Tank behavior in duties, brings lots of ???

I'm confused about tank behavior in duties. I like healing, but I have level, for example, gladiator to about 15 or so. I know Flash is used to generate the threat. But, a lot of times I am in duties and the gladiator won't use Flash. At all.

So, I limit my healing as much as I can, but always pull aggro and end up dying. Sometimes, people will say something about it, like, " Can you use flash more?"

The tank replies, "Sure." Then doesn't at all. But, when someone dies they run around the body spamming Flash and laughing.

Normally, I'd chock it up to poor luck of the draw. But, it's been well over a dozen times I've seen this kind of behavior or some variation of it.

So, my question is: Is there some kind of meta with how tanks perform their role in duties that I"m unaware of? Or, is it really just bad luck with random parties?

I've asked players on my server to do it as well, hoping to avoid that kind of situation. And the server-folk will often also only use their taunting skills after a player has died, running around their bodies and laughing, ultimately causing the group to abandon.

Man...a lot of these threads today, bad players are bad. Talk to them once, if they still cause trouble that's harassment and vote kick. Being super conservative with this topic is just the wrong way, if you tried reaching out to them once with the simple advice of "please use flash more" they respond in the affirmative but still troll you, give them the smelly boot, it's like the ninja in my pt, afk in between pulls for long periods, watch him as no animations for actions are triggered, he does move out of aoes which cause him to die. I talked to him twice, shame on me for being optimistic...no reply from the nin, swift boot man. Tolerance is only acceptable if change is made, enabling this is just silly.

I believe what you encountered is a common species of Tank called a troll.

I have to agree with the above suggestion. Give them one benefit of a doubt, then try to boot them. If that doesn't work, just leave the run quietly. The worst thing you can ever do with trolls, or jerks in general, is give them the time of day.

Flash???

Why Flash??? You just flash once and just kill them all. Flashing is a waste of GCD because it doesn't do damage and will decrease overall dps.

/sarcasm

Meh, each case of trolling can have different solutions.

Most trolls aren't original. As OP pointed out, it seems this happened to them more than once. It's happened to me as well.

I was on pugilist I think at the time? I was getting annoyed because tank would refuse to flash and healer was tanking everything. Healer was upset and tank was either doing by accident or trolling but he wouldn't flash. To appease the healer, I took it upon myself to switch a cross class skill for flash and boom, instant pugilist tank! Sure it's not effective but, hey, we finished the dungeon and the tank magically figured out how to flash shortly after. Stopping a troll without incident is easy enough if you can think of a way to make something not fun for them by doing something they don't expect. I don't have a way to divert most trolls but hey, this no-flash tank troll I have seen MANY times so I was prepared in that instance.

TL;DR >When you are a better troll than the trolling pug tank

I have met tanks that refused to flash/overpower, dps players that refuse to use skills that increase their damage for % and healers that stay om 95% mana and stand there the whole run. Some players are trolling, some are ignorant of their abilities and others are plain lazy.

There is sadly not much you can do about these players, you can educate them, but the players that are trolling or are lazy to use certain abilities will not listen to you. My advice just do the dungeon with them and move on, there are alot of these players, so expect alot of them in this game and other mmorpgs.

PS: Anyone else noticed that DF tanks dont use their defensive skills, DPS dont use their offensive buffs skills, unless they are fighting bosses, Bards never sing and healers never use any of their defensive skills or the one that increases spell speed, Healing power etc.

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Originally Posted by Olil

Sometimes, people will say something about it, like, " Can you use flash more?"

The tank replies, "Sure." Then doesn't at all.

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Then you kick them.

GLD is one of the easiest to do but not using your combo or flash is hell for a healer. If they dont heed basic advice I kick them. If you dont understand it you have no place tanking.

I'm a career tank and I can agree with seeing the troll tanks and the tanks that refuse to do the basics of their job. Trolls just boot and if boot fails leave. going after them gives them what they want. Attention. As for DF and people forgetting they have abilities or a rotation, I can see people want to just get thru it with as little effort as possible I can also see a Savage raider not wanting to go all out to a lesser skilled tank. There are lots of reasons. Just have fun, boot the jerks and remember why you play

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Originally Posted by Kerii

I have to agree with the above suggestion. Give them one benefit of a doubt, then try to boot them. If that doesn't work, just leave the run quietly. The worst thing you can ever do with trolls, or jerks in general, is give them the time of day.

