I am still pretty new to the game, with a week left on my free thirty before the sub kicks in, so I ask in all sincerity what that quote in the title of this thread means, especially coming from a tank.
Was doing a basic Qarn run, put Regen on tank, switched to Cleric Stance, and did lots of Aero and Stone II during trash and boss fights. Re-upped Regen when it expired. Helped clear trash faster, tank's health stayed way up. Rarely needed to drop Stance and use Cure II. Run was going fast & smooth.
Halfway thru I get that one line from tank before next pull. So I stop using Regen during trash, have to use Cleric II a lot more, tank's health on average is lower (I also use more mana but that doesn't matter), spend less time in CS helping with damage. Basically from my pov things were worse.
Didn't get a chance to ask why he said that 'cause I type slow and we kept going full speed ahead, but, I am baffled. Is there some reason not to use Regen on a tank during trash pulls?
Riddle Me This: "Regen on pulls is bad"
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05-03-2016, 01:35 PMtinythinkerRiddle Me This: "Regen on pulls is bad"
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05-03-2016, 01:38 PMAnaviAnael
Regen will pull hate off the tank. Once it starts ticking and restoring HP, that generates enmity and pulls the mobs toward you. Often times the tank doesn't have time to Flash/Overpower/Unleash/etc before Regen starts ticking so mobs fly all over the screen. :)
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05-03-2016, 01:38 PMMikita
If you cast regen on the tank -as- he is rushing towards the mobs, you will pull hate and the tank will need to work overtime to prevent the mobs from rushing after you first.
Better to let the tank build up hate first, then cast Regen before going into Cleric Stance. ^^ -
05-03-2016, 01:39 PMAlphaFox
The reason not to use regen before a pull is because you will be the top target the moment the tank goes in to attack. Once the tank has aggro, feel free to pop a regen on them but before hand is dangerous for you and can mess the tank up, especially if they can't manually remove it easily like on PS3/4
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05-03-2016, 01:41 PMtinythinkerOK, that makes sense. Like I said I am new so I figured there was something I was missing. Didn't seem to be a problem, and in prior runs in DF people actually suggested that what White Mages do is to put regen on the tank, hit Cleric Stance, and load some DoTs/use Holy/fire Stones/etc, so I thought I was doing it right. Thanks for the insight!Quote:
Originally Posted by AnaviAnael
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05-03-2016, 01:43 PMtinythinkerQuote:
Originally Posted by Mikita
OK, so I had it right EXCEPT wait for Regen until the tank finished pulling first, and lay off of it if s/he needs to reacquire aggro. Thanks so much. Lots for me to learn. I hope maybe other new healers will learn from my error.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFox
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05-03-2016, 01:47 PMAnaviAnaelOur pleasure! It's always best to ask. How else are we to improve ourselves?Quote:
Originally Posted by tinythinker
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05-03-2016, 02:00 PMtinythinkerAlways glad of thoughtful help. When I first ran Qarn a couple of weeks ago, I had no idea what doom was, that it shows up silently after a room-wide AoE in your debuff bar, to go to the glowing square, or that you should stand near the middle square since the first square fades fast. Got kicked from that group for being confused and dying a lot. Next run someone took 30-40 seconds to explain, never had an issue after. Same with story-mode Titan the next day. Kept getting knocked off even though I ran ASAP. A nice player in my third run (first completed w/ me dead, second gave up) told me to hug Titan's butt and someone later made me aware of legacy movement. Was wondering if I should continue with the game for a while because I was failing basic mechanics on pre-50 content, now I can run both of those very well & later that AoE in the big battle in Praet was no big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnaviAnael
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05-03-2016, 02:19 PMAlphaFox
The one thing a lot of players keep forgetting is we were all new once. If we want this game to continue to grow need to be nice to the new players.
