Bring back 18% Stoneskin

WHMs really need some form of better mitigation. Scholars were given burst aoe heals because they had no real answer for a WHM medicas/cure IIIs. They were given the same protect that we have, so that you didn't HAVE to include a WHM in your group.

Well there are so many fights where true mitigation is almost required that a WHM is relegated to doing specific roles because they can not do even a fraction of true mitigation.

At the very least give us back our 18% stoneskin instead of the joke it is now.

Or at least give a better trait instead of just 0.5s less cast time on Stoneskin.

Mitigation is for sch, heal is for whm. I do agree we have too much heal skills ( and still, emergency tactics and indomtability got a decent cd, which gives NOT a medica equivalent.) and have not enough pure protection. But give you such a shield will make the two class look similar in the end. Please no.

At least for the group one, for the prepull, but I won't accept a 18% HP shield from a pure heal job.

That's fine and i'd agree with you Llynd if square intended to keep the jobs truly distinct, but they've shown that they aren't doing that. They want to give parity to scholars but have not given it to WHMs.

Stoneskin at 18% is about as on par with Adlo as the scholar aoe heals are with medica. Stoneskin takes a long time to cast, we're not healing during that time unlike scholars who have their fairy going along with getting some heal out of adlo. Your adlo scales with your healing abilities, Stoneskin is purely dependant on the target's HPs. Stoneskin is crazy expensive mp wise for what it does. And we still only would have a way to put stoneskin on one target at a time.

So, you're actually saying that you won't use it, even if It gets buffed? To me, whm really are fine this way ! ^^

Maybe factor in the third healer into your OP and you may get a better picture.

SCH and Noct AST are there to do the mitigation where it is needed.

WHM and Diurnal AST are there to do the bulk of the healing.

Give WHM both higher throughput of heals (which they have already over AST) and better mitigation than Diurnal AST, then you have less reason to take a Diurnal AST over WHM.

I think you'll find I didn't say that at all, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that there are downsides to an 18% stoneskin that a scholar doesn't need to worry about, much as there is a downside to a scholar's aoe heals a WHM doesn't need to think about

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Maybe factor in the third healer into your OP and you may get a better picture.

SCH and Noct AST are there to do the mitigation where it is needed.

WHM and Diurnal AST are there to do the bulk of the healing.

Give WHM both higher throughput of heals (which they have already over AST) and better mitigation than Diurnal AST, then you have less reason to take a Diurnal AST over WHM.

---

Then take away scholar's AOE healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorglath

Then take away scholar's AOE healing.

---

Nah, we are not saying that whm shouldn't have it, but less strong then what a sch can do. Same for us, we only have two aoe heals and way less strong than what whm can do. It's fine this way ya know. ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llynd

Nah, we are not saying that whm shouldn't have it, but less strong then what a sch can do. Same for us, we only have two aoe heals and way less strong than what whm can do. It's fine this way ya know. ^^

---

Then I think we're saying pretty much the same thing. I don't think an 18% stoneskin is anywhere near the mitigation potential that a scholar can do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorglath

Then take away scholar's AOE healing.

---

SCH isnt on the level of either WHM or AST aoe healing.

Actually it is ! Its not acceptable that you can immitate our Adlo ! 10% is way enough ! A sch cannot immitate the heal you can give with 3 medica one after an other ! Its the same !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llynd

Actually it is ! Its not acceptable that you can immitate our Adlo ! 10% is way enough ! A sch cannot immitate the heal you can give with 3 medica one after an other ! Its the same !

---

Sarcasm detected, initiate auto cleanse........:).

The thing is, the way you can interact with adlo in a raid makes it significantly more powerful than either stoneskin or N.A.Ben.

To balance this level of mitigation, WHM get stupidly powerful aoe heals.

And AST gets more mitigation that whm, but less than sch. And more powerful aoe healing than sch but less than whm. Ast to compensate brings significantly more powerful buffs than sch or whm. I think this is what the OP needs to consider. (But dammit, give me my MND bonus on AST already).