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Originally Posted by WeekendSoja

Man...a lot of these threads today, bad players are bad. Talk to them once, if they still cause trouble that's harassment and vote kick.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Then you kick them.

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Originally Posted by Gimorian401

I'm a career tank and I can agree with seeing the troll tanks and the tanks that refuse to do the basics of their job. Trolls just boot and if boot fails leave.

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Please OP. Do not follow the advice given to you in this thread , a tank not using flash, a DPS not playing their rotation well or a healer not healing well is not a bootable offence. Abuse of the Vote Kick feature is something these people can then report you for and you end up getting in more bother than them.

If they are actually harrising your, AFK or Offline, go ahead and kick but poor play is not one of the options, nor is "I think they might be trolling"...

For those who suggest kick. That's a vote kick abuse. You cannot kick someone for not being skilled. That's terrible unfair and can be reported.

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Originally Posted by pikster

If they are actually harrising your, AFK or Offline, go ahead and kick but poor play is not one of the options, nor is "I think they might be trolling"...

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If they are asked to use a move, say they will, then they don't until someone dies, and then they spam said move over the dead body... that's harassment. Directly and purposely making the game worse for others, it doesn't get much more cut and dry than that. If a healer was asked to use cure, they said they will, then they just let the tank die, and then stand over the tank spamming cure on themselves... pretty obvious that it was intentionally done, right? Nobody is saying to just kick everyone you don't think is good, but when someone intentionally makes people die "for teh lulz" then yeah, they deserve a swift boot out of the dungeon. 9/10 a bad player will say "Sorry I'm really trying and just not getting it," or at least say something to convey that they aren't trolling. A troll will usually remain silent or say something along the lines of "Y u mad tho, bro?"

And to play devil's advocate, while I personally don't agree with it but I see the need to have a ruling on a grey area, almost any kick can be justified with "We had differing playstyles." GMs view that as an acceptable reason to vote dismiss.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

For those who suggest kick. That's a vote kick abuse. You cannot kick someone for not being skilled. That's terrible unfair and can be reported.

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Honest question to both of you: did you thoroughly read the OP's post? He described a tank that was purposely NOT using flash (after being asked to, and agreeing to use it) just to let people die so he could laugh and then spammed flash over their dead bodies. He did not describe a tank who didn't know what they were doing.

ETA- Just to add to my wall of text, the people who suggested kicking ALSO suggested to talk to the person in question before kicking them to determine if they are actually trying, and when referencing "bad players" they were obviously referring to trolls. Who are bad players.

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Originally Posted by pikster

Please OP. Do not follow the advice given to you in this thread , a tank not using flash, a DPS not playing their rotation well or a healer not healing well is not a bootable offence. Abuse of the Vote Kick feature is something these people can then report you for and you end up getting in more bother than them.

If they are actually harrising your, AFK or Offline, go ahead and kick but poor play is not one of the options, nor is "I think they might be trolling"...

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Originally Posted by Olil

The tank replies, "Sure." Then doesn't at all. But, when someone dies they run around the body spamming Flash and laughing.

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This is definitely not a lack of skill, nor confusion of role. This example is clearly someone whose sole purpose is to make someone else miserable and hence is fully deserving of the boot that his obnoxious arse should receive.

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Originally Posted by LadyVal

Honest question to both of you: did you thoroughly read the OP's post? He described a tank that was purposely NOT using flash just to let people die so he could laugh and then spammed flash over their dead bodies. He did not describe a tank who didn't know what they were doing.

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Yep! And even based on that, it doenst come under any factors in the Vote Kick Menu, this is not harrassment, this is trolling, sure, you could define this as harrassment of your time, but when we allow that we allow anyone who is new to a duty to be kicked from just about anything.

The literal definition of harassment is;

Aggressive pressure or intimidation:
I.e "they face daily harassment by the police"

Letting a party die and then using flash while laughing isn't aggressive, its not pressuring or intimidating. Its trolling yes but that player would have grounds to report any player kicking them for abuse.

Dont get me wrong here by the way, I am in no way condoning trolling, I absolutely despise them and I'm usually the first one to pipe up in a duty asking them to stop! BUT the current rule set does not allow for troll prevention, is that something that needs to change? Yes, absolutely. Does the current rule set give too much power to trolls? Yes!

