Complex Math Question

Hello, my name is Syz and I suck at math.

I'm wondering what is more DPS and/or enmity efficient for tank openers -

A. WAR MT Unchained opener + DRK OT w/ full DPS opener

or

B. WAR OT x3 Cleave opener + Shadewalkered Gritless DRK MT w/ 1x Power Slash DPS opener (substitute the first Souleater for Powerslash instead).

My gut tells me the former is weaker in DPS (-5% and less Cleaves for WAR, no procs for DRK), but that the latter doesn't generate enough hate against things like MCH or DRG burst.

If someone numerically inclined could provide some numbers for both enmity and DPS on both these scenarios that'd be pretty cool =]

Also if my suspicions are correct and B. is indeed superior on the DPS front but is lacking in enmity assuming both tanks remain out of stance, is there a way to modify it (perhaps an extra Power Slash? or a variance in the NIN's opener?) that would push it above the threshold to maintain a hate lead anywhere near what the Unchained opener can provide?

P.S. Not looking for opinions or hearsay or preference, just cold, hard numbers/facts.

You would have to specify what kind of Unchained opener we're talking about. Unchained Berserk into Fracture + FC, Unchained Berserk into double FC, Bare Unchained into Berserk double/triple FC. In all cases I'm going to say Unchained is better, because it's better for hate while MT only loses 5% for no Deliverance.

And like you said, DRK pulling without grit and using only one Power Slash is not a real scenario, you will not hold hate. My personal experience is that you need at least 1, usually 2, Power Slash in Grit to hold DPS burst, before turning Grit off and laying down your own burst. For those Power Slashes you will have -20% dmg if you pull, while a WAR would only suffer from -5%.

I'm gonna let someone else go into this deeper, but in the meanwhile, you might wanna read this thread about Unchained: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ing-this-skill

Using Unchained means you lose 3rd FC's 500pot + 5% Deliverance + Maim + Storm's Eye + Berserk VS -20% damage for 1 full combo of Power Slash (slashing debuff not up too) + Low Blow + Dark Passenger + Unmend at start. This is what I can think of. Let me know if there is a loophole. Has anyone tested how offensive buffs work? Flat or multiplicative? Let's just assume flat boost for now. Slashing debuff less than 10% effectiveness? In terms of what WAR and DRK lose and gain with different roles is as follow.

WAR OT, DRK MT:
DRK: No slash debuff, Grit on. 150 (Unmend) +150+220+300 (PS combo) +100 (LB) + 150 (DP) = 970pot. Simplying things, let's say it's a flat -20% in Grit. 100% (Darkside still up) x 970pot = 970pot.
WAR: Gain 3rd FC in 1 Berserk. Simplify things and make it a flat boost, 500pot x (100%+5%+20%+10%+50%). 500pot x 185% = 925pot.

WAR MT, DRK OT:
WAR: Loss of 3rd FC, Loss of 5% from no Deliverance + slash debuff at start for 1 Tomahawk+ Brutal Swing + BB combo (assuming if NIN puts up slashing debuff for WAR) = 150 (Tomahawk) + 150+200+280 (BB combo) + 100 (Brutal Swing) = 880pot
DRK: can do DASE combo more with Darkside up and slash debuff up (150+250+400) x (100%+20%+10%) = 1040pot

Admittedly I have no idea how offensive buffs work exactly. Again, let me know what I am missing or feel free to correct anything here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

snip

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The scenario I mentioned assumes the DRK doesn't pull in Grit at all not even for the first few GCDs. Just Shadewalker and X# of Power Slashes.

I’m no math wizard but I’ll take a crack at it for the lulz. In discussing stances in a previous thread here I was informed they were, in fact, multiplicative in nature so I’ll be using them as such. I don’t know what specific rotations we are covering so I’ll try to find some “standard” ones to test.


