3.2 drk vs pld dps

3.26 at current who got the best DPS Drk or pld. Been playing dark souls 3 lost track of time

I say DRK.
Other will say PLD.

I quess there is a need of a high-testing here.

There is no need to test. DRK flat out wins by default in DPS if you know how to do both class at the same level.

In terms of raw numbers? Dark Knight wins by a landslide. Their DPS rotation has a higher average potency-per-GCD than PLD does, and their "DPS stance" (not really a stance, so much as a lack of tanking stance) gives them a pretty significant boost to their overall output. They're not going to top WAR in Deliverance, but neither can some DPS classes.

In the MT slot, DRK actually has the potential to beat out WAR for DPS, if it's played right, while also providing near-PLD levels of damage mitigation.

If you bring PLD as MT, you do so because they have the greatest capacity to mitigate spike damage and tankbusters, and not for their DPS output. If you bring them as OT, you do so because of their spot-healing ability with Clemency, Cover (which can help cheese certain mechanics and swaps), and Divine Veil (a group-wide 2500 HP shield can be extremely helpful), and not for their DPS output.

I have seem some data on the interwebs regarding tank parsing post 3.2 generally its WAR>DRK>PLD. Keep in mind though that dummy numbers will favor WARs (as they bring their own slashing debuff) and can only represent OT dps numbers. PLDs and DRKs damage potential go up in group content (assuming someone brings a slashing debuff). I think a good indicator would be the SSS dummies. There are calculators that ppl have created that can show you how much dps it takes for each class to clear them. Those numbers support the WAR>DRK>PLD OT hierarchy I spoke of. In MT slot DRK wins out in damage potential.

Also keep in mind that when MT, the difference in DPS output between the tanks is marginal now, such that no tank is really undesirable for the slot for its lack of DPS. OT is really where you see the biggest differences, and even that isn't entirely too severe.

DRK beats PLD when it comes to OT since most of DRK skills are Dark Art enhanced, Dots have scourge and Salted Earth. I once hit a 1200 or was it 1600 (don't remember the exact value) crit in WoD when trick attack was up and I use Dark Art+ Soul eater. Not to mention I haven't reset my DRK stat points to full VIT, since most of my points are in STR and 2 in PIE ( these are since my noob days and I always forgot to reset it).

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Also keep in mind that when MT, the difference in DPS output between the tanks is marginal now, such that no tank is really undesirable for the slot for its lack of DPS. OT is really where you see the biggest differences, and even that isn't entirely too severe.

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Very true. The meta will always have what it considers to be the "best" compositions, but I don't buy that there is any MT/OT composition that wont work. For all but the most serious progression players the dps differences will be of minor importance.

is skill speed waste on DRK? should DRK go for more Crt?

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Originally Posted by Anera

is skill speed waste on DRK? should DRK go for more Crt?

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Crit.

(Sks not a waste but crit is much better)

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

If you bring them as OT, you do so because of their spot-healing ability with Clemency

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After adjustments im using Clemency alot more when in OT duty(frequent tank swaps makes sure you will switch between MT and OT alot)and it allows SCH to pump more deeps for example as i can easily heal MT in safe range or even top him off if it crits for 10k+ Nowdays im finding myself constanty OOM due Clemecies and stance dance, also it would be nice if cleme didnt brake comboes but i can live without it.

I can honestly tell you that Clemency is at best mediocre. I am 100% certain that all high DPS PLDs (see fflogs) don't ever use that skill unless if there are downtimes or when 1 healer is down and you are forced to use it to recover. Or maybe if your healers are so bad. Other than that? PLD just dps away.

The reasons why PLD is "better" vs DRK in this current patch is because of safety (instead of more damage, in which DRK excels in) from stacking RoH and Monk's DK in 1 boss, Divine Veils and Hallowed Ground cheesing. Clemency has nothing to do with how much better PLD is atm, almost nonexistent if I might add.

If the argument is about Clemency enabling healers to do DPS more, it's bullshit. Why? Strong WHM = more DPS.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

In terms of raw numbers? Dark Knight wins by a landslide. Their DPS rotation has a higher average potency-per-GCD than PLD does, and their "DPS stance" (not really a stance, so much as a lack of tanking stance) gives them a pretty significant boost to their overall output. They're not going to top WAR in Deliverance, but neither can some DPS classes.

