A few friends have mentioned that Dragoon and Astro are the two jobs that require the least amount of skill to use and other Jobs such as Black Mage and Scholar require a lot of skill to master correctly.
Do you feel there are jobs that "Noob proof" and require very little skill to use?
If so which roles do you think excel the most? Which do you think tier the lowest?
Do you think Skill matters more than Job?
Skill vs Job
Printable View
-
04-17-2016, 10:06 AMVejjiegirlSkill vs Job
-
04-17-2016, 10:28 AMRenault
I'm bored, so I'll give this a go. I am going to list the jobs per role in an order from Easiest > Hardest, speaking in terms of their skill floors (How accessible they are to newer players)
Healer: AST > SCH > WHM
Tank: WAR > PLD > DRK
MDPS: DRG > MNK > NIN
RDPS: SMN > MCH > BRD > BLM
Now I will list them in an order which I think they are the easiest to CARRY on, meaning a decently skilled player will find more success in playing the job (In Solo Queue):
Healer: WHM > AST > SCH
Tank: WAR > PLD > DRK
MDPS: MNK > DRG > NIN
RDPS: MCH > BRD > SMN > BLM
Feel free to disagree or ask why I have these opinions. I know it's generally basic. -
04-17-2016, 11:33 AMDimitriiI actually agree with all of this in terms of easiest to hardest save for whm and sch. I'd flip those two as its harder to maintain successful runs as sch than whm. Whm has so much going for it its not even funny with all the cc, aoe regen, regen, aoe heals, sacred prism, benediction, tetra, blah, blah, blah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
-
04-17-2016, 11:36 AMDxWingsI pretty much agree with this with the exception of WAR>PLD. I feel it should be the other way around. PLD>WARQuote:
Originally Posted by Renault
While WAR brings a tanky dps to the table to scare healers or make rDPS run around a little more than they are already doing, it has less utilities to protect your team compared to PLD. And that's a major game changer in my opinion.
Because if you can't kill anyone on a WAR or even assist more than 40%(Fell Cleaves) of anyone's health, you're not really helping your team.
PLDs on the other hand have Cover, and Clemency to help your team feel safe. And these two skills/spells are easy to know when to use. Clemency can be spammed with the help of Riot Blade/Goring Blade. A PLD can pretty much be a secondary healer with protection. They also have access to SS, while not as effective as Adlo, it gets the job done of mitigating some amount of dmg. Knowing when to Clemency or when to SS can really help your healer. And lets not forget Divine Veil, being able to activate with just a petty Cure on yourself can help alleviate some stress from your healer.
Now, we have Shield Bash, and Holmgang. And I really think this is where the skill ceiling lies for both classes -- being able to effectively utilize these to stop any outgoing heals, or any attempt to retreat.
All in all, I think they're pretty much on par with each other; each specializing in its own game. But if I was to say which class is easier to pick up and do well with, I'd have to say PLD is the easier one of the two. -
04-17-2016, 11:42 AMRenaultI would argue that learning when and where to use those utilities is more difficult than simply knowing how to use your double fell cleave and full swing burst.Quote:
Originally Posted by DxWings
-
04-17-2016, 11:44 AMEdgyLatinName
Pretty much how I see it, although I think the gap between PLD and WAR isn't huge (maybe it is, I don't know) while the gap between those two and DRK is probably significant.
Dunno, Primal atm is the same 10 dudes fighting each other every que maybe that's clouding my judgement.
*Meant to quote Renault. -
04-17-2016, 12:05 PMRenaultRefer to my second list, that pretty much sums up my agreeing with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
-
04-17-2016, 12:07 PMDxWingsI don't doubt that statement. But far as I have seen since Season 1 started, I've seen PLD just covering their way and Clemency-ing their party through dmg, and people have just net some easy wins. Idk maybe its just what I'm seeing. And hardly do I ever see WARs ever netting kills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
EDIT:
But elaborating though, I'm thinking more along the lines of being able to kill is harder than being able to protect with this PLD vs WAR thing.
PLD doesn't have to try to kill but they can assist. As long as they're able to protect their team mates enough so their healers can catch up on heals, their team will almost always be on the winning side.
As for WARs, they can't really protect anything, they're more to the point of "peeling", but because they bring a higher DPS, they NEED to be able to help get a player's health down enough for a DPS to net the kill or a WAR doing the killing themselves.
In my opinion, killing is harder than protecting. Otherwise, we'd see more deaths.