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05-03-2016, 02:28 PMAshkendorYep, exactly! Shield Lob/Tomahawk/Unmend only targets one mob, but the rest in the pack will typically link to those and will automatically be pulled to the tank (often referred to as body pull/facepull) but they will have no aggro at all on them until the tank hits them with something (usually Flash, Unleash, or Overpower). Regen ticks go off faster than you can go from one GCD to the next so by the time your GCD comes up again and you can use an AoE hate skill, the mobs are nomming on your healer's face. Healers don't like having their faces nommed. On the off chance that you do pull hate, run to the tank. :3Quote:
Originally Posted by tinythinker
BTW, you ask good questions. Also, kudos on being proactively DPS'ing. ^^ -
05-03-2016, 03:19 PMSaccharinI have a habit of doing that too and most of the time it's completely fine. A tank should be aoeing a pack with flash or other class ability they have before they start their combos anyway to avoid stay mobs. Some tanks dont know how to approach a group of mobs properly. If the tank is a second too slow and your regen critical strikes it can generate a fair amount of enmity and position the mob away from the tank. With a 2.5 second global cooldown (the delay between next action) a stray mob can do quite a bit of damage until the tank can regain control.Quote:
Originally Posted by tinythinker
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05-03-2016, 03:50 PMEidolon
I kinda wanna throw out there that you might find yourself in a situation 50+ Where you're actively on the move, and you -have- to throw the tank a heal during the pull itself. Places like Wanderer's Palace HM come to mind, with the final pull (Frog+add after the door if someone opens it for you) and the pull before the second boss (doing all 3 packs) where if you don't heal, you'll likely lose your tank.
In these cases, it's moreso up to the tank to land a Flash/Overpower/Unleash on the mobs as they go, and your Cure II shouldn't be able to pull threat off them if you make sure to cast it after they pass through a group of mobs (Same issue with Regen here where, if you drop a cure II on them in the middle of flashing, you might rip it off them and cause them to miss said AoE's.)
It sounds like you're still a bit earlier in your career (You mentioned Qarn?) so you might not have run into large-pulls yet. But you might be hitting it soon as you get closer to 40+, especially with Dzemel Darkhold coming up if you ever get a tank that pulls -everything- leading to the front door (It's easy to heal, don't worry - there's an 80% damage down buff that basically makes you immortal.)
Good luck with your healing. -
05-03-2016, 04:02 PMjssanderson747He basically wants you to use regen, but not before he's able to grab aggro since that messes up the positions of the enemies. It's just annoying having to tomahawk a straggling trash mob because they ran through you to grab the healerQuote:
Originally Posted by tinythinker
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05-03-2016, 04:11 PMMrsFluffyButt
As a tank main, I can honestly say that if you or the tank you have is competent, regen on pulls is perfectly fine, especially with larger pulls. As a tank, if you plan on doing large, multi pack pulls, you shouled ALWAYS use your aoe emnity skill on pack before moving forward, isn't hard and you can do it whilst moving so there's no reason not to. That Regen could be the thing which keeps you up and running during large pulls, don't be an idiot tank.
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05-03-2016, 04:55 PMEbonwings
Like everybody in here just said it's bad and you get aggro as it ticks when the tank goes in for the enmity and must rushes after mobs to get those that target the healer. As a tank I don't mind that much in lower level dungeons.XD since sometimes I just need some fun tanking once in a while since going a bit overtime is like a challenge to me. I won't do that in hard dungeons or on big pulls thought, it will kill the healer fast. XD
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05-03-2016, 05:08 PMHighwilds
Regen is fine on pulls. A good tank knows they have to claim all mobs on big pulls before continuing to the next pack. Otherwise the healer has to stop to cast a heal and if they actually manage to reach with it (instant spells like lustrate and benediction? Ouch!), all the unclaimed mobs will come to the healer anyway, regen on or not. That way healer also gets left behind while tank runs forward. It ends up with a situation that healer has most of the mobs, tank is nowhere near and it's a wipe.
I had to tell one tank to stop taking off regen while he was doing big pulls. He insisted on taking it off and I had to stop for heals, got aggro, got interrupted by attacks trying to heal myself and at that point I knew we were going to wipe, which we did. There was no way even a Benediction on myself would have saved me. I ended up explaining the situation why I cast regen and afterwards it went smoothly.
So yes, regen on pulls is okay as long as you have a tank that knows their job! :D (Flash on warrior is pretty hax as well!) -
05-03-2016, 05:35 PMPomelo
If you stick to the tank like glue and regen while you are next to him, then his aoe threat skill will take aggro anyway, but its generally bad to have it up on pulls.
This is why sometimes as AST I stick to the tank...because if I time dilate my hots at the wrong time they will last on to the next pull >.< -
05-03-2016, 06:10 PMGranyala
It's really only an issue with unexperienced tanks though.