The three healers are balanced around each other, but even then, sch is silly powerful. But it doesnt mean whm should get granite skin back due to adlo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorglath

Stoneskin at 18% is about as on par with Adlo as the scholar aoe heals are with medica.

---

This is the funniest thing I've heard today.
Try using just TWO medicas every 30 seconds when in need of heavy AoE healing, then come here to report how you found the experience.
Bceause there's no way a SCH worth their salt will spam Succor except in two cases
1. The main healer is dead -> Panic (sometimes) -> Solo heal while trying to raise without other casualities
2. No reason
Succor is used only for those heavy raid damage mechanics, not for actual healing. And based on the mechanic/fight, might as well just go for a deployed Adlo.

That leaves Indomitability (30 sec CD) and a Emergency Tactics+Succor (30 sec CD).

So yes, try using just two Medica every 30 seconds, and see if you can full people up for the next mechanic.
If you can't, that means AoE healing is not on par.

For I've read, SE nerfed the Stoneskin on WHM from 18% to 'normal' 10%, because in ARR they numbers where low and since we're getting better equipment and higher HP... They decided that 18% is too much. That's why they nerfed. But, I remember the old days of ARR where I used to join as SCH in Dugeons and whenever I used Stoneskin on tank, the WHM would do it just right after me, like saying 'yours is awful, leave it to me'. Same was valid to Protect, where WM's Protect would give both Physical and Magic protection awhile the SCH/PLD would only give Physical protection. Oh.. good old times...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nathair

This is the funniest thing I've heard today.
Try using just TWO medicas every 30 seconds when in need of heavy AoE healing, then come here to report how you found the experience.
Bceause there's no way a SCH worth their salt will spam Succor except in two cases
1. The main healer is dead -> Panic (sometimes) -> Solo heal while trying to raise without other casualities
2. No reason
Succor is used only for those heavy raid damage mechanics, not for actual healing. And based on the mechanic/fight, might as well just go for a deployed Adlo.

That leaves Indomitability (30 sec CD) and a Emergency Tactics+Succor (30 sec CD).

So yes, try using just two Medica every 30 seconds, and see if you can full people up for the next mechanic.
If you can't, that means AoE healing is not on par.

---

And no WHM would would spam stoneskin (even with 18%) to the same degree a SCH uses adlo.

25,000 HP Tank (non War) is Adlo'ed for 3,000. Gains a shield of 3,000. MP Cost of 1060. Assuming the tank was already topped off from the WHM, the spell is worth 3,000.
25,000 HP Tank (non War) is Old SS'ed at 18% for 4,500. MP Cost of 884.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mizi

For I've read, SE nerfed the Stoneskin on WHM from 18% to 'normal' 10%, because in ARR they numbers where low and since we're getting better equipment and higher HP... They decided that 18% is too much. That's why they nerfed.

---

That aside, SE decided to get every % heal out of the way. Nerfed ss, nerfed Lustrate, because Tanks' HP were going to skyrocket.
We're never getting graniteskin back, as we're never getting getting the flat 25% Lustrate back.

They gave the same protect to everyone for a simple reason: with AST now as a third healer. there's very high probability you're not getting a WHM. It was necessary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawrz

25,000 HP Tank (non War) is Adlo'ed for 3,000. Gains a shield of 3,000. MP Cost of 1060. Assuming the tank was already topped off from the WHM, the spell is worth 3,000.
25,000 HP Tank (non War) is Old SS'ed at 18% for 4,500. MP Cost of 884.

---

You're not taking into effect the initial heal added to the mitigation. You're not taking into effect the addition cast time of stoneskin even with our "trait" You're not taking into effect crits for your shield. Things are not as equal as you make them seem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorglath

You're not taking into effect the initial heal added to the mitigation. You're not taking into effect the addition cast time of stoneskin even with our "trait" You're not taking into effect crits for your shield. Things are not as equal as you make them seem.