Option A
WAR MT (Unchained) :
Infuriate>Raw Intuition>Unchained>Tomahawk>Heavy Swing>Brutal Swing>Maim>Berserk>Storms Eye>Heavy Swing>Skull Sunder>Butcher Block>Deliverance>Fracture>Heavy Swing>Fell Cleave>Infuriate>Brutal Swing >Fell Cleave (11 total GCDs of actual damage)

Damage Potency
Unchained negates the -25% of Defiance, so we use a damage modifier of 1. The Unchained part should be - 1 x [150(TH) + 150(HS) + 100(BS) + 190 (MA)] + 1.8 (base 1 x Maim 1.2 x Zerk 1.5)[270(SE)] + 1.98 (base 1.8 x 1.1 for SE debuff)[150 (HS) + 200 (SS) + 280(BB)] + 2.079 (base 1.98 x Deli 1.05)[280 (FR) + 150 (HS) +500 (FC) + 100(BS) + 500 (FC)] – or [590] + [486] + [1247.4] + [3180.87]= 5504.27 dmg potency

Enmity Potency
I can’t link it, but I’m using the reddit enmity wiki for these values. Defiance has a 2.7 modifier attached that I’ll do at the end. I will add the enmity modifiers attached to certain moves as we go– so all enmity potency before stance swap is 1 x [{150(TH) x 3(em)} + 150(HS) + 100(BS) + 190 (MA)] + 1.8[270(SE)] + 1.98 [150 (HS) + {200 (SS) x 3.5(em)} + {280(BB) x 5.5 (em)} ] - or [830] + [486] + [4732.2] = 6048.2 The enmity potency while in Defiance is 2.7(6048.2) = 16330.14 enmity potency. We then add the remaining dmg potency of 2.079 x [280 (FR) + 500 (FC) + 100 (BS) + 500 (FC)] = 3180.87, for [16330.14 + 3180.87] = 19511.01 total enmity potency

DRK OT:
Dark Passenger>Low Blow>Scourge>Salted Earth>Hard Slash>Blood Weapon>Syphon Strike>DA Soul Eater>Plunge>Hard Slash>Syphon Strike>DA Carve and Spit>DA Soul Eater>Hard Slash>Syphon Strike>DA Soul Eater>Hard Slash (11 total GCDs of actual damage)

Damage Potency
Darkside puts us at 1.15 (base 1 x DS 1.15) and ill add it at the end. [150 (UM) + 150(DP) + 100 (LB) + 500(SC) + 525(SE) + 150 (HS) + 250(SyS)] + 1.1 (base 1 x SE debuff 1.1)[400 (DASE) + 200(PL) + 150(HS) + 450(DACS)+ 250(SyS) + 400(DASE) + 150(HS) +250(SyS) + 400(DASE)] – or 1.15 x [1825 + 2800] = 5318.75 dmg potency

Caveat- If Blood Weapon adds an extra GCD in the 11 GCD window the next Spinning Slash will add 316.25 dmg potency.

Combined damage potency for Option A is 10823.02
Enmity potency for Option A is 19511.01


Option B
WAR OT:
Infuriate>Raw Intuition>Heavy Swing>Brutal Swing>Maim>Storms Eye>Heavy Swing>Berserk>Fell Cleave>Infuriate> Fell Cleave>Maim>Storms Eye>Fracture>Heavy Swing>Maim>Brutal Swing>Storms Eye>Fell Cleave (13 total GCDs of actual damage)

Damage Potency
Deliverance puts us at 1.05 (base 1 x 1.05) which again I’ll do at the end. Damage potency is [150(HS) + 100(BS) + 190(MA)] + 1.2 x [270(SE)] + 1.32 (Maim and SE) x [150(HS)] + 1.98 x [500(FC) +500(FC) + 190(MA) + 270(SE) + 280(FR) +150(HS) + 190(MA) + 100(BS) +270(SE) + 500(FC)] – or [440] + [324] +[198] + [5841] = 6803. 1.05 x 6803 = 7143.15 damage potency.