If you see regen as a tank, you either klick off the buff before you pull or, you are aware of where the healer stands and intercept the mobs.
Most dungeon mobs hit like wet noodles, so even if they go to the heal and smack him once, it doesn't matter.
Having HoTs ticking is more of a nuisance to a tank than an actual threat to yourself.
BTW: imho, pulling a group of mobs with Shield Lob/Tomahawk/Unmend is utterly idiotic, given the whopping 2.5 seconds you can just stand there and watch the mobs do whatever they want before you are allowed to use your next skill.
Personally, I don't care as I always jump in and pull with unleash. -
05-03-2016, 07:16 PMTheFatHousecatThis is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsFluffyButt
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05-03-2016, 08:10 PMKerii
@OP: Based on what you said, you were fine. You just need to change the order of your opener a little. Start with Aero, then a cure, then regen. This gives the tank two GCD's of enmity generation before you've thrown out your regen.
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05-03-2016, 09:49 PMtinythinkerThanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerii
And while I get the message "Regen will pull aggro off of a tank who is in the process of pulling", more info could help as I don't know the hate rules yet, which a healer needs to understand every bit as well as a tank to do their job properly. So to be clear:
-Enmity builds over time; taunts/damage from tank build it but it can take time to accrue; healing can cause it & also accrue it over time; HoT from Regen on tank before a pull can outcompete what some tanks pull with for enmity?
-I mostly use Shroud for mana regen in boss fights or really big pulls because of the long cool-down, but is it worth it on regular trash pulls for keeping my enmity lower while I use my healing stick? -
05-03-2016, 10:11 PMEidolonBasically, every action you take, regardless if it's a self-buff, a heal, a damaging attack, or a high-enmity move from a tank, causes threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by tinythinker
For example, if your tank aggro's a boss you will also be on the threat list. If you pop your self-buffs, you might actually pull the boss if the tank doesn't use -anything- on it. It's a small pittance of an amount though, and is easily overwhealmed by the most basic of moves.
As for the enmity of a tank, check and see if they have "Defiance (Lv.30)", "Shield Oath (lv.40)", or "Grit (Lv.30)" up. These three skills are the tank skills that reduce incomming damage (PLD/DRK), increase the HP and Healing Recieved (WAR), and also grant a bonus to threat generation (All.)
In the early game, before you even recieved Regen, tanks have a little bit of a more difficult time with the initial establishment and maintenence of threat - especially as your gear level grows higher and higher. If you're healing a tank in Qarn as your example, and he's level 35 Paladin, that means his gear is at best i35 HQ (And even that is unlikely for most players taking their tanks through these levels), while yours is at 37 HQ garunteed from your current level 53 WHM. This means the Paladin will have a harder time holding threat as he can't generate as much as a 37 HQ paladin would, and he'll be taking harder hits / hits that take more of his limited HP.
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As for the message regarding cures during the pull and the regen, it's moreso about timing. Think of it this way:
There are three mobs in a group. A warrior is running towards them, and you have Regen on him. The warrior uses a Tomahawk on the first mob so that they all approach him, and prepares to use flash as soon as they are gathered.
-> Scenario A: You had a Regen on the tank. The Regen ticks after the Tomahawk went off, but before the Flash (Very possible since there is a GCD on tanks of about 2-2.5 seconds~.) You will not get threat from the mob he Tomahawked, but you WILL get threat from the mobs that were linked to it that he hadn't flashed yet. You'll still build threat on all 3 - but only the two he hadn't flashed yet will come towards you. This is why Regen during the pull is hard on some tanks, since they aren't quite good at timing their flash on the pass-by yet.
-> Scenario B: You had a regen on the ank. The regen ticks after his Flash went off. All three mobs will still be on the tank, and you'll be safe. This is because he used a hate-generating skill on all 3.
Let's take that same group of mobs and say that instead of Tomahawk, the tank runs straight in and Flashes or Overpowers the group.
-> Scenario A: The mobs will aggro the tank before his skill goes off, and ANY skill used before he manages to use his skill will pull the mobs off him.
Basically, it's mostly up to the tank to be able to use their skills to grab threat. Once you have the Tank-based abilities, you will find tanks hold threat a LOT better. At times, tanks in level synched content forget to put their Tank stance up during large pulls, and that can lead to some rougher times.
