Make normal primal encounters more relevant to the extreme versions

This trend in HW of normal mode primals being near completely different fights than their extreme versions is terrible design. If a player were to go from Seph normal into SephEx, they'd be completely in the dark on at least half a dozen mechanics.

This makes it very hard to get new players into the fights, much less getting them to clear/farm them. It ultimately shrinks the endgame PuG/Static pool to pitifully small numbers compared to the endgame server population.

The normal modes should teach players how to successfully clear the extreme fights. They should be literally the same fight with the numbers tuned down to allow more room for error.

It's even more fun when you have people that farm Sepphi EX in their sleep and then get into normal and it's like "I have no memory of this place".

If it were the same encounter it would make extrem really boring
Because you would already know all the step just have to being the tempo up and it's down

They have to make new mechanics and new attack to make it harder !
In fact all the normal fight prepare you to handle basic extrem fight and you only need to adapt for a few things

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And true to ruskie
Sephi nm or thordan nm are like
What the hell is this place
That's not the dance i know
It hit like a lalafel... barely lost half of my life in one mechanics

When ex fight are almost insta kill

So are you asking that they cater to the lowest common denominator, or raise the base skill level required?

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Originally Posted by Destous

This trend in HW of normal mode primals being near completely different fights than their extreme versions is terrible design. If a player were to go from Seph normal into SephEx, they'd be completely in the dark on at least half a dozen mechanics.

This makes it very hard to get new players into the fights, much less getting them to clear/farm them. It ultimately shrinks the endgame PuG/Static pool to pitifully small numbers compared to the endgame server population.

The normal modes should teach players how to successfully clear the extreme fights. They should be literally the same fight with the numbers tuned down to allow more room for error.

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Bad idea I'd say. It is the additional mechanics that make the Extreme versions difficult.
The higher numbers on Extreme are basically just so you can't ignore mechanics completely.
If normal mode had the same mechanics as EX have now, normal mode would become much more difficult than it is.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

It's even more fun when you have people that farm Sepphi EX in their sleep and then get into normal and it's like "I have no memory of this place".

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lol yeah that has happened to me. Even moreso though thordan normal is not even remotely close to the ex version.

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Originally Posted by Destous

The normal modes should teach players how to successfully clear the extreme fights. They should be literally the same fight with the numbers tuned down to allow more room for error.

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This should be the same for everything including raids. This way people can train on boss mechanics on a forgiving environment. Extreme/Savage should just be about more damage done and 1 hit kill mechanics. The problem now is that its too difficult to "learn" a fight.

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Originally Posted by DukeGr

This should be the same for everything including raids. This way people can train on boss mechanics on a forgiving environment. Extreme/Savage should just be about more damage done and 1 hit kill mechanics. The problem now is that its too difficult to "learn" a fight.

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They don't have to be exactly the same, just more relevant in terms of flow. It's very seldom when the phases of a normal primal line up with the extreme version. It's why people can go from a normal primal fight they know by heart to running around like a chicken with its head chopped off during the extreme version. Extra mechanics thrown into extreme primals is fine, but make the experience gained from learning the normal version much more applicable to the extreme version. Right now, the largest similarity between normal and extreme versions is the primal you're fighting.

One fight does not make a trend.

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

If it were the same encounter it would make extrem really boring
Because you would already know all the step just have to being the tempo up and it's down
ll

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This would make more sense to me if the normal (hard) version required any sort of farming. We run it once and move on to extreme, so it's not like we've been farming it for months and now move on to farming something else for months. Having the mechanics transfer between the two would be a great way of introducing you to the mechanics and teaching the player. Currently, that is greatest fault with this game. There is such a massive jump in difficulty (from Seph to Seph Ex, from Midas to Midas Savage etc.) with nothing to ease you into it.

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Originally Posted by DukeGr

This should be the same for everything including raids. This way people can train on boss mechanics on a forgiving environment. Extreme/Savage should just be about more damage done and 1 hit kill mechanics. The problem now is that its too difficult to "learn" a fight.

