Feedback: "Invincibility"

Hey guys, just a quick tidbit of feedback here concerning the buff "Invincibility" that is given to a spawning player.

I believe that this buff should fall off as soon as you leave the spawn area.

It seems cheesy to me that it is possible to pop sprint and run all the way back out to mid while still being invincible. I've had a handful of situations where the enemy team is able to have free reign for a few seconds while mine is unable to counter play, and vice versa.

Please let me know what you guys think of this buff, and how it should be changed, if at all.

Isn't the sue of any action supposed to end invincibility?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ragology

Isn't the sue of any action supposed to end invincibility?

---

If it does, it is not working as intended.

It needs strict dismissal from stat bar upon jumping down. If the enemy is in your base I consider the spawn as the regroup point. So there's no real point in having it endure outside that area. A good call out Renault.

At the least, it sohuld function like how raise invincbility works; it's not defined by a buff but it lasts for a brief period of time until you perform an action.

That said though, it doesn't feel too big of a game influence either (at least not enough to become something that disrupts the pacing of a game); we're looking at 2-3 seconds of uptime on someone that's already isolated from their party. Anymore and you're already at the point of coming into their side of the map (which should have risks associated with overextending). They already made you auto-res upon death too, so it's not necessarily something they can coordinate either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Snip

---

I can agree with your first point. I think invincibility should be removed when you perform an action, which I can confirm after testing that this is not it's current nature.

The second however, I don't. A healer can die, res, then sprint out and reach the middle of the map with 3 seconds of invincibility still left on their timer. This allows them to heal/cc/etc. without any chance at counter play. You may say "it's not too big of an influence" but not being able to control an enemy healer for anywhere between 1-10 seconds is huge.

That is why I am fine with it being 10 seconds in the spawn area, to prevent spawn camping, but it should absolutely be removed as soon as you hit the ground.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renault

I can agree with your first point. I think invincibility should be removed when you perform an action, which I can confirm after testing that this is not it's current nature.

The second however, I don't. A healer can die, res, then sprint out and reach the middle of the map with 3 seconds of invincibility still left on their timer. This allows them to heal/cc/etc. without any chance at counter play. You may say "it's not too big of an influence" but not being able to control an enemy healer for anywhere between 1-10 seconds is huge.

---

That's sort of the thing, you're looking at one GCD or 2 oGCDs in that period of time if they're running back into the fight in middle. If it's longer than 3~ seconds, you're more closer to their side and that that point, you're taking the risks associated with over extending into their territory.

Not to say that I haven't had moments where they would pull off a last minute oGCD heal on the tank as they were running back in, but you can't really counterplay against oGCDs in the first place unless they were in the range of your CCs (and for the most part, they aren't unless.) I agree that 10 seconds of a healer being invulnerable is huge, but 1~3 seconds isn't as much especially if it's related to oGCDs and close proximity to their side, if only because you can't attribute most of that happening because they were invulnerable.

Thinking back on it though, making the invulnerability be removed on action really doesn't make it much of a spawn-camp deterrence. Top off with the layout (specifically the stairs), staying on the spawn point isn't necessarily the best option for even the respawning team due to LoS.

I think the most I've ever had sprinting straight back to the middle was ~1 second of invincibility, and that itself is very iffy. Unless they are in your side of the map I really don't see this being as huge of a game changer as its being made out to be.

And most healers sprinting back are going to be using oGCDs or anything instant anyways to immediately top or try to top someone off. So unless the enemy is already on your bridge/side this isn't changing much. But I could have sworn it was supposed to cancel on action anyways. *shrug*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Snip

---

1 or 2 GCDs is nothing to be laughed at, it can more than easily save someones life or CC a key target to secure a clutch kill.

