Hey everyone, my name is King Stefan from Balmung, Aether DC and I want to make a series of threads that cover the entire scope of my feedback for The Feast: Season 1. I'm going to be dividing my threads up by their topics, to give more concise and organized feedback so hopefully it can hit back to SE. My slight background: I have 800 matches played in The Feast and recently hit Gold today in Solo Queue. I main WHM and AST, so my point of view will be coming from that of a healer, though I feel like I have a good general understanding on the game and how it is, and perhaps should, be played. Now that introductions are out of the way...
Let me preface this feedback by saying I could very well be wrong, these are just my opinions. I will start this post off with a tier list, which is placing each class in a tier of viability for SOLO QUEUE MATCHES. I have not played Light Party post-patch, so I cannot give feedback.
S-Tier: Monk, White Mage, Machinist
A-Tier: Warrior, Astrologian, Scholar, Dragoon, Bard
B-Tier: Summoner, Paladin, Ninja
C-Tier: Dark Knight
WTF-Tier: Black Mage
S-Tier Reasoning: These jobs just do it all, and they do it the best.
- Monk has the highest sustained damage from all the melee, has the highest survivability, and has on demand burst.
- White Mage has Sacred Prism and Repose, alongside the highest healing output in the game. Need I say more? They have the strongest healing CD by far and also their own win condition
- Machinist is an absolute, unbalanced, monster. The amount of instant-cast damage it can put out is eclipsed by no class, and they can do it frequently. They don't need the DOT setup like bar, OR the cast time of Empyreal Arrow. Throw in hyper charge and BTE? OP.
A-Tier Reasoning: These jobs fulfill their roles very well. They go well with the meta, but are not overpowered like the S-tier jobs. These jobs are balanced and powerful.
B-Tier Reasoning: These jobs fulfill their roles adequately, however they lack the potential to carry a team by themselves when compared to their higher placed counterparts. What they do well, others can do better...Or in Paladins case, is just too reliant on a team to shine in Solo Queue.
C-Tier Reasoning: Dark Knight still does less burst than a WAR, mitigates and controls less than a Paladin. The new changes allows it to really shut down the burst of the enemy team, but it requires an AOE situation to really be super effective and overall I believe is just worse than the other two choices in every scenario.
Black Mage: It got it's own tier, and that's because BLM is either the worst or the best job in the game when it comes to PVP. You have the potential to be an absolutely worthless meat shield (common), or a CC demon with the destructive force of a fire tornado (there's like 2 people). The job is extremely challenging to play effectively, and it also requires your team members to not mess up your CC chains. I cannot place it low in good conscience because I know it have massive potential, but I've yet to see ANY of them succeed, nor do I think they will ever, on the NA Data Center.
Suggestions:
White Mage - Change Sacred Prism. It pains me to say this, as someone who has most of their matches played on WHM, but this needs to be changed. I would cut the duration, from 30s to 20s. I feel that it is a start and still allows the spell to have an impact.
Machinist - Straight up nerfs to potency in PVP. They just do absurd damage. Give them the summoner treatment.
Monk - This one is tough, because honestly even a small change could ruin the job. Reverting the buff to somersault is a good start, though, or remove its spell speed reduction. I'd also suggest the removal of fists of earth in PVP, as it creates a super obvious advantage for no tradeoff (as they have the highest damage an survivability).
Dark Knight - The need SOMETHING. What they have is lower burst than warrior, and worse utility than BOTH other tank jobs. A start, IMO, would be to have Tar Pit shield yourself AND nearby teammates.
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04-19-2016, 07:38 AMRenaultFeedback: Class Balance in The Feast 4v4 (Tier List Included)
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04-19-2016, 08:21 AMSaveTheSunF1R3x
Imo i think sch and nin should be swapped. As much as i love sch it does still have some faults that i wouldn't quite consider it A tier (concerning soloq). All the top nins on my DC are pretty damn good and seem to hold their own quite well. They've definitely shown me their potential.
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04-19-2016, 08:40 AMRenaultCould you state your reasons for those opinions, other than just that you have those opinions?Quote:
Originally Posted by SaveTheSunF1R3x
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04-19-2016, 09:06 AMxTysonx
I'll have to disagree with nerfing MCH dmg and will echo the words rice said in this >post<
The lack of defensive skills/self-heals makes your avg MCH a literal "glass cannon", meaning you are VERY healer dependent if you get focused as well as kiting without ammo procs or GB is a loss to dps. The only things MCH has to defend itself (stun/slow/bind) is easily bypassed on a fetter ward, blank kb is easily countered by drg jump/mnk dash/ninja tele while Stun Gun has very long CD. Wildfire can also be purified , a big chunk of dmg lost while the single target bust gets nulled by a good healer.