My point is, is that a PLD doesn't have time to watch their teams full time. But a WAR has to be DPSing full time. Because a PLD has a healer that's doing the bulk of the healing, they only have to watch out for their team whenever it's needed. A WAR, although, having two DPS on their side still has to help DPS to net a kill for their team. With this line of thought, I think playing a PLD is much easier than playing a WAR. -
04-17-2016, 12:07 PMxTysonxand the ninjas on primal....so many ninjas.....Quote:
Originally Posted by EdgyLatinName
I agree with Renault as well for the most part though -
04-17-2016, 12:08 PMPotatoGirlQuote:
Originally Posted by Renault
Pretty spot on. With the current way things are at least. We'll see how it changes after the current season if SE decides to give buffs to anyone *cough* DRK *cough* -
04-17-2016, 05:32 PMNidelia
Blm is a bit special in this rating because you need a half decent team or you worth nothing, but if you are in a half decent team, you can clearly more carry than a smn. Plus it put a higher pressure than smn: You can't really let him free cast... But you can't let free cast the healer too, which creat really annoying situation in solo queue.
The more I play smn, the more I think it was down to low tier (in terme of solo queue) because I m completly incapable to carry something now when it was easy to carry with the higher burst (well obviously). -
04-18-2016, 03:35 AMFebrusSorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree here. If anything, Pld's have to divide their focus FAR more than any War does. To be a good Pld in PvP means that you're not just watching your team. You're watching both your team and the enemy team full time.Quote:
Originally Posted by DxWings
As you said, War's do basically one thing: Dps (even when they're suppressing an enemy healer). All they have to really worry about is the target that is right in front of them. Pld's, on the other hand, have to divide their time between supporting their Dps (Full Swing/DoTs/Burst), defending their healer (clemency, DV, testudo, cover, or stunning enemy dps), AND running interference on the enemy healer (stuns/silence/knockback) so that the Dps can take full advantage of the Full Swing Timer. At any given time, a Pld has to make a judgement call on when and where they are needed most, and how they can best fulfill that role. To make that judgement, they have to be more aware of what's happening around them then just about anyone. On top of this, they also have to adequately judge which CD's they are willing to sacrifice in the process, because they won't that CD again for another 2 minutes.
Pld defensive utility is not so easily managed. Almost all of their defensive moves are on a 180 second CD timer. That's a long time to be working around. You can pop them on the fly, sure, but you'd be wasting them if you use them at the wrong moment. Even Clemency can't be used willy-nilly. A Pld has to exercise good judgement for every move they use or else it's wasted utility. By comparison, the only judgement War's have to make is which target they want to attack, and even then, they're not solely responsible for killing.
Both Pld's and War's have access to Full Swing, and all teams have two Dps characters. If two Dps can kill a target with a Pld, than a War's additional burst is a nice bonus, but it's not required for that kill. So long as a War is providing the same Dps support as a Pld, then anything extra is just icing on the cake. Further still, a War's burst is readily available far more frequently than any of Pld's kit (that includes both offensive and defensive), so by comparison it's much easier to use because the consequences are far less severe if you don't score that kill. None of this is to downplay how hard it is to play war, mind you. It's still a tank, and tanks are one of the hardest roles to play in PvP, but I definitely wouldn't say that War is more difficult to use in PvP settings than Pld. Having a singular focus on dps burst to score kills (which War's are ultimately not responsible for) is not equal in difficulty to dividing your attention across two entire parties and managing how best to use every CD you have while adapting to the circumstances in which you have to use them. -
04-18-2016, 05:10 AMSlib
Only thing id change is pld and drk for the first set. But other than that you are spot on with my list
-
04-18-2016, 05:11 AMSlibThis is in reply to renault. Phone wont let me edit lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Slib
-
04-18-2016, 05:33 AMDxWingsWhile I don't disagree with everything you've said here, I'm still in the opinion that it's still THAT much harder to kill players than it is to protect/heal players after the initial bursting phase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Its just that almost all sustain dmg after the initial bursts can be healed up in one or two spell casts. This creates a situation where PLD doesn't have to work all that hard to protect their team; in my opinion any way. -
04-18-2016, 05:33 AMEdgyLatinName
Sure do love this revolving door of first time healers, nothing more enjoyable than sitting in a que for 15 minutes and losing in 2.
What a fun system, I love it. -
04-18-2016, 07:50 AMFebrusPersonally, I'm not sure that Drk should even be included in the list because no matter how well you actually play that job, you're still at a disadvantage compared to Pld and War. That's not so much a skill issue as it is a design flaw >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Slib
To each their own. Honestly, most players opt for tunnel visioning one thing and one thing only while they're actually in-match, so it tends to be a lot simpler in practice than it is in writing. It's a bit of a different story when actually attempting to maximize what your job can actually do, though. If party defense was the only job of a Pld while in game, then I'd agree with you. War would have more pressure, in that circumstance. That's not the only job they can do, though. They have more party potential than that, and balancing all of their utility can be challenging; so, I'm still going to side with them for having the higher skill ceiling in PvP.Quote:
Originally Posted by DxWings
-
04-18-2016, 12:48 PMNessaWyvern
http://imgur.com/hrYbYko.jpg
Well, I know that Whms are supposed to be able to pull more heals than astro... But I don't see it often >.> -
04-18-2016, 12:51 PMJubez187
if anyone thinks that WAR is harder or not better at Solo Q carrying than PLD then you need your brain checked. As a PLD, if your DPS can't break the threshold then you can't peel cause what's the point? Not to mention balancing utility instead of just double fell cleave RIP.
