheras

Greetings, gunslingers of Eorzea!

We've received quite a fair amount of feedback regarding the duration of the Ammunition effect, and plan to make adjustments to this in the future. While changes are still in development, we welcome any additional thoughts you may have and request that the machinists of the realm please look forward to it. :)

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I look forward to what they have in store for us.