In the MT slot, DRK actually has the potential to beat out WAR for DPS, if it's played right, while also providing near-PLD levels of damage mitigation.

If you bring PLD as MT, you do so because they have the greatest capacity to mitigate spike damage and tankbusters, and not for their DPS output. If you bring them as OT, you do so because of their spot-healing ability with Clemency, Cover (which can help cheese certain mechanics and swaps), and Divine Veil (a group-wide 2500 HP shield can be extremely helpful), and not for their DPS output.

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No DPS class should ever lose to a WAR.

And the MT / OT definitions are irrelevant in A6S and A7S. I don't know about A8S since I'm not there yet. You bring a PLD because you want to bring a PLD. The strengths are exactly the same as they were pre 3.2. It's just that now, the content is a bit more favorable to PLDs and their DPS isn't as bad.

You bring them if the damage has a physical skew and/or Sheltron works well. You bring them if HG works well vs. the content. You bring them for DV.

Clemency did not become a relevant skill with the cast time reduction. Cover has some cute uses but it's still not really impactful utility.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

I can honestly tell you that Clemency is at best mediocre. I am 100% certain that all high DPS PLDs (see fflogs) don't ever use that skill unless if there are downtimes or when 1 healer is down and you are forced to use it to recover. Or maybe if your healers are so bad. Other than that? PLD just dps away.

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Well right. Clemency takes two GCDs to cast and does zero damage, while also preventing you from autoattacking. It follows naturally that the players who have maximized their DPS aren't going to use it, because it can represent a substantial DPS loss.

But damage output isn't everything.

It's true that progression groups will probably want to pump out as much damage as they can get, to avoid hard enrages. But groups who are dying to mechanics, or to DPS/healers taking avoidable damage can really be helped out by a Paladin throwing an extra Cure 1.5 out. Once a fight is on farm? Clemency loses its value. But while a group is still learning the fight, the extra spot heal can be really handy.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

The reasons why PLD is "better" vs DRK in this current patch is because of safety (instead of more damage, in which DRK excels in) from stacking RoH and Monk's DK in 1 boss, Divine Veils and Hallowed Ground cheesing. Clemency has nothing to do with how much better PLD is atm, almost nonexistent if I might add.

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I said nothing about which is better. For most groups, unless you're pushing progression really hard at extremely low gear levels, the difference isn't going to matter. All three tanks function in both roles.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

If the argument is about Clemency enabling healers to do DPS more, it's bullshit. Why? Strong WHM = more DPS.

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On this we agree. Clemency isn't going to do anything to help healers DPS more unless the PLD and healer(s) are in lock-step.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

No DPS class should ever lose to a WAR.

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In general, after 3.2, this is accurate. However, if it's a PUG learning party, you could get a WAR who seriously outgears someone. I've seen it a couple times. Fell Cleavus is real.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

And the MT / OT definitions are irrelevant in A6S and A7S. I don't know about A8S since I'm not there yet. You bring a PLD because you want to bring a PLD. The strengths are exactly the same as they were pre 3.2. It's just that now, the content is a bit more favorable to PLDs and their DPS isn't as bad.

You bring them if the damage has a physical skew and/or Sheltron works well. You bring them if HG works well vs. the content. You bring them for DV.

Clemency did not become a relevant skill with the cast time reduction. Cover has some cute uses but it's still not really impactful utility.

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Highlighting the important bit, because that's ultimately what it boils down to. We can argue about the hypothetical situational uses of various abilities until we're blue in the face and our fingers are bloody nubs, but it boils down to using whatever job you're most comfortable with. This tier has done a pretty good job of ensuring that, so long as you don't duplicate jobs, and so long as people know what they're doing, you're going to be able to succeed with almost any comp out there.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Well right. Clemency takes two GCDs to cast and does zero damage, while also preventing you from autoattacking. It follows naturally that the players who have maximized their DPS aren't going to use it, because it can represent a substantial DPS loss.

But damage output isn't everything.

It's true that progression groups will probably want to pump out as much damage as they can get, to avoid hard enrages. But groups who are dying to mechanics, or to DPS/healers taking avoidable damage can really be helped out by a Paladin throwing an extra Cure 1.5 out. Once a fight is on farm? Clemency loses its value. But while a group is still learning the fight, the extra spot heal can be really handy.