There are only a handful of MCH I'd consider playing the class excellently (on primal at least), and to be fair I still see more SMN/BLM. But frankly if it was as bad as it seems we'd see more threads about it. Outside of an excellent burst, the ammo procs are the only thing you can count on and those don't bring much to the table since both brd/mch lost their interruption roles.
If you give MCH the nerf hammer, you might as well bring BRD back down with it since they rock similar boats, just different solutions to the same problem. -
04-19-2016, 09:17 AMRiceisNice
As I mentioned in another tier thread, everything should be looked comparatively to their peers (melee to melee, ranged to ranged, etc etc) because you can't take a ranged dps over a melee dps with the forced team compositions.
That being said though,
As it stands now, MNK has the capacity to desync burst from both melee and casters (to an extent) through pacification and spell speed (which doesn't work on oGCDs), especially when it comes to butting heads at the start of a match. To be fair though, all melees are relatively on close terms with each other (excluding things like ninja stealthing with heavy medal) but small things like reverting somersault would tone them down a bit, especially when their biggest weakness attributed to their dps is maintaining uptime...which is rendered entirely moot when GL has a duration of 28 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
IMO, only repose really needs a change in lowered reduction. Sacred Prism is stationary and can be removed by skills such as OIP, retrogradiation and the like. Their healing output comes from cast times (which is a separate issue) and it starts to dwindle when they come under fire. However, I won't argue their placement compared to the other two healers; their CC and self-preservation is just too good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
I would like your explanation in this, especially in regards to them already nerfing BtE when they previously have less survivability and arguably less utility compared to BRD/SMN. They don't have a DoT setup, but they do have proc setup to prepare hot shot and clean shot+reassemble. The cast time on empyreal (like every other cast time, especially in regards to the adjusted arena) really isn't much of a hinderance when it's <1.5 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
If we're doing a direct comparison, we're looking at BtE, GR, ricochet, cleanshot+reassemble (450+200+300*+350~=1300~) compared to Empyreal Barrage, far shot, bloodletter, sidewinder(660+240+150+275=1325). They're not that far off until you factor in debuffs (and hypercharge is on 120 seconds, so it's not going to line up unless you want to delay your burst, which at that point it's not as frequent as you're saying). Empyreal can't crit, but the other skills can, and BRD gets a 20% crit chance just from themselves (internal release and straight shot) And the other thing with ricochet is that it's potency can be diluted if they're grouped, which includes egis, faires, or even supply crates. There's much more conventional counterplays to MCH's burst (grouping to dilute ricochet's damage for example) and they still have to set up with weaponskills before hand (whereas BRD's can be cleansed, but beyond the burst that can also be a healer pressure because more DoTs means more bloodletter procs)
At the least, I wouldn't pass them off to the point of being OP relative to their peers (SMN and BRD), especially when you look at SMN's AoE bind options and BRD's paeon, longer duration bind, and arguably better sustain/pressure outside of bursts.
The point of a tier list is to discuss the potential, with player still not being a factor in their placing. That being said, in relation to interrupt changes and the removal of LoS walls, BLMs have absolutely so much power to not leave them alone, but at the same time you can't do the same to the enemy WHM who can easily heal up damage dealt (as mentioned above). Even with the adjustments to sleep, the first DR is still a bit too long for something like feast (same for repose)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
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04-19-2016, 09:45 AMRenault1: You don't understand how Prism works.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
It's a placed AOE that cannot be removed like a debuff. Also, WHM gets most of their healing done through preparing HOTs, not from casting. Repose doesn't need to be changed, as the nerf has already made it much more difficult to use than before.
2: How can you discount Hypercharge? That's an absurd way of thinking..."Oh, my 10% damage increase doesn't count!" It absolutely counts. Not only for you, but for your melee and tank as well! Also, you can SPOT the bard burst incoming, you cannot spot the MCH burst incoming. If I have both bard dots on me, I know I am in trouble and can LOS. You cannot say the same for a MCH.