---

If they are already at full health at this point (Hello Cure II or Benefic II,) then adlo isn't doing anything. You use Stoneskin to mitigate an attack that would kill someone or to invest time from when you don't need it, to when you do (right after the tank buster.) If you have 4 seconds to cast a shield before a tank buster, 2.5 and 3 seconds are no different. How about when there is downtime in a fight? People are full health at this point.

Theres a 1 in 5 chance I'd crit adlo with my current stats.
9k, 3k, 3k, 3k, 3k. Vs 4.5k, 4.5k, 4.5k, 4.5k, 4.5k
21k vs 22.5k

So how is it, you want a class that can spam Cure II, a real medica, and a perm AOE Regen, to get a single target Shield that's greater than a shielding class, with less MP cost to boot?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorglath

You're not taking into effect the initial heal added to the mitigation. You're not taking into effect the addition cast time of stoneskin even with our "trait" You're not taking into effect crits for your shield. Things are not as equal as you make them seem.

---

Nor are they any way as clear cut as you are trying to make out. It would push WHM single target reliable mitigation on tanks further ahead of both AST and SCH, and this would not be balanced. Adlo is rarely used to heal, its there to mitigate the next incoming attack, and this is how stoneskin is used in a fight by a competent whm.

Pro-shell (or whatever the whm protect trait used to be called) and granite skin can not be given back to whm unless they nerf other things in the whm skillset or seriously buff AST so it can compete for the main healer slot along with WHM.

Also, you need to address the fact that there are three healers in the game, and the capabilities of the healers have to be based around the three of them. As of yet you have failed to acknowledge that AST actually exists and how it impacts on the game balance between the three healers, including how WHM has to be balanced around AST's inclusion in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawrz

If they are already at full health at this point (Hello Cure II or Benefic II,) then adlo isn't doing anything. You use Stoneskin to mitigate an attack that would kill someone or to invest time from when you don't need it, to when you do (right after the tank buster.) If you have 4 seconds to cast a shield before a tank buster, 2.5 and 3 seconds are no different. How about when there is downtime in a fight? People are full health at this point.

Theres a 1 in 5 chance I'd crit adlo with my current stats.
9k, 3k, 3k, 3k, 3k. Vs 4.5k, 4.5k, 4.5k, 4.5k, 4.5k
21k vs 22.5k

So how is it, you want a class that can spam Cure II, a real medica, and a perm AOE Regen, to get a single target Shield that's greater than a shielding class, with less MP cost to boot?

---

Ok Fair enough, at this point after seeing some more info from scholars I can conceed 18% will be too much, but we do need something more than 10% stoneskin. We just can not do anything in mitigation situations, but scholars CAN do something in aoe situations.

I, personally, would be much more open to removing Super Virus trait and just reducing its CD to 60 seconds for ACN. This gives WHM/BLM access to a fully functional virus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Also, you need to address the fact that there are three healers in the game, and the capabilities of the healers have to be based around the three of them. As of yet you have failed to acknowledge that AST actually exists and how it impacts on the game balance between the three healers, including how WHM has to be balanced around AST's inclusion in the game.

---

Astro's are "passable" at both healing and mitigation strategies. I don't feel that WHM getting some form of useful mitigation takes anything away from them or would make it so no one took them.

People are making the mistake of comparing an 18% stoneskin to a scholar's adlo. The choice is never between a white mage or scholar. The comparison which should be drawn is that between a whms 18% and an astros 10% stoneskin. As it stands, they both have the same mitigation. But changing the whms to 18% significantly tips the whm to be superior by a huge margin. It adds a big reason for people to take whm over astro (see: uplander doom) which is exactly what se said they didn't want to happen. It would give whms a bit too much utility on top of what they already have.

And on a side, people are incredibly underestimating schs aoe potential. Succor + indom is 700 potency worth of heals in 3 secs and the option of emergency tactics is there if necessary, as is deployment tactics and whispering dawn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawrz

I, personally, would be much more open to removing Super Virus trait and just reducing its CD to 60 seconds for ACN. This gives WHM/BLM access to a fully functional virus.