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No, not really. Healers have their own rotation. They have to quickly assess and budget their healing in response to a fight's damage intake. What they do is not really any different than what tanks do with their CD planning. You know what damage is coming. You know what tools you have to deal with it. The rest is about structuring an overall rotation to cover an entire fight while leaving enough of a margin of error.

So random spot healing does not really help because it's generally not needed. And, if it is needed, it's a sign you have bigger problems.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

In general, after 3.2, this is accurate. However, if it's a PUG learning party, you could get a WAR who seriously outgears someone. I've seen it a couple times. Fell Cleavus is real.

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I out DPS plenty of bad players. That has nothing to do with the classes themselves. That was the original statement. "They're not going to top WAR in Deliverance, but neither can some DPS classes."

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Highlighting the important bit, because that's ultimately what it boils down to. We can argue about the hypothetical situational uses of various abilities until we're blue in the face and our fingers are bloody nubs, but it boils down to using whatever job you're most comfortable with. This tier has done a pretty good job of ensuring that, so long as you don't duplicate jobs, and so long as people know what they're doing, you're going to be able to succeed with almost any comp out there.

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I don't know how you can interpret something so wrong. This tier is not easy enough that most groups can bring sub-optimal comps and still expect to clear at a reasonable pace. That much is evidenced by how low the clear rates still are. And, as is, PLD vs. DRK is still a discussion you need to have because they both have their strengths and weaknesses in the content. The gap between the two and the general difficulty of the content isn't at the point where your raid needs 4 more weeks of gear to carry a PLD through content but it still exists.

What I said was you bring a PLD if you need their strengths. Those strengths are better physical mitigation, Sheltron, HG and DV. Not clemency. Not cover. Nothing has really changed. It's just that now, both due to PLD DPS buffs and a shift in the focus of content, groups are not punished as hard for poor DPS.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

No, not really. Healers have their own rotation. They have to quickly assess and budget their healing in response to a fight's damage intake. What they do is not really any different than what tanks do with their CD planning. You know what damage is coming. You know what tools you have to deal with it. The rest is about structuring an overall rotation to cover an entire fight while leaving enough of a margin of error.

So random spot healing does not really help because it's generally not needed. And, if it is needed, it's a sign you have bigger problems.

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Did you not read what I said about its usefulness when learning? When a group takes more damage than they should, or the healers haven't figured out the pace, before they've established all of that, Clemency can absolutely help keep people up for longer, and help the group recover from someone's mistake. Yes, after a few runs most people should know what they can and can't do, and should know when they need to do what, and how to avoid damage. But if groups are still dying to mechanics and avoidable damage, Clemency can help to "idiot proof" the raid a little bit. The same goes for Cover, but I digress.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

I out DPS plenty of bad players. That has nothing to do with the classes themselves. That was the original statement.

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So...a bad player is not only someone who doesn't minmax their class, but also someone who has 5-10 iLvls less gear than you? Sorry if that's not what you're saying; I'm just trying to make sure I understand correctly.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

I don't know how you can interpret something so wrong. This tier is not easy enough that most groups can bring sub-optimal comps and still expect to clear at a reasonable pace. That much is evidenced by how low the clear rates still are. And, as is, PLD vs. DRK is still a discussion you need to have because they both have their strengths and weaknesses in the content. The gap between the two and the general difficulty of the content isn't at the point where your raid needs 4 more weeks of gear to carry a PLD through content but it still exists.

What I said was you bring a PLD if you need their strengths. Those strengths are better physical mitigation, Sheltron, HG and DV. Not clemency. Not cover.

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I'll disagree slightly, with an asterisk, as I haven't found a static yet. I still maintain that Clemency and Cover can be good while a group is still learning how to navigate a fight, but I will agree that they are more of a nice-to-have than a defining reason to pick PLD over DRK.

However, I do believe that the role-specific gear this tier is likely helping matters in terms of group comp. It's easier to jump between jobs now, and with the exception of the weapon (and any minmaxing in materia or divergent BiS), gearing one tank job gears them all. If someone has all three at 60, they can more easily switch to the tank that's more suited to a given fight.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Did you not read what I said about its usefulness when learning?

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And do you not understand how healing works? As a healer, you have outs. They are benediction, swift cast, tetra, assize, lustrate, indom, essential dignity, lightspeed, nocturnal aspected benefic, etc. All instant (though some have a slight animation delay). No content in this game is so demanding that Clemency will make any real difference in progression or otherwise.