3: When it comes to black mage, I gave it a comedic tier because it simply cannot be placed currently in the NA meta. In my opinion. Your reasoning you gave following your disagreement is poorly based and untrue. You cannot leave BLM alone, true, but if you're being focused you are essentially useless. You are a hunk of meat that absorbed damage. This makes the game a 3.5v4, as your team is not free to do stuff, but you're down and effective player. I'm not really sure what else to say, because even a WHM free casting cannot heal through the burst of three other players. In over 800 games played, I can say I have never once lost a match because of an enemy black mages, but I have lost 90%+ of the games I have a BLM on my team. I think the difficulty of the effective use of a job absolutely needs to be considered in a tier list. -
04-19-2016, 10:16 AMxTysonxA BRD only need 2 dots to make full use of Sidewinder, that doesn't mean hes going to use it or that the triple empy arrow from out of nowhere, for all you know you could just be a dot sponge to give him more bloodletter. A MCH turret glows a noticeably bright neon green and gives a unique phy up (different icon/text compared to ninjas vuln up) meaning you need to break LoS quickly unless you want 30s of taking free dmg (hypercharge is a valuable cd and most mch wont desummon it early for a chase). Wildfire is also a good indicator that you're a target for a burst as well, meaning you disable him, break LoS, prep heals to take the hits or just purify it off so he wont get a free 4-6k.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
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04-19-2016, 10:17 AMRiceisNiceThe AoE on the ground is present because of a buff. Much like shadowflare, sacred soil, and such. Regen also doesn't help against focus fire. It helps against damage that's spread apart, but being able to get cure II off undoes a lot of incoming damage, espesically since they removed the healing debuff reduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
Also the nerf made it "more difficult to use"? It's execution is the same.
You can predict it just as much as a BRD burst because they're both going to be using cooldowns. A burst without cooldowns like raging strikes and hawkeye is a huge damage loss and you more than likely will not be killing anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
I didn't discount hypercharge's debuff for their damage,
But in context, it's not going to stack with full swing (which is stronger and is a given because of tanks), which is more than likely going to be coordinated for a burst. You could say that you won't be able to predict whois going to be burst, but in all consideration, all 3 melees have fetter ward which means they're going to be out of the question, leaving the ranged and healer. You could wait it off, but at that point you're not getting the first hit and most likely lose momentum over the middle arena.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Not to mention a BRD is going to be applying DoTs on everyone anyway for bloodletter. It's going to be just as predictable on whose going to get hit when a tank or melee comes up to your face.
I already pointed this out in the very same post you quoted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilla
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04-19-2016, 10:49 AMExiraYou must be kidding right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilla
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04-19-2016, 10:51 AMRenault1: Repose is now more difficult to use because the duration is halved, meaning it has half the effectiveness. You have to make tougher decision and use it at key moments, as the duration is halved. So you half the time of sleep. It's cut in half.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
2: You don't understand what I mean when I say "see the burst coming". EX: Bard can only burst when dots are up. DRG burst is inc when you see Vorpal thrust. Warrior burst is inc at 5 stacks of abandon. Just because a MCH has their buffs up, that burst could come, on ANY target, in a 20+ second period. That is not "seeing it coming". -
04-19-2016, 10:53 AMExiraTo add to this barrage is a DEAD giveaway that the burst is coming and many people watch for it Im noticing. MCH doesn't have the dead giveaway that BRD does. They both have to pop buffs but so does everyone. I'm not sure what to do about balance but you can't deny that MCH burst is way harder to predictQuote:
Originally Posted by Renault
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04-19-2016, 11:10 AMRiceisNiceWhich doesn't make it more difficult to use, but lowering it's effectiveness. Nothing's changed because you didn't want to waste sleep DRs before or after the change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
Cleaner shot has a 10 second duration (and is a buff no less which can get knocked off by OIP and similar abilities) , along side the cooldowns and reassemble (at which point they're committed to using clean shot). Likewise with warrior, 5 stacks of abandon doesn't mean a burst is coming in, that's normally paired with both full swing and berserk, at least if their intention is to floor someone.