DRK MT out of Grit:
Unmend>Dark Passenger>Low Blow>Hard Slash>Blood Weapon>Spinning Slash>DA Power Slash>Salted Earth>Scourge> DA Carve and Spit >Hard Slash>Syphon Strike>DA Soul Eater>Plunge>Hard Slash>Syphon Strike>DA Soul Eater> Hard Slash>Syphon Strike (13 total GCDs of actual damage)

Damage Potency
Darkside puts us at 1.15 (base 1 x DS 1.15) and ill add it at the end. [150 (UM) + 150(DP) + 100 (LB) + 150(HS) + 220(SpS) + 300(PS)+525(SE) + 500(SC)] + 1.1(base 1 x SE debuff 1.1)[450(DACS) + 150(HS) + 250(SyS) + 400(DASE) +200(PL) +150 (HS) + 250(SyS) + 400(DASE) + 150(HS) + 250(SyS)] – or [2095] + [2469.5]=4565.5. So total dmg potency is 1.15 x 4565.5 = 5250.325

Caveat- If Blood Weapon adds an extra GCD in the 13 GCD window the next Soul Eater will add 506 dmg potency.

Enmity Potency
[{150 (UM) x 3(em)} + 150(DP) + 100 (LB) + 150(HS) + {220(SpS) x 3.5(em)} + {300(PS) x 5.5(em)} +525(SE) + 500(SC)] + 1.1(base 1 x SE debuff 1.1)[450(DACS) + 150(HS) + 250(SyS) + 400(DASE) +200(PL) +150 (HS) + 250(SyS) + 400(DASE) + 150(HS) + 250(SyS)] – or [4295] + [2469.5] = 6764.5 So total enmity potency is 1.15 x 6764.5 = 7779.175

Combined damage potency for Option B is 12393.475
Enmity potency for Option B is 7779.175

Adding Ninja's Shadewalker gives extra 6572.59 enmity potency. (see math below)
For a combined Enmity potency of 14351.771

I don't know anything about Ninja but we should take whatever their damage potency is in this window and add 80% of that to option B's Enmity potency. We could compare that number to MCH/DRGs damage potency in the same window to see if it would be enough to hold it through the burst.

Just eyeballing it, it would seem to me better option to Shadewalker the WAR in Option B. Im trying to keep in mind that Option B has two more GCDs than A, but the damage enmity alone that a WAR produces is only 600ish behind the DRK using Power Slash - and I didnt even let WAR use BB combo which would be worth even more enmity. If they did use BB they would rip it off of the Gritless MT DRK I think.

Still working/reviewing this before finalized^ please note any mistakes so i can fix it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chronons

DRK OT:
Unmend>Dark Passenger>Low Blow>Scourge>Salted Earth>Hard Slash>Syphon Strike>DA Soul Eater>Plunge>Hard Slash>Syphon Strike>DA Carve and Spit>Delirium>Hard Slash>Syphon Strike>DA Soul Eater (11 total GCDs of actual damage)

Feel free to review/fix this^ as I work on B!

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Missing Blood Weapon, which allows DRK to use DASE 4 times in a row during the opener, so there's no Delirium.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Feel free to review/fix this^ as I work on B!

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Yay! ty... the only thing I noticed is that the DRK opener isn't using Blood Weapon which would allow you to turn that Delirium into a Souleater. Not sure if it lands an extra GCD or not (I don't think it does? but maybe). The ideal place to stick it in without changing too much of what you have here would be to double weave it with DA (after DA) in between the first Hard Slash and Syphon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Missing Blood Weapon, which allows DRK to use DASE 4 times in a row during the opener, so there's no Delirium.

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beaten to the punch D:

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Missing Blood Weapon

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Yay! ty... the only thing I noticed is that the DRK opener isn't using Blood Weapon

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Lol idk why I missed that. I left out some buffs - Internal Release, Bloodbath, Vengence etc. that were in the rotations to keep it from being too cluttered and derped with BW. I think i've got it fixed now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

I'm gonna let someone else go into this deeper, but in the meanwhile, you might wanna read this thread about Unchained: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ing-this-skill

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Um, yeah, I read that thread. It didn't tell me anything I didn't already know and devolved into a cockfight as early as 3 posts in, complete with casuals calling raiders selfish, spoiled, catered-to DPS junkies and raiders calling the casuals subhuman fecal idiots. =/

Here's hoping this thread doesn't do the same. I'm just looking for accurate numbers.