There is a reason why everything but A8S has been solo healed or why there is so much room for healers to DPS. Healers are more than adequately equipped to deal with raid damage under normal circumstances. Under other circumstances -- like having vul stacks in A6S, having 2+ highwire stacks or suppuration stacks in A7S, etc. -- Clemency is not going to save anyone.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

So...a bad player is not only someone who doesn't minmax their class, but also someone who has 5-10 iLvls less gear than you? Sorry if that's not what you're saying; I'm just trying to make sure I understand correctly.

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What does a person's ilevel have to do with the design and balance of their class? DPS classes do more DPS than tank classes. Period.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I'll disagree slightly, with an asterisk, as I haven't found a static yet. I still maintain that Clemency and Cover can be good while a group is still learning how to navigate a fight, but I will agree that they are more of a nice-to-have than a defining reason to pick PLD over DRK.

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So you're basically saying that you actually can't support anything you've said? Okay.

This is why active raiders can't get along with people who have never stepped into any of the hardest contents (casuals, baddies alike).

Very often that active raiders are trying to explain things that usually is way closer to the truth, almost usually getting shut down by people who think they know what it is like inside the contents that encourage huge min-maxing.

"Why Plunge shouldn't be used as soon as possible" is still ongoing in that other thread. How sad is that? People have been providing facts and evidences and it still doesn't budge these people who think using Plunge as opener is good? I don't know about that.

As a matter of fact, Cover and Clemency is non-existent in almost all of the fights. Period. Clemency itself is very slow to recover when things go south. Put it to instacast and you have a case. Cover is niche at best. Not saying it's completely useless but you don't need that skill to clear whatever content for any reason whatsoever. Cover had its glory day. Remember when Cover into HG was a thing? Yeah, that's gone.

The last time I remember cover being a thing was in T12 for revelations and T13 if a melee dps had earthshaker.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

So random spot healing does not really help because it's generally not needed. And, if it is needed, it's a sign you have bigger problems.

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If its random then it will do nothing but if you coordinate it with healers you can say what TB's you are healing and what not, then they know when to stay in cleric even when TB is coming and when to turn it off and heal instead. Is this needed? ofc not but it makes PLD atleast slighlty more fun to play.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Snip.

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I'll stop debating it then and concede, since you're right; the fact is that I don't have savage raiding experience, either as a tank or as a healer. There have been times when Clemency has helped me help healers clean up in DF groups (random party members can take a surprising amount of damage in lower-tuned content, and I've had healers thank me for answering other players' inability to get out of damage), but I'm arguing hypotheticals against real experience here when I talk about savage. Just because I can see where it could potentially be useful doesn't mean it actually is.

I like Clemency. For dungeons, raids, trials.. if that's what you're using as a barometer for Clemency's value then it is non-essential. But it's a great self-heal for other content, imo.

I'd trade my (tank-stance required) SoulEater for Clemency in PVP or Unsync'd Solo Dungeons any day. >,>

edit: haven't PLD'd much since the tank stat change, has Clemency suffered from that?

DRK win's easily for sure. However we did this last week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5NupyOO0eU

As of now, I choose DRK over PLD because of the slight DPS gain, Reprisal, and most importantly, because I have the relic already for it. I was actually ready to get the best 230 PLD weapons, I'm at like 50/80 relic items or so, but I stopped when I realized that it probably wasn't worth it. A5S and A7S are the two fights in question when really considering going PLD over DRK, and A5S is too easy to even bother caring about, which leaves A7S.

I made the choice of Reprisal over Divine Veil because I would rather learn the timings of when to put Reprisal up and get that -10% damage mitigation across the series of Sparks than that one-time mitigation based on HP from Divine Veil. Considering that the tank buster is multiple physical attacks, and not just one, Sheltron's usefulness is greatly hindered. The final question was Bulwark + Hallowed Ground vs. Dark Dance + Living Dead + extra DPS.

I chose DRK, but that's not to say I'll keep choosing it come A9S onward. (Though it's still likely.)

for me I don't see a much difference on drk before 3.2 and now even with the Str=1 now is str/vit=.45/.45 (/=doesn't mean divide in this sentence.). but pld I do see a lot of difference from 3.2 str=1 then now str/vit=.45/.45 and the buffs. I see my self going a lot into sword oath now before I couldn't do it cuz mostly of agro and the damage was not worth it imo.