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Originally Posted by pikster

-snip-

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Ah see that is the dictionary definition of harassment but in SE's ToS (which we all agree to to play the game so there's no getting around it) they state it as:

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Originally Posted by TOS

Disruptive behavior that negatively affects the experience of others or the service itself is strictly forbidden within FINAL FANTASY XIV.

Harassment
Our Definition of Harassment
The use of inappropriate and offensive language in general, or against another player is considered harassment in FINAL FANTASY XIV and is strictly prohibited. Using offensive language for character and retainer name, or spreading the inappropriate words in the character’s first and last names is also considered harassment. All claims of harassment are evaluated on a case by case basis and the action taken can be varied based upon the situation at that time. If harassment is found, the account penalty will be issued to all players who involve in the harassment.

•The use of language that is generally considered unacceptable in a public venue
•Any language that is purposely meant to harm or harass a third party
•Any language that promotes the discrimination of any race, nationality, religion, sexual orientation or gender

There may be inappropriate conduct that does not fit into any of the above categories that may be considered harassment and as such would constitute an actionable offense.

In accordance with our privacy and confidentiality policies, the GM will not inform the victim of any disciplinary action that was issued.

Inappropriate Behavior
Our Definition of Inappropriate Behavior
Disturbances that do not fall under the harassment category but are intended to prevent or hinder game play for others are considered inappropriate. Examples of inappropriate behavior are spam, gridlocking, and scam. FINAL FANTASY XIV respect individual player’s unique play style. However, GM may take action to players whose play style prevents other player’s game play.

3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers.

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So by the ToS standards, trolling is violating the ToS by interrupting someone else's game activity and enjoyment, and thus, is punishable by a GM, which common sense tells you, makes a valid vote kick option. Because nobody is obligated to put up with blatant harassment like name calling or passive harassment such as trolling and they have every right to remove someone from their instance for actively ruining their game experience.

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Originally Posted by LadyVal

So by the ToS standards, trolling is violating the ToS by interrupting someone else's game activity and enjoyment, and thus, is punishable by a GM, which common sense tells you, makes a valid vote kick option. Because nobody is obligated to put up with blatant harassment like name calling or passive harassment such as trolling and they have every right to remove someone from their instance for actively ruining their game experience.

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And while it's not included under "Harassment" but rather "Inappropriate Behavior", there is no votekick option of "Inappropriate Behavior", so it tends to get lumped together with harassment issues. In my eyes, trolling is still a form of bullying (i.e. harassment), except it's the kind where the bully then goes "ohnoes, is that what I was doing? I only meant it as a joke, I had no idea you got upset, I'm so sorrrrryyy...." and then continues to do the same after a short break. ¬_¬

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Originally Posted by pikster

Letting a party die and then using flash while laughing isn't aggressive, its not pressuring or intimidating. Its trolling yes but that player would have grounds to report any player kicking them for abuse.

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Yeah, because laughing at and mocking people is certainly not considered harassment/bullying.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

For those who suggest kick. That's a vote kick abuse. You cannot kick someone for not being skilled. That's terrible unfair and can be reported.

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You can by SE's standards. Difference of opinion regarding tactics. End of the story.

IIRC they said you can boot for play style differences. It falls under player disputes and they won't do anything about those.

They only take action for super obvious griefing.

Flash has a larger AOE on my Femroe than it does my lalafell. I think it scales with bust size.


Eh I just tested it. I think I just flash too early when I'm on a smaller character and that's what cuts into my range.

If someone is purposefully trolling you like in your example then Vote Kick. Leave if that doesn't work. I, personally, have never experienced anyone in any role do this kind of trolling but I am sure it happens (although likely a lot less than the hyperbole in this thread would make it out to be).

However, I find most people in these forums (including many in this thread) suggest kicking for what amounts to be just basic bad play. Not everyone has the same level of skill or is as experienced. Kicking someone because they do not meet some arbitrary standard is ridiculous and should lead those who do to re-evaluate what they think is important in life. The ugliness of this (and any elitist MMORPG) community is absurd. New or learning or casual players get met with so much hate by the elitists who should realize that a healthy MMO community REQUIRES these people to continue to thrive. No new blood = a dying game.

Furthermore, all the people who complain about tanks/dps/healers not listening to advice, have you given thought to how you are actually giving that advice? How many times have we seen someone make a mistake and the "advice" is given out like "dude, you suck, use flash more" or "OMG, WTF is wrong with you? Stay out of the aoe" etc. "Advice" like that does not do much to foster better dungeon experiences.