---

See now, this is what I'd rather avoid. Because this does go to taking away some of the uniqueness of scholar and making the healers the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorglath

Ok Fair enough, at this point after seeing some more info from scholars I can conceed 18% will be too much, but we do need something more than 10% stoneskin. We just can not do anything in mitigation situations, but scholars CAN do something in aoe situations.

---

Er, WHM can cast stoneskin for mitigation........also has untraited virus and eye-for-an-eye.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorglath

Astro's are "passable" at both healing and mitigation strategies. I don't feel that WHM getting some form of useful mitigation takes anything away from them or would make it so no one took them.

---

Well for a start, AST are far more than passable for healing and mitigation.

Secondly this is what internal balance is about for healers. The devs even said it themselves when they explained the removal of granite skin and giving all healer pro-shell was so AST could compete against WHM for a healing spot in raid groups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aryn_Lastrov

People are making the mistake of comparing an 18% stoneskin to a scholar's adlo. The choice is never between a white mage or scholar. The comparison which should be drawn is that between a whms 18% and an astros 10% stoneskin. As it stands, they both have the same mitigation. But changing the whms to 18% significantly tips the whm to be superior by a huge margin. It adds a big reason for people to take whm over astro (see: uplander doom) which is exactly what se said they didn't want to happen. It would give whms a bit too much utility on top of what they already have.

And on a side, people are incredibly underestimating schs aoe potential. Succor + indom is 700 potency worth of heals in 3 secs and the option of emergency tactics is there if necessary, as is deployment tactics and whispering dawn.

---

And this is exactly what i have been talking about with balance between three healers and not just between WHM vs SCH balancing. I am glad someone gets it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorglath

And no WHM would would spam stoneskin (even with 18%) to the same degree a SCH uses adlo.

---

Exactly why changing doesn't make much of a difference anyway, since the sch covers the pray etc.

In almost every fight in the game, Whispering Dawn and Indom have been enough for AoE healing. Failing that, Succor would top them off. Failing THAT, Emergency Tactics could be used. There are almost no fights were massive multi-target AoE damage happens in a frequency greater than every 30s. So yes, while Scholar's AoE healing is in fact weaker than WHM they parse about even in live play. This is something most people seem to forget when theory crafting.

On the other hand, WHM has no unique forms of damage mitigation. Even AST has Bole and Collective Unoncious as possible tools outside of Noct. Now, I don't agree that retraiting Graniteskin is the way to go. That's honestly a bit too far in my opinion. Instead I would like to see some other form of soft mitigation similar to Sacred Soil or Bole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorglath

See now, this is what I'd rather avoid. Because this does go to taking away some of the uniqueness of scholar and making the healers the same.

---

That's ironic considering the base toolkit of astrologians are renames of WHM skills. Ah wait i can't say that, because they're totally unique skills with the same potency and less mp cost for some reason.

Either way while i agree graniteskin would be OP, proshell change dilluted whm identity too. And if yoshida cared that much about healers having the same toolkit, virus, E4E, stoneskin and protect wouldn't have class specific traits and asylum would also have +10% damage mitigation on it.

You're looking at Stoneskin as an individual skill by itself and only itself. An 18% Stoneskin + Adlo at the moment would be ridiculous amount of mitigation on-top of other cooldowns.

Late to the party but

At the old 18% traited, Stoneskin scales better as ilvl increases than raw healing does, or at least thats the reason why SE removed the trait.
They knew tanks would recieve vastly inflated HP as 3.x progressed, and thus they believed 18% of those pools as mitigation would be unbalanced.
Whilst it may not seem that big a difference vs other mitigation at this point, it would only get "worse" over time.

If they do a similar ilvl jump next tome cycle, we will be looking at i260 upgradable to 270. Whilst its hard to accurately predict, id wager we will be seeing tanks close to the 40k HP range. Give or take a bit and underballing slightly, and 18% STSK would sit around 7k mitigation probably.
Current reliable shielding is on average 3k i think. Even if i lowballed an 18% STSK to do 5k mitigation next tome cycle, i doubt the shields would gain a 2k boost to match when going 210 to 230/40 gained us at best like 800-1k.
Sure STSK is slightly longer cast but if your using it in fight for its mitigation on busters, you would generally know when that buster is due and cast ahead accordingly so its semi moot.