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

for me I don't see a much difference on drk before 3.2 and now even with the Str=1 now is str/vit=.45/.45 (/=doesn't mean divide in this sentence.). but pld I do see a lot of difference from 3.2 str=1 then now str/vit=.45/.45 and the buffs. I see my self going a lot into sword oath now before I couldn't do it cuz mostly of agro and the damage was not worth it imo.

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VIT was horrible to stack since they didn't give anything else aside from more HP. Not to mention the threshold for HP back then was really low too. Damage sure was worth it and if you spec-ed into almost full STR if not full already, you would be easily holding aggro from start to finish as PLD. Now it's changed and you kinda want to start with healthy lead as your enmity is gonna hit rock bottom when you switch to Sword Oath (or if you pull in SwO, you gotta cycle in a lot more Rage of Halones to maintain aggro).

Note: back in STR meta, you could get away with only 2 Rage of Halones with full STR, ninja's aggro buff and SwO pulling in A1S.

I would say DRK beat PLD in both OT and MT just because the higher potency skills and OGCDs.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

DRK win's easily for sure. However we did this last week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5NupyOO0eU

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Y u do dis.
And i can't even find good dps to simply clear that... .__.
Quess i will find myself 6 DRKs to just killd the thing.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Also keep in mind that when MT, the difference in DPS output between the tanks is marginal now, such that no tank is really undesirable for the slot for its lack of DPS. OT is really where you see the biggest differences, and even that isn't entirely too severe.

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It is pretty severe though, because of WARs. I love playing WAR in OT when a fight doesn't call for a swap or for the OT to pick up a mob. Being able to focus on DPS as a WAR in deliverance means putting out numbers that compete with melee DPS. DRKs aren't too far behind WAR because Blood Weapon is much better than Blood Price for getting mana off a single target, but PLD loses Shield Swipe procs and that means one less oGCD skill for PLDs, who are already sorely lacking oGCD damage skills.

OT WARs also have near unlimited TP; which is a massive plus for fights where it would matter.

Seph Ex is not a hard fight I really don't get people sometimes. Also better hide that Video from the dps before they cry for more tank needs lol

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Originally Posted by Destous

It is pretty severe though, because of WARs. I love playing WAR in OT when a fight doesn't call for a swap or for the OT to pick up a mob. Being able to focus on DPS as a WAR in deliverance means putting out numbers that compete with melee DPS. DRKs aren't too far behind WAR because Blood Weapon is much better than Blood Price for getting mana off a single target, but PLD loses Shield Swipe procs and that means one less oGCD skill for PLDs, who are already sorely lacking oGCD damage skills.

OT WARs also have near unlimited TP; which is a massive plus for fights where it would matter.

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Wars are not even closely competing with melee dps anymore if they are played at the same lv a war is easily 3 to 500 dps behind a melee, depending which melee you compare against

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Originally Posted by Shinzee

Wars are not even closely competing with melee dps anymore if they are played at the same lv a war is easily 3 to 500 dps behind a melee, depending which melee you compare against

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Pretty much, if same ilvl dps are competing with an OT warrior......slap your dps.

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

Y u do dis.
And i can't even find good dps to simply clear that... .__.
Quess i will find myself 6 DRKs to just killd the thing.

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Hahah. Well to be honest we wanted to do it with 7 DRKS too but it would't bring any real challenge as DRK would pulled it easier. The add phase alone is a big slap on the face because they die slow and slow = more heals = less mp = less dps etc. If you go on the same channel I posted the link, you can see us do 7 warrior seph and we killed it before the blow, before he respawns the adds, while on PLD we had about few seconds left for enrage XD. As a SCH I had to pull some dps but was well worth it. BUt yeah... most people can't clear it with a normal party, so the 7PLD's can do seph ex is a bit shame, but we did it only for fun and... yeah maybe just to slap some people's faces :P haha.

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Originally Posted by Ragnorak

Seph Ex is not a hard fight I really don't get people sometimes. Also better hide that Video from the dps before they cry for more tank needs lol

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Kinda too late for that. I've heard serval servers posted that video in their groups when they got enrage. Happened on my own server haha. Some guy got enrage couple of time with his group and one of them knows me and told them about me, wouldn't believe it till they saw the video, was pretty fun^^. I will however pull of more 7PLD man run in the future for sure and I can't wait! :D PLD need some more love!

I can hear the dps now "PLD shouldnt be able to do as much dps as me" ggz tho