Maybe what you are suggesting is actually difficult for them. FF14 has some serious ability bloat and players learning their mechanics at the same time as their role can be challenged to keep everything up at the right time. Frankly, I have no idea how people play this game using a gamepad and am continually impressed that so many players are as good as they are when they need to rotate around 20 abilities in a single fight.

If you want perfect runs go run with your FC. If the elites (or think they're elites) insist on PuGs then leave your vitriol out of it. And if you find you are getting trolled a lot in dungeons think about examining how you start off interactions with these people. A lot of times people respond negatively when met with criticism, especially if it is unnecessarily rude.

I don't think it's fair to generalize all tanks as the same based on the behavior you've observed; as I and many others have never done this kind of thing. Just luck of the draw as to who you get and what their personalities are, and is most definitely not a "meta".

If they weren't using Flash, that's one thing. However, if they let you die and then ran around over your corpse spamming Flash to taunt you, that constitutes harassment, and actually is worthy of the vote kick. And the use of the report feature, too.

Sounds like you've just had some really shite luck, though. Also, if you've only done the first few instances, you can relax in that it should get better as you get higher in level. You can also try forming a party through the party finder, since a tank on your server is going to be much less likely to be a jerk than someone who knows they'll probably never see you again.

I'd offer to run a few things with you, but I'm not on Gilgamesh, alas.

Hasn't been too common for me, but it has happened. One time, the tank was very receptive. I just asked politely, "Do you have flash? I seem to be pulling a lot of hate." And he responded by saying that he was very nervous as he usually doesn't use DF and groups with his mates. After that, he was casting flash a-plenty. The other time I recall, the tank was called out by our blm for not using flash, and it turned into a battle of egos.

I've noticed that these kinds of things happen when someone who is an elitist high-level comes off very condescending to a new player. So the new player steps up to defend himself, and just gets ugly from there. The other time is when a clearly less experienced player sucks at their job, so they pass off the blame to everyone else telling them they don't know how to play theirs. Those usually result in swift kicks though.

I pretty much agree with everyone else that has said to just "Vote Kick" these people. Also OP, since you're on Gilgamesh, feel free to seek me out for dungeons and I'll help if I'm not busy. :)

If this ever happens which is rare even if there no reply I generally only heal the DPS and let the tank die usually that get there attention espically if I don't raise them either. Woops forgot I had a raise spell woops forgot you needed healed didn't realize you were part of the party. That if it a real situation of a very bad situation and isn't my first approach only used it as very last option.

See, here's the problem. And it IS a problem. If you lose a DPS, no one cares. They're dime a dozen, and easily replaced. If you lose a healer, it's a pain but give it 5 minutes or so and you'll be back on track. Lose a tank... well, you might as well just up and quit.

Tanks are the ephemeral unicorn. They're the fairies at the bottom of the garden. They're that four-leafed clover and that pot o' gold at the end of a rainbow. They're rare these days, and losing one, even an absolutely rubbish one, can ruin the entire experience. Having lost a tank, we waited nearly 30 minutes for a new arrival, and it never came. It would've been quicker to quit and regroup.

So for all those wonderful people saying to just boot the tank, think again. It's never quite that simple.

I had a Dank knight in amdapor normal who did not use any agro abilities so i was mage tank. and i was dpsing lightly. T_T

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Originally Posted by pikster

Please OP. Do not follow the advice given to you in this thread , a tank not using flash, a DPS not playing their rotation well or a healer not healing well is not a bootable offence. Abuse of the Vote Kick feature is something these people can then report you for and you end up getting in more bother than them.

If they are actually harrising your, AFK or Offline, go ahead and kick but poor play is not one of the options, nor is "I think they might be trolling"...

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

For those who suggest kick. That's a vote kick abuse. You cannot kick someone for not being skilled. That's terrible unfair and can be reported.

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Not it's not a reportable offense. 'Play style differences' is a legitimate reason to kick people.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

For those who suggest kick. That's a vote kick abuse. You cannot kick someone for not being skilled. That's terrible unfair and can be reported.

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Originally Posted by pikster

Please OP. Do not follow the advice given to you in this thread , a tank not using flash, a DPS not playing their rotation well or a healer not healing well is not a bootable offence. Abuse of the Vote Kick feature is something these people can then report you for and you end up getting in more bother than them.