I found an opener for Ninja to get a better idea of what is possible with Option B.

Ninja
Huton>Spinning Edge>Blood for Blood>Gut Slash>Aeolian Edge>Suiton>Spinning Edge>Trick Attack>Kassatsu>Shadow Fang>Raiton>Mutilate>Dream within a Dream>Mug>Spinning Edge>Jugulate>Gut Slash>Duality>Aeolian Edge (9 total GCDs of actual damage)

Damage Potency
Kiss of the Viper brings baseline attack modifier to 1.1. Ill add Suition and Raiton damage at the end to make my life easier. So, 1.1 x [150(SE)] + 1.21 (base 1.1 x BfB 1.1)[200(GS) + 320(AE)] + 1.331 (base 1.21 x SE debuff 1.1)[150(SE) + 400(TA)] + 1.4641 (base 1.331 x Trick Attack 1.1)[440(SF) + 360(MT) + 300(DD) + 140(MG) + 150(SE) + 80(JG) +200(GS) + 320(AE)] – or [165] + [732.05] + [199.65] + [2913.559] + [180 suit] + [360 rait] = 4550.259 dmg potency.

We have to keep in mind two things here. One is that this is only 9 GCDs compared to the 11 and 13 we had above, the second is that Huton increases the attack speed of Ninja by 15%. Meaning their GCD speed is lower than WAR or DRK. It’s around 2 as opposed to 2.5 from what I’ve read (could be wrong). So that means they could fit 13.75 GCDs in the 11 in Option A and 16.25 in Option B. Since I don’t know any rotations that long, I’ll just take the avg potency per GCD on the rotation we do have and apply it to Option A and B. 4550.259/9= 505.584 Option A: 505.584 x 13.75= 6951.78 Option B 505.584 x 16.25 = 8215.745

Ninja’s Option A dps doesn’t really matter to us, just there to test the math, but let’s add 80% of Option B to the enmity potency. 8215.75 x .8= 6572.59

Which gives Option B a total enmity potency of 14351.77

Caveat- In reality its probably lower than this as BfB falls off at the end of the 9 GCD rotation, but idk enough about Ninjas to map out the next 7 GCDs. For now we can take this number as a guide understanding it is probably higher than what we should actually expect.

Confused why you're doing maths on NIN. Surely the NIN will use Shadewalker regardless of who pulls, thus resulting in a flat, equal enmity gain on both sides.

The argument in favor of WAR MT opener is that the DRK will never, ever need to use PS (among other factors). Accounting for only 1 PS in an entire encounter is realistically only going to work in something like A6S or A8S phase 1, because generally people will get a lot of uptime on the boss and therefore produce a lot of enmity.

Another thing to consider is that when a WAR pulls they're also going to use Vengeance with Berserk, IR, Bloodbath, etc. up because you're realistically not going to need Vengeance ever within 2 minutes of the start of a boss encounter - you have RI and Thrill + Convo available to you if you need a cooldown. I mention Bloodbath, because of my next point which is...

Healer DPS. By having a WAR pull, not only will you get tank stance's default "mitigation", you also get the 30% damage reduction which will presumably lead to more GCDs for both healers to use before needing to actually heal.

Basically, with DRK MT you gain 1 FC in place of a Maim (which you forgot in your WAR MT opener or maybe you were trying to use equal GCDs between both MT openers idk), lose Vengeance ticks vs 1 Reprisal + Low Blow reset, lose healer DPS, and also a bunch of enmity that will probably be needed on any encounter that doesn't disappear/die really quickly. Reprisals/Low Blow resets also will still actually exist since you'll swap after the WAR MT opener, but in the DRK MT opener the DRK just keeps MTing so you entirely lose the Vengeance ticks.

Anyway, it's really min/max and now that Gordias Savage has happened you probably won't need to min/max hard enough to meet any DPS checks. Just do whichever your group is comfortable with.

e: One more thing, encounters aren't all striking dummies that can have set in stone openers for every single one. Some times it's better for the DRK to pull, sometimes it's better for the WAR to pull. It really depends on what damage goes out at the start of the fight and who needs to end up tanking what when. Experiment and see what gives you the best results.