If the 18% stuck about you would probably be able to combo with adlo/a.bene next cycle for about 10k mit. Crit adlo would probably push that to 13/14k maybe even 15k if you had godly crit stats and a high HP tank. Going by my very shakey predicitions, that would be somewhere from 25% - 35% of a tanks HP saved, not even counting defensive CD's.


All in all it was a "pre-balancing" act on SE's part.

How about a 11% stoneskin not so powerful

if ppl want WHM to feal more special then change that trait we got in replace of "Granite skin" with something that gives a 2-5% def bonus when under the affect if the buff from Regen or Medica 2 & make it so this "new def buff" last less than the skills normal 1 (so def buff lasts 10sec while Regen/med2's Hot lasts 21'ish), personally thou I'm fine with WHM as is only problem I have is with squishy tanks that think there God & can't back it up

(WHM is my only healer class & I have yet to feal this drive to be special ppl mention... sure I might be jelious of SCH's ability to DPS & heal due to pet but if lv'n ACH showed me 1 thing is that micro-managing a pet & heal/moving is harder than WHM, so skilled ones have my respect)

I think WHM trait for stoneskin should make it instant cast (like regen). At least it would be useful as some sort of emergency mitigation pre tank burster or something like that.

Here was Yoship's quote on Graniteskin removal.

Quote:

---

Q16. In regards to the effect of Protect and Stoneskin, can you add some type of advantage, similar to pre-patch 3.0, for white mages?

A16. As I mentioned previously, we made adjustments to actions that were largely based on stat percentages, and due to this the identity of each job was lost when using these abilities as additional actions. I apologize for this.

However, to compensate for this, we've added in a great deal of healing power.

---

Quote:

---

However, to compensate for this, we've added in a great deal of healing power.

---

...and then they buffed astro to almost the same healing power. plus his buffs, disable and the 10% aoe shield even in whm stance... and we should not forget all his instant-heals...

Phenomenal Cosmic Power.... Still no analogue to Cure III. Still a weaker Med II. Still a weaker (shorter by 3s) Regen.

WHM is still the only Job in the game with any AoE heal skill with greater than 600 potency - and it possesses two such skills, alongside an instant-cast Medica on a 90s timer, its primary healing buff being active 50% more frequently (60s v 90s). Its instant heal is quicker to come back, but has scaling based on remaining health and is still weaker than Benediction.

Yes, Astrologian got buffs so its heals would be good enough so as not to be absolute hot garbage.

No, Astrologian's buffs did not come anywhere close to displacing White Mage as the healer with the most consistently potent healing capabilities in the game.



THAT SAID... Stoneskin at 18% was too strong. WHM doesn't need shields - that's not its job. WHM/WHM is a shit comp in the same way as SCH/SCH is a shit comp. Shields don't stack, HoTs do. 10% from a Stoneskin is enough, coupled with cooldowns, for anything that's gonna come at you. Raid mitigation is the one thing they lack, sure, but the game shouldn't be balanced around comps which double up on any given Job.

Yep, 18% stoneskin would be a bit too powerful with today's HP pools, and with a Scholar Adlo. Basically the directive was for White Mage to get out of the mitigation business and leave that to the shielding, off-healer. Same with the dollar-store version of Virus cross-classed. Astro is mostly in the same ballpark when in the main healer seat as Diurnal. Disable is there in a sense because they don't cross-class with arcanist, and the job was also "designed" to sit in on the Scholar seat (although that isn't normally done in serious raiding).

There are still people that want double mitigation healer shields to "stack". That is a bit game breaking too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

...and then they buffed astro to almost the same healing power. plus his buffs, disable and the 10% aoe shield even in whm stance... and we should not forget all his instant-heals...

---

Don't forget the innately lesser MP cost on spells, innately lesser aggro generation on healing, double (I think) duration on their main MP refresh ability....