If they are actually harrising your, AFK or Offline, go ahead and kick but poor play is not one of the options, nor is "I think they might be trolling"...

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http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg

And this wasn't the only response they gave. They have repeated several times on the forums and on some live letters regarding kicking for different play-styles.

Let's face it - if you kick someone for what the OP described, even if SE didn't "allow" it, he isn't going to get permanently banned for doing so. The tank wasn't doing his job, end of. He was hindering the duty. The OP is not going to get punished for removing him.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

See, here's the problem. And it IS a problem. If you lose a DPS, no one cares. They're dime a dozen, and easily replaced. If you lose a healer, it's a pain but give it 5 minutes or so and you'll be back on track. Lose a tank... well, you might as well just up and quit.

Tanks are the ephemeral unicorn. They're the fairies at the bottom of the garden. They're that four-leafed clover and that pot o' gold at the end of a rainbow. They're rare these days, and losing one, even an absolutely rubbish one, can ruin the entire experience. Having lost a tank, we waited nearly 30 minutes for a new arrival, and it never came. It would've been quicker to quit and regroup.

So for all those wonderful people saying to just boot the tank, think again. It's never quite that simple.

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None of you had friends that would join? That kind of sucks, I get asked to help finish instances occasionally and have had to ask for help myself. Waiting 30 minutes sounds miserable...

Honestly it was the trolling and lack of skill with tanks is what caused me to take it back up in the first place. I think one reason some tanks are so willing to troll is because they know, for some part, that the DPS would not dare kick them for fear of not getting a replacement and going back to waiting outside. So they go on having fun, playing poorly because they feel they are safe. Fresh content you seem to see a lot less trolling because tanks are abundant and wait times are low but once the masses split for that patch your back at the mercy of them. I could be wrong but just my analysis of it.

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Originally Posted by Olil

I'm confused about tank behavior in duties. I like healing, but I have level, for example, gladiator to about 15 or so. I know Flash is used to generate the threat. But, a lot of times I am in duties and the gladiator won't use Flash. At all.

So, I limit my healing as much as I can, but always pull aggro and end up dying. Sometimes, people will say something about it, like, " Can you use flash more?"

The tank replies, "Sure." Then doesn't at all. But, when someone dies they run around the body spamming Flash and laughing.

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Etc etc etc. Character limit.

In your case, just try to kick him (harassment). If that fails for some reason, just drop. Don't give the prick the satisfaction. Otherwise,.... maybe try that auto-translate in your chat box? Maybe there's a <Please use: Flash> command in there or something like that (only used auto-translate once, so not sure on this one). That way there's no language barrier in the way.

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Originally Posted by pikster

Please OP. Do not follow the advice given to you in this thread , a tank not using flash, a DPS not playing their rotation well or a healer not healing well is not a bootable offence. Abuse of the Vote Kick feature is something these people can then report you for and you end up getting in more bother than them.

If they are actually harrising your, AFK or Offline, go ahead and kick but poor play is not one of the options, nor is "I think they might be trolling"...

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I miss spoke. I meant more of trolling and abusive behavior, not a lack of skill. People need to learn the role and to do that they need to play. A tank not using Flash you shouldn't boot him. A tank not using Flash, suggested to do so, saying yes to it then not doing so to watch a party member die and then use flash over the dead party member that is harassment.

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Originally Posted by SecretCrowds

http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg

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You just pwned everyone who said that kicking the tank wasn't ok!!!! The best post in the thread award goes to you! +1000 internetz to you! (Also thanks for the laugh! I appreciate it very much. :D )

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

See, here's the problem. And it IS a problem. If you lose a DPS, no one cares. They're dime a dozen, and easily replaced. If you lose a healer, it's a pain but give it 5 minutes or so and you'll be back on track. Lose a tank... well, you might as well just up and quit.

Tanks are the ephemeral unicorn. They're the fairies at the bottom of the garden. They're that four-leafed clover and that pot o' gold at the end of a rainbow. They're rare these days, and losing one, even an absolutely rubbish one, can ruin the entire experience. Having lost a tank, we waited nearly 30 minutes for a new arrival, and it never came. It would've been quicker to quit and regroup.

So for all those wonderful people saying to just boot the tank, think again. It's never quite that simple.

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Personally, I'd still kick them out. I'd rather attempt the rest of the dungeon without the tank than give that person the satisfaction of irritating the party.