There's a few ways people can use Shroud*Quote:
-I mostly use Shroud for mana regen in boss fights or really big pulls because of the long cool-down, but is it worth it on regular trash pulls for keeping my enmity lower while I use my healing stick?
1. At around 60-80%. Keep in mind, that you keep recovering mana over time after using Shroud of Saints, so in some prolonged (boss) fights or longer pulls, using it earlier and continuing to heal will allow you a second/third use of it later on.
2. For threat if they know an add will spawn while things such as Medica II or regens are ticking. This one's a little more rare and speaks more to bad tanks who don't have snapthreat ready for an add. -
05-03-2016, 10:26 PMLineageRazor
As a general rule of thumb, watch the way your tank pulls. You'll see that the mobs' names are different colors depending on whether the tank has managed to get threat on them yet. Unclaimed mobs that are not yet on the attack will have yellow names. Once the first mob is grabbed, you'll see the name on that mob turn red. The other mobs that attack at the same time that one is pull will NOT turn red, but will darken slightly to a lightish orange color. Those are the mobs that are going to come gunning for you if you do any curing (including Regen).
A good tank will try to turn every mob red asap as they pull, but less experienced tanks may pull multiple packs without cementing hate on each group first. Those are the ones to watch out for, and hold back the regen.
Note that even for good tanks, there are cases where cementing hate right away isn't always practical. In Amdapor Keep, for example, high-level tanks like to pull a ton of mobs at once, since they are very weak compared to other level 50 dungeon mobs. At certain points in the dungeon, there are statues that animate when the tank gets close. These statues are spread out, so running to each and flashing takes quite a bit of time; many tanks, even experienced ones, will simply trigger them and keep running.
Lastly, if you DO get regen hate (or any kind of hate, really), the best thing to do is run right up to the tank. This will allow the tank to quickly pull the hate off of your with a Flash/Overpower/Unleash or two. Don't run away, or around in circles, as that just makes it harder for the tank to pull them off you - and it stops you from healing yourself and others at a time when it may be crucial. -
05-03-2016, 10:34 PMtinythinker
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Never noticed that name color change. I do recall names being red but not yellow. Good to know. Thank you. Will be very helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
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05-03-2016, 10:34 PMtinythinker
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Yeah I try.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
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05-03-2016, 10:37 PMtinythinkerToo long for me to requote and reply, but thank you very much. This and the name color change reply make the good advice already given even clearer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
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05-03-2016, 10:46 PMKerii
Eidolon summed up everything I would have said in a neat package.
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05-03-2016, 10:58 PMreiichi
Hi OP,
I didn't see anyone else mention it while skimming, but there are enmity bars that load in your party list if you select a monster. If you sort your party so it's easy to track (like say, you, other healers, tanks, DPS), you can easily check who has the highest enmity and who is close to stealing it. It's easy to glance at for boss fights, but for a large pack of monsters, less so. (So I'd say the next time you fight a boss, keep them selected for a moment and watch your party list get the little enmity bars when the tank pulls. You can see how a quick DPS attack fills it quickly at the beginning, but not as fast once the tank has established hate).
Hope this is helpful! When I first started, I struggled with regen on pulls and Titan as well! Got so many people to rage quit because I was on a controller and couldn't dodge the landslides. (Legacy camera saved my life) -
05-03-2016, 11:22 PMCrystalRainbow
Here is the work around....
Have you tried running up to the tank?
This means they may turn to you but the tank has time to toss out an AOE Enmity!
This results in you getting hit but tank quickly taking hate back without having to run after you.
Then you can go back to DPSing. -
05-04-2016, 12:54 AMEusisLandale
Didn't see it mentioned, but using Stoneskin at the end of a pull before moving on to the next can help considerably by just giving you more time on the next before you actually need to start healing. Swiftcasting another one when pulling multiple groups can potentially be preferable to an actual heal as well, as long as everything currently pulled has been clipped by the tank with something. There'll be some enmity generated for having done something, but still less than an actual heal.
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05-04-2016, 02:00 AMTriniplayer101
I'm just loving the fact that they're taking full advantage of the DPS aspect of their class (something a lot of healers find it hard to do), keep up the good work OP