Your second point I agree with, it would really defeat the purpose of it in the first place. Honestly, I think making it go away when you leave the spawning area would be best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PotatoGirl

And most healers sprinting back are going to be using oGCDs or anything instant anyways to immediately top or try to top someone off. So unless the enemy is already on your bridge/side this isn't changing much. But I could have sworn it was supposed to cancel on action anyways. *shrug*

---

Only the invincibility you'd gain from accepting a raise/ressureciton is removed upon any action. Infact that particular invincibility has no buff associated with it. It's an entirely seperate mechanic from a direct invulnerbility buff, and you'd have this in PvE (although it doesn't prevent deaths from boundary fires/allagan fields)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PotatoGirl

Snip

---

Did some testing. You can make it from Spawn to the point where your bridge meets the middle arena with 3~4 seconds left, and hit the exact middle with 1~2 seconds left.

Again, this might not seem like much to some, but understand that 1-4 seconds spent in the middle with invincibility can very well turn the tides, and in my opinion this is just another gimmick I feel needs to be left out. I'll give some examples:

Ex 1: Healer1 dies, so Team2 decides to focus down Dps1 while Healer1 is dead. Respawns are instant more or less, so the healer is running back out as soon as they're up. Team2 tries to CC Healer1 as he arrives back at the middle, but they cannot because he still has a few seconds left of invincibility. Therefore, Healer1 is able to heal Dps1 uncontested, keeping him alive and denying Team2 an otherwise deserved kill.

Ex 2: Dps1 dies. Dps1 sprints to middle, gap closes to Healer2, and limit breaks. Dps1 cannot be interrupted by Team2 because he is still invincible for a second, which is literally enough time to limit break. Healer2 dies to LB and Dps1 gets a free kill because of invincibility.

I have seen example 1 happen in 80% of my matches (I am usually the one trying to CC the returning healer), and example 2 I have seen a small handful of times. There are other scenarios where this gimmick is, in my opinion, giving an unfair advantage to the losing team, but I feel these two examples get the point across clearly.

Again, I feel the need to reiterate: This is happening in the middle of the arena, not in the spawn areas. Another decent alternative would be to reduce the duration of the buff to 5 seconds, down from 10.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renault

Ex 1: Healer1 dies, so Team2 decides to focus down Dps1 while Healer1 is dead. Respawns are instant more or less, so the healer is running back out as soon as they're up. Team2 tries to CC Healer1 as he arrives back at the middle, but they cannot because he still has a few seconds left of invincibility. Therefore, Healer1 is able to heal Dps1 uncontested, keeping him alive and denying Team2 an otherwise deserved kill.

---

Honestly, if the other team is down a healer, another dps should dropping in that short amount of time unless your team is uncoordinated. Granted this is coming from my perspective as a dps so this is the case for me...when my tank and dps partner are on speed with the call outs anyway. If dps1 is alive for that long without a healer, I wouldn't say its deserved at that point.

As a side thought, there are also other things that make this more apparent than it needs to be, the removal of walls that obstruct the center of the arena and the removal of healing reduction debuff. The amount of power a GCD cast (whether it be heals, CC or blm dps) has in relation to how easy it is to get off is still a bit still high to leave it the way it is imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

SHOULD

---

I just quoted a key word here. You're absolutely right, you SHOULD be able to sweep up another kill. However...Respawns are nearly instant, and many classes have self heals. Also, you probably used your burst and much of your CC to kill the healer, and often those enemy DPS will have no issue simply running back towards their bridge to get those sweet, invincible heals.

As the game is currently, it is my belief that it is easier to run back to spawn and live than it is to chase down an enemy to secure a kill. I think a better balance would be:

Enemy makes it back over their side of the bridge, are now in range of spawning healer, can be healed and live.

NOT

Enemy makes it to "their half" of the middle arena, sprinting healer makes it back in time to heal them and make them live.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renault

I just quoted a key word here. You're absolutely right, you SHOULD be able to sweep up another kill. However...Respawns are nearly instant, and many classes have self heals. Also, you probably used your burst and much of your CC to kill the healer, and often those enemy DPS will have no issue simply running back towards their bridge to get those sweet, invincible heals.

---

When you quote a keyword, you should also point out the context behind it, too. The deaths should following suit if your damage is on track on focusing and following up. We're not talking about the healers instantly respawning (if respawn was instant, then you wouldn't be able to raise anyone) and being able to jump back into action, either; There's a 3 second timer for the actual return, followed by the raise animation, and then finally they can move. That's roughly 5 seconds of no outgoing healing.

