Sometime, I really feel like I have not much to do in FFXIV. Instead of complaining about the lack of content, I usually take that time to play another game, and the last one is Black Desert Online.
After several hours, I realize one thing very different between those two games : damage is not displayed on-screen.
And it got me thinking...what if the same was applied to FFXIV ?
Every time someone suggested skill trees or special abilities on weapons and armor, the answer will always be "No, because people will always determine what's the best option, and will refuse anyone who doesn't follow that".
Problems are : first, the "best option" is always intended as "the more DPS option", and second, those people are actually far more restricting than the game itself. It's because of this that we had "Sorry, no PLD" in 3.0-3.1, despite the fact the job could bold well enough in every content.
But, if damage wasn't displayed, suddenly, you can't nail down this absolute best solution (Which is probably not always the "absolute" best, anyway...), and would give far more room to tests and experiences. Of course, we'd still have the potency of our skills, so the best rotation could still be theorized based on potency par second (Especially so, since they've confirmed that the potency/damage ratio is linear), and we'd also still have Stone Sky and Sea to train our rotation on a 3 minutes countdown.
What if damage numbers were not displayed ?
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04-28-2016, 09:30 PMReynhartWhat if damage numbers were not displayed ?
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04-28-2016, 09:50 PMGatzamus
In black desert, the devs did their best to prevent min-maxing by obscuring nearly everything relating to combat just so people can feel better about their casual special snowflake builds.
This game doesn't have build variety, and even if it did, it's far better to know exactly how much damage you're doing.
Limiting everyone's ability to optimize and min-max just because some shitters want to pretend like they're worth as much as those who use proper builds is ridiculous. -
04-28-2016, 10:01 PMAshelia_Ferron
The only thing not displaying numbers would do is prevent gear optimization.
Skills still have potency values, which is all one needs to calculate optimal rotations. That's why parsers have a "potency only" option so you can calculate PPS, not DPS.
So unless you mean you want to remove potency values from skill descriptions (which, would be stupid) then it wouldn't change anything -
04-28-2016, 10:02 PMxJimmehxYou can still min/max..Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatzamus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Theres always the battle log in the chat as well. I dont have a preference personally. I do think i would like to try playing this game with less HUD and immerse myself in the world a little more. I dont get the same feeling i would in a single player game. I dont really look at monsters. Too busy perfecting my DPS to make everything die fast to notice how pretty anything may or may not look. So i would be ok with this option. If it isnt already possible to hide pop up text. Ive actually been trying to learn to play with my hud off except for the party list and some macros for mounting/enabling hud components when needed. Even chat is hidden normally.(Fc is set to audio alert me.) XD -
04-28-2016, 10:05 PMReynhartNo, actually, it's not that important. This mentality is what creates insane situation like people requiring a Relic to invite you to Titan Hard mode back in 2.0, or asking a Gordian weapon to join a static in 3.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatzamus
You make it sound like proper build is miiiiiles away from other where the difference is minimal once you've obtained the highest ilvl you can. Secondary stats have so little impact compared to primary stats that we should have far more option to equip ourselves outside of "Crit + Det build only".Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatzamus
Actually, it's the exact opposite. You could work on your rotation all you want by calculating potencies, and it would be the same wether you want focus your gear on parry, skillspeed, Det or Crit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashelia_Ferron
No, actually, I'd remove damage even in the log. The idea is really to remove any way to see the damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by xJimmehx
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04-28-2016, 10:06 PMAshelia_Ferron
Also note that even if damage is not displayed, it's still calculated internally.
And since parsers go off internal data..... You change nothing except annoy non-parsing players since they can't even get a rough estimate of their damage -
04-28-2016, 10:10 PMAshelia_FerronSo wait, is this thread about gear or skills?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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04-28-2016, 10:14 PMReynhartIt's to remove the focus on gear since it really doesn't matter much as long as you have the highest ilvl you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashelia_Ferron
It seems to me that parsers used the log to follow numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashelia_Ferron
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04-28-2016, 10:18 PMxJimmehxAh, I would only be ok with hiding my damage from others(optionally) and pop up text tends to flood my screen so a option to toggle that would be cool too if it is not already in game.(I should look :P) Theres no reason to hide damage from yourself really. Unless your going to yell at yourself for not meeting your own goals.(lol) Though, I do understand why youd want to hide it from other people, and/or for immersion purposes if that is your thing as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Edit: Actually there is a reason to hide it from yourself. If you can see dragoon dps with a certain gearset while your a dragoon, then you no longer need to see others damage to know what theyll do with the same conditions/set on the same class.. so theres that. But This also requires you having identical rotations. Either way i dont support losing the ability to see my own damage. -
04-28-2016, 10:25 PMReynhartThe problem is that if they have a way of seeing their own damage, they'll still theorycraft exactly what is the best (And thus, only...) option, on their own. They'd still be able to determine the weight of each stats, post this on Arilaya, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by xJimmehx
This would be enough for everyone to bash you on the head on how such setup is better even if they just heard it from their elite friend...exactly like even non world-firsters were eager to jump on the "PLD sucks" wagon even though it made absolutely no meaningful difference for them. -
04-28-2016, 10:29 PMxJimmehx
Yeah. im not sure youll solve that particular problem even if you did hide damage. People single out classes in Black Desert too, even without the information on screen. It was a good idea though and I cant blame you for trying.