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That would take away a large draw to raids for the raiding communtiy. Why would you even bother when a lot of the point of doing the raids is to learn a new and fun fight with new mechanics and design. If you go in already knowing the mechanics then progression would just be rapid and boring. We already saw what that's like with just alexander and the uproar on lore and art already. If people aren't happy with similarities in just the look of the fights what makes you think identical fights would be good for the game?

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

One fight does not make a trend.

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It's true for BisEx.
It's true for RavEx.
It's extremely true for ThorEx.
It's true for SephEx.

BisEx is the least severe, I'll give you that. However, every extreme encounter after it barely relates to the normal mode.

I don't see it as much of a problem, with the exception of Shiva Extreme, where being too used to that mode can be detrimental in normal (I'm looking at you, Sword stance party soak!).

You pick up the basics in the normal mode, extreme just throws a few extra wrenches into the situation. Although I will agree that there needs to be a better branch between current Expert content and current Extreme/Savage content.

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Originally Posted by LucentLagombi

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In a sense that may be true but at the moment hard content in this game is experienced by only a small fraction of the playerbase. By allowing people that desire to learn and become better, without making the process itself almost impossible for people that are either late to join the "learning groups" when content is released or just don't have so much time to dedicate to a static, you will see a much higher participation percentage for the "hard content".

Take for example Thordan Extreme, no one does learning groups anymore and people farming it require experience and clears. It's impossible to attempt a clear via Duty Finder and unless you are in an FC with people that want to help it's impossible to get a clear. Now if the Normal Thordan fight had the same mechanics and you could clear it multiple times to learn how it works, the transition to attempt the extreme fight would be 100 times easier.

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Originally Posted by DukeGr

Take for example Thordan Extreme, no one does learning groups anymore and people farming it require experience and clears. It's impossible to attempt a clear via Duty Finder and unless you are in an FC with people that want to help it's impossible to get a clear. Now if the Normal Thordan fight had the same mechanics and you could clear it multiple times to learn how it works, the transition to attempt the extreme fight would be 100 times easier.

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This exactly. It's crazy to me that naysayers to making extreme content more accessible/more streamlined to learn isn't seen as a sense of elitism, yet having a built in meter is seen as elitism.

SE are releasing a thing to learn phases to fights, right? Was it just for Alexander, or Extreme Trials as well?

I'm confused by this thread... Seph ex introduced I think 3 new mechanics (tethers, force of might/magic and the arena puddle things), made a few mechanics slightly harder (no aoe indicator for ysod, double stack for jump attack, cochma gives magic debuff) and other than that just changed up the rotation and damage output. All the mechanics from normal mode work the same. For the most part Thordan ex follows the same formula, you just get fewer visual indicators for the attacks, or they are compounded.

Most the ex primals are just slight changes and steps up in difficulty with only a couple new things thrown in to make it interesting.

Hard modes are fine preps for ex versions. It's not the fights that need changed, it's the mindset.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Most the ex primals are just slight changes and steps up in difficulty with only a couple new things thrown in to make it interesting.

Hard modes are fine preps for ex versions. It's not the fights that need changed, it's the mindset.

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BisEx and RavEx keep the same phase pattern, but with extra mechanics and variations thrown into them.
ThorEx is a completely different fight from regular Thordan.
SephEx phases 1 and 2 (where nearly all the learning parties fail the most) are completely different from normal Sephirot.

You'd have to be highly disingenuous to say what you said.

To be honest, I think extreme modes are only there for people who want a good challenge. We are given a choice to either just do hard modes or go further into content and challenge our learning capabilities in extreme. These people must be determined to use their fundamental knowledge from normal mode and try to apply it into extreme mode while anticipating for different ways from normal that each phase may go. If you're a new player with little experience with extreme/savage modes, at least watch a video before going in blind. If you think about it, the normal modes do have some sort of semblance to extreme mode, it's just a few tweaks and harsher conditions, and that is what makes it fun. Don't forget, there are some people out there who are willing to help new players in extreme mode clears. It took me less than a week to learn Sephirot ex since I made it a habit to memorize every phase. Same with Thordan.