You don't necessarily need burst damage or CC to kill people who aren't receiving any heals (nor can it be the case for the most part, because beyond oGCD bursts, they still have cooldowns active). Beyond recuperation, only BRD out of the ranged jobs actually have a form of self heal, and I don't believe DoMs have access to recuperate at all. I stick by my statement; if you can't kill a dps in that amount of time frame where they have no healer, it's probably not a "deserved" kill to begin with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renault

As the game is currently, it is my belief that it is easier to run back to spawn and live than it is to chase down an enemy to secure a kill. I think a better balance would be:

---

IMO, this should be the case. You've already lost momentum and pacing when you lose a healer, and at that point your focus should be minimizing loss. If the latter was more of the case, then we'd more likely see games being decided on the first death because it's that much harder to come back from it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Snip

---

I really think you're missing the point here. The point is not that the healer respawns, comes back, and heals. That's fine. The point/problem is that you cannot stop that healer from doing it. They are invincible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renault

I really think you're missing the point here. The point is not that the healer respawns, comes back, and heals. That's fine. The point/problem is that you cannot stop that healer from doing it. They are invincible.

---

The two are somewhat related. If you can include the quote you're reference, it'd help. Whenever you snip, I don't know what context you're referring to

I'm saying that from my viewpoint as a dps, the healers running back in to heal while having the respawn invincibility isn't too big of a problem because a healer death usually means another dps (generally the ranged one) is going to die in the span that it takes for a healer to respawn and get within the range of doing something (which generally includes having 1-3 seconds of invincibility). Unless it's concerning the tank, a healer coming back in with 1-3 of invincbility isn't long enough to be influential, because at that point, you've either regrouped (though this is usually because the other team didn't capitalize on the healer's death) or died.

It's at the point that I don't feel it's a good change to remove/lower the invincibility duration, which would in turn have lower anti-spawn camping deterrance. I've never had a game turn around or go south because of it, not unless my team was uncoordinated on a follow up. If we're talking about the concept (which might be what you're getting) that a healer can run into a fight and be invincbility, then I can agree that it's kind of a silly concept, but it still stems from their anti-camp measures; you can't influence one without the other.

For example, if we were to remove invulnerability on cast, it'd wreck scholars more than any other healers because they need to get their fairy up and aetherflow. If you lower the duration, you lower the effectiveness of fighting back when they are truly spawn camping you, and the layout of the team's base doesn't help in this regard. In a perfect world, where SE could design anything and not have bugs scome up as a result (let alone do this at all, since they have a nasty track record of doing small, bandage fixes that sometimes don't even address the problem), they'd remove the invulnerability after stepping onto the bridge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Snip

---

I snip because you insist on responding with multiple paragraphs every time you post. Also, you're arguing against a point I agreed is not the better of the solutions a few posts ago.

The duration should be reduced so that it falls off before you can reach the middle arena. Bottom line.

To all of this. I get your points Renault. But honestly how many times does it seriously have an effect on a match?

Lets assume everyone is dead center and stays there when the healer dies. No one moves and no one tries to focus down the range asap. In the time it takes to respawn, animation and actually sprint you say there are 3 seconds of potential invlun in the center. Now, once they start running the first thing they are probably going to do is use an instant cast where possible to get a critical heal the moment they are in range. How many people are actually able to capitalize on that healer at max range while dealing with their own shit currently going on? Honestly, you have to be prepared in advance for that healer to even stop that. Furthermore, the team down a healer should be moving back the second the healer dies anyways, this further limits the chances to even stop that healer from getting a crucial heal off invuln or not.


I really feel like this is a non issue and only in the most extreme cases is actually abused in some way. And this whole topic just screams of hypothetical situations to begin with :l

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PotatoGirl

To all of this. I get your points Renault. But honestly how many times does it seriously have an effect on a match?

---

Usually once per match, if not multiple times. I play a WHM, and therefore I aim to lock down my opponents with CC. I feel like you're saying it's a non issue because you don't really understand that it can literally decide a win or a loss, a kill or a...not kill.