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04-28-2016, 10:37 PMReynhartYou mean classes between each other, or two players playing the same class ? (With the same player skill, of course.)Quote:
Originally Posted by xJimmehx
Here I feel that if you take two ilvl230 tanks of the same job, one of them stacking the most parry he can and the other following BiS, their damage output will not be that much different.
And if we want more options in future gear, we have to move away from this mentality. -
04-28-2016, 10:44 PMxJimmehx
In BDO there is certain gear that is BiS and theres classes that are considered best/worse by the community. Though i will admit, most of the arguing i see is more so towards the classes themselves rather than the gear. So maybe you are on to something. Im not really sure if that would stop the discrimination. I am sure however. That people will still be people and do people things and that includes war. For any reason, big or small. As long as there is something to fight about. If you start ripping things out of the game to fix that, They will nit pick something else until you take nearly everything out. You might as well just not have a game. Actually, There would be nothing left and they would still complain at that so what can you do? lol
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04-28-2016, 10:53 PMReynhartI'm still a new player at BDO (and mostly solo for now), so I've not yet followed any arguing.Quote:
Originally Posted by xJimmehx
Not neccesarily. Before 3.2, people argued about what main stat to chose for tanks. Now, it's out of the way, so they're back to deciding which secondary stat you chose. If you remove that, what will they nitpick about ? Jobs ? They can, and it's a balance issue that's not in their hands. Player skill ? They can and, in fact...they should, because skill is a real concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by xJimmehx
And player skill will not be taken out of content (Except main story :p), so they'll just focus on that forever, which is...kind of a good thing, if we want players to improve. -
04-28-2016, 11:23 PMxJimmehxIts not as bad as it is here, but it happens. That and jokes about donald trump in the shout chat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
You make some good points, but i would rather see the gear become similar in stats and remove min maxing than remove the damage information. Like final fantasy 12. You would not have multiple heavy armors per level with slightly different stats(it think it did but there werent many if i remember correctly). Instead you'd have 1 Heavy, 1 medium, and 1 light armor and just upgrade when you unlocked the next tier of item. I would like that better, and only have different ways to aquire that gear or multiples gears of the same stats for aesthetic preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
TL;DR make gear stats the same instead of removing the damage information maybe. That would seem better imo. I only really want glamour. -
04-28-2016, 11:25 PMGatzamusACT can also use information sent over the network.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Even if you couldn't see damage numbers, people would still come up with optimal rotations from potency and your situation of paladins being less desired wouldn't be solved at all.
People are free to require whatever they want for you to join their static. If it's an absurd requirement, then they would have a harder time filling positions and therefore would need to lower entry requirements or not have a static.
If you don't like that you can't meet the requirements of a group since they're of a different mindset that prefers min-maxing, perhaps you don't belong in that group. -
04-28-2016, 11:30 PMxJimmehxI think you can get banned for saying the name of a parser. Im not sure, but i heard a player who did a dragoon guide got banned for doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatzamus
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04-29-2016, 12:01 AMReynhartYes, you're right on that one, but as I said just ahead, it's become a balance issue between jobs, and not a gear choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatzamus
Optimal rotation is not dependant on gear. If you do twice my damage with your rotation, we really don't care if I'm doing 100 or 1000, just that, I should do twice that amount.
People are free to require what they want, the problem is that they, when 1000 DPS would be enough, they'll require 1500, and thus, prevent a lot of people from experiencing the content, and improving in doing the content. Knowing the optimal rotation is not that hard. Doing it while dealing with the mechanics, there's your real skill. But how can people with the mechanics if you prevent them from joining the content in the first place ? -
04-29-2016, 05:06 AMGarotte14
Wouldn't you have to remove health from the game? If you can see the mobs health, then you would know how much damage you did with an attack. Idk, don't play the other game.
I personally think it wouldn't matter. I've never actually seen anyone get turned down from trying out because of secondary stats. ilvl, yes but not min/maxing on gear. If my static required you to have an A8S weapon to tryout, it's more because we want to know that you have the skill to beat it, not how much damage you do.
Even then, if we were clearing a fight in say, 10 minutes, and had to replace a member. If we were then clearing in 11:30 minutes, we'd know his dmg was way lower. Point being, ppl will always find a way. -
04-29-2016, 05:30 AMReynhartYou don't see their health as number. You could determine that an attack will do x% of their life, but it wouldn't be significant on bosses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garotte14
Yeah, kinda. But, let's suppose this. You clear the fight in 10 minutes. Then you replace a member, and on your next try, you wipe at around 5 minutes because some members screw their mechanics. And then, you clear in 11m30. Would you remember exactly at what health percentage you were during the previous run at the 5 minute mark to determine that your new member is low on DPS ? And if you clear, even in 11m30, doesn't it mean that the overall DPS is still enough ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Garotte14
Besides, to lose 1m30 on the timer is far more that just a gear choice, so it's no really the issue we have with compulsive min-maxing :p