If you're planning on swapping after Unchained, you would probably want to wait until after the swap to use Shadewalker on your DRK. Your WAR and DRK will come out of the swap neck and neck on enmity, which is going to put a cap on your WAR's ability to use BB. In addition, this approach still forces at least 1 PS on DRK following the swap (as a continuation to SpS), even if you sync up your combos and execute it flawlessly.

When you do comparisons like these, you're not really trying to maximise enmity. You're just trying to create a safe enmity gap between yourself and the next highest player. The problem is that this usually isn't a dps. It's your WAR.

I like the Unchained opener, but I'd rather see it used if the WAR is planning to continue tanking to the next natural swap. A5S is a good place for this, for example. Swaps, in practice, are associated with dps losses of their own that need to be offset, so it's probably better for most groups not to swap unless encounter mechanics force you to.

Shadewalker WAR on opening.

Smokescreen WAR after swap.

I've no idea how you're holding off against DPS/healers with just 1 PS and Shadewalker, without Grit, the entire time. If you are, keep doing what you're doing because technically that's optimal.

I had a look how a few different groups set up their openers, back during the thread discussing the role of Plunge in DRK's opener. I noticed that a certain world-first progression group was doing exactly that on A5S-A7S, except with Grit on for the initial PS. It's going to be partly contingent on both you and your ninja, but it seems reasonably doable, even when playing with highly skilled and geared dps.

I don't really see the point in using Shadewalker on WAR during an Unchained opener. If anyone else is remotely close in enmity after that opener, your WAR really should reconsider their job choice. If you're going to swap in the first two minutes or so, you want that difference to be applied between your DRK and your WAR, not just between your tanks and the rest of the group.

The reason I did the math on Ninja was because Syz was wanting to compare WAR(MT) - Unchained and DRK OT vs. a Gritless DRK(MT), a WAR OT, and a Ninja supporting. Option A doesn't have the Ninja at all according to my understanding.

As far as the rotations go - of course they are open for interpretation. Its really hard to gauge how many GCDs each one would get in the given amount of time because technically the puller gets extra uptime for being the first hit and the second may start the rotation before the pullers GCD reprocs. I just tried my best to find "basic" rotations and keep them pretty equal as far as GCDs went so we could get a rough idea of the numbers possible.

I agree with both of you that WAR would probably be the better option to try and tank stance-less Shadewalker, but for whatever reason the OP may want DRK in the MT slot and is just trying to find a way to maximize it as best as possible within that parameter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I had a look how a few different groups set up their openers, back during the thread discussing the role of Plunge in DRK's opener. I noticed that a certain world-first progression group was doing exactly that on A5S-A7S, except with Grit on for the initial PS. It's going to be partly contingent on both you and your ninja, but it seems reasonably doable, even when playing with highly skilled and geared dps.

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Thats funny, I did the same thing for that thread and noticed this group doing it as well. It very well could be the best option for the OP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I had a look how a few different groups set up their openers, back during the thread discussing the role of Plunge in DRK's opener. I noticed that a certain world-first progression group was doing exactly that on A5S-A7S, except with Grit on for the initial PS. It's going to be partly contingent on both you and your ninja, but it seems reasonably doable, even when playing with highly skilled and geared dps.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Thats funny, I did the same thing for that thread and noticed this group doing it as well. It very well could be the best option for the OP.

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Yeah that's what my group defaults to, but we're experimenting with new things since we replaced our WAR with one who is... much more of a team player and willing to try things.

After testing it I could do the Gritless+NIN opener with 2 Powerslashes but not 1. And of course the Unchained opener works like a charm, we all knew that. I guess I just wanted to see what the bare minimum would be that I could get away with if I'm pulling enmity-wise, and if that would be more DPS efficient.

Since you can reliably hold aggro both ways then the real question is just- which is more dps efficient? The Grit one PS or the Gritless two PS. What rotations do you use in each scenario?