MCH needs to line up clean shot and pop reassemble (which commits them to using that clean shot), and the clean shot proc itself only has a 10 second duration, after which you'd have to use slug shot (and chances are, it's a hard cast or instant cast without GB)Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
Between having cleaner shot ready, cooldowns up, and reassemble active, what more of an indication do you want? You're saying barrage is a dead giveaway, cleaner shot is just as much when you're lookin at other cooldowns being paired and reassemble. On top of that, ricochet still gets it's damage diluted by 100 potency at the minimum for 1 target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
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04-19-2016, 11:12 AMRenaultAnd that's just it. I do not mind bards as much, even though they have the potential to 100-0, because I can ANTICIPATE it and PREPARE. This game's net code is not kind to reactions, as if you are a reactionary player, you are going to die 99% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
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04-19-2016, 11:13 AMExiraCleaner shot is still not barrage or as good of an indication.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
I guess the real question is why arent you ranked in your data center if you seem to have such extensive pvp knowledge and seemingly dispute every single opinion posted on these forums? -
04-19-2016, 11:18 AMRenaultThis statement is simply incorrect. Before, you could throw out sleeps and not really have to think about the timing or the window of CC and pressure you'd be putting on the enemy team. Now, that is a huge factor when using Repose. I'm really unsure how you can argue against this. It's like...you hit a dart board around the outer ring before, but now you have to hit a bullseye. Does that make sense to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Also, to your MCH point. Clean shot is not a good indication of when a MCH can burst, as the bulk of their damage does not come from clean shot. You can still 100-0 someone even without clean shot in your burst at all. -
04-19-2016, 10:39 PMRiceisNiceI get what you're saying, but running with your dart example, it's not harder to get a bullseye, which really is why repose/sleep is so devastating. A misplaced sleep is going to get cleansed or counter-played with a well-timed purify regardless of it's original duration, and a well placed sleep has a shorter duration (and even 4 seconds is still quite a long time in PvP) but is still nonetheless influential. You even mentioned it briefly, the timing of when the CC comes out is important to be something you can capitalize on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
A reassembled Cleaner shot is their second highest potency attack at roughly 345~ potency, only behind BtE (and an undiluted ricochet assuming it crits). If that's really the case, then you might as well leave out sidewinder for BRD so they don't need both DoTs on you, and at that point their burst is stronger than MCH assuming nothing crits (which in going by your example, its going to 100-0 you just as easily). And even riding on what is a good indication or not, any competent bard would give you a 2~ second window of reaction on when a empyreal barrage is going to happen between using barrage and casting empyreal arrow right after, which is about the same timeframe it takes for a MCH to throw out four oGCDs (bind>BtE>Ricochet>GR)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
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04-19-2016, 11:44 PMRenaultI stopped reading here. If you think this way, then there is no reasoning with you. You do not play White Mage, and you are not even in the top 100 players on your Data Center. I was not going to question your credibility, because I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but this right here just goes to show you mean only to argue without basis. I am not here to argue on the internet, I'm here to discuss the game mode with people and take viewpoints of different changes that could/should happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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04-20-2016, 12:23 AMRiceisNiceLikewise to you since you somehow still insist that mch is op'd in the current state. But I acknowledged your perspective and posted why I don't think it's the case, while you straight up said "stopped reading" without trying to come to an understanding from my perspective. Honestly why even make the topic if you're not going to consider the otherside of the argument and make up your own points (like how you can see empyreal barrage when a bard can just cast it right after using barrage).Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
You of all people should understand this, as you even made a post yourself in this regard.
Even right now the rankings are hard to take for face value because of how the matches are set up, especially when it ultimately boils down to matches play and win percentages (and in the case of solo, this is an entirely big mess to take for face-value)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
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04-20-2016, 06:13 AMProudwolf
Renault.....Rice post all the time on the pvp forums and the things Rice post has never came off as trolling or arguing for arguing. Hell I've managed to up my MCH game thanks to a couple of their tips. BTW MCH opening burst and burst overall can be easily countered by guess who the BLM or WHM you should set the MCH to focus target and look out for rapid fire and other buffs to be popped (pay real attention to rapid fire though) as soon as you do sleep/ repose the shit out of them. It's the equivalent of blue balls for us. If you don't have either class LoS them to delay the amount of shots they get off in rapid fires duration. I feel like everytime someone says "X class is op" it's more because the players do not understand how to counter it. Also if they use wildfire on you or someone else.....I really shouldn't have to explain what's next.
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04-20-2016, 10:09 AMRenaultI was open to your point of view, that's why we had a discussion. In the end, I still stick with how I originally thought, I do not agree with you, and I think that is okay. You believe what you wish, but I believe my own opinions to still be true.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Also, I'll say again, I simply cannot 'take your word for it' because I just don't see you as a credible source when it comes to Machinists. You clearly do not participate in PVP, and the rankings are pretty solid for measuring a player's skill, as if you're near the top, you're pretty damn good at consistently carrying your team. -
04-20-2016, 11:11 AMRiceisNiceI played extensively during pre-season (and honestly, not much has changed specifically for MCH). We don't share data centers so you wouldn't have run into me. On top of that, the way ranking is right now isn't a very good measurement of individual skill because of how the queues work. Even from a carry perspective, there's only so much a good DPS can do compared to a healer (especially a WHM), though it's a bit more on melees now because of the LB changes. Though if anything, I haven't played much since season 1, mostly because I'm not interested in it since it really boils down to amount of games playedQuote:
Originally Posted by Renault
I can say the same with your input on MCH because a lot of the input you have on it simply isn't valid(or at the very least, plenty of confirmation bias, such as BRDs being predictable with barrage), even if it is coming from the perspective of a WHM, but that's why I'm putting out my perspective as a MCH so you'd get an idea.
But if having a record is that important than you, then the best I can do is try to dig up my solo win rates during pre-season after the first reset (which was through puush).