-
04-18-2016, 02:56 PMSynestraYeah PLD requires good team to shine as its more utility/support focused while WAR is more like one man army due burst and huge amount of self-heals it has. I use FL as an example: 1)Team has poor DPS and/or no healers = WAR time! 2) Team has atleast one healer and good DPS = PLD time!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubez187
-
04-18-2016, 03:16 PMRenaultThat is grotesque overhealing as a diurnal ast. That is not even realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by NessaWyvern
-
04-18-2016, 03:31 PMRenaultI would have agreed with you before the patch, but the buff/change to DRK PVP abilities I think made them more viable but still much more difficult to play. Their PVP abilities, I feel, are not very straight forward like WAR and PLD, as you don't simply buff your team, you are debuffing an enemy. I will say though that I think DRK, in the right hands, is more than viable (could possibly even lean towards OP with successful burst shutdown), so I'm totally open to understanding your reasoning behind placing it before PLD on the "Accessibility" list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slib
-
04-18-2016, 03:33 PMPotatoGirlQuote:
Originally Posted by Renault
It looks like its 8v8 as well. With a tonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn of over healing. :l -
04-18-2016, 04:10 PMNessaWyvern
:| 'cept it wasn't overhealing. most matches have whms in there doing over 700k. I had to heal more since the whm was healing less.
My win ratio in 8v8 pvp is 72.2%, so Ima keep doing what I am doing XD
http://imgur.com/zhu6QDe.jpg
I do more heals than whms in 4v4 as well. -
04-18-2016, 04:27 PMRenaultAny time you are playing a class that uses AOE HoTs, the majority of your healing will be overhealing. Also, I'm sorry, but 8v8 doesn't matter. Also, the reason you outheal WHMs is probably because lots of their GCDs are spent on casting sleep, where as yours are not. Also also, as a healer main, who plays AST and WHM equally, I can say that if you have 575k healing done in a 4v4, you are overhealing immensely. Another thing I noticed in both your SS's is that you are posting one sided matches where you team is winning by a landslide. How about you post a match where you are under more pressure?Quote:
Originally Posted by NessaWyvern
-
04-18-2016, 04:33 PMNessaWyvernQuote:
Originally Posted by Renault
Okay, I will :|
http://imgur.com/oFoSuag.jpg
Note how I did around the same amount of heals, even though I died twice this match. And note how every person on my team did less dps than the other team, and we still won :) But that could be down to better timing of bursts. Astros don't have the CC's that whm does, and we don't have a 40% damage reduction bubble that we can use as effectively as whms do, so ofcourse astros have to do more overall healing than whms. To compensate.
I eagerly await your response as to how my heals are grotesque in this match. :) -
04-18-2016, 04:47 PMRenaultThanks! This was probably a pretty tough match to heal, as the enemy team definitely did more damage. However, I would still like to point out that even though your healing was higher than the other AST, it is most likely because they were Nocturnal Sect. If you double that number, that's about what they were effectively doing, and since it's shield instead of HoTs, there is very little overhealing done by a Noct AST.Quote:
Originally Posted by NessaWyvern
I'd also like to clarify, this is not me saying you are a bad player, or that Diurnal AST is bad (I love it vs. some comps), just that the "healing done" number at the end of the game does not really sum up your contribution to the fight. CC, shielding, and proper positioning (to reduce incoming damage, therefore requiring less outgoing healing) is equally as important as the amount of healing done. -
04-18-2016, 04:52 PMNessaWyvernNot quite, as for noct astrologians in pvp, their shields only do 60% of their HP recovery. (for example if they did an aspected benefic that was 1000 healing, they would only do a 600 sheild.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
Also, most ast switch to benefic 2 when the damage gets really heavy, and/or use essential dignity which is pure heals. so instead of doubling the healing, I would say add another 50% of your healing to the final score, to find true heals for noct ast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
Calling someones heals "Grotesque Overhealing" is like calling someone a bad healer, as that means that they are burning way more mana than they need to, to do useless heals. :| And using the word "grotesque" isn't exactly flattering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
I will admit that I do a bit of overhealing, but it isn't always bad. If people stay topped up, people tend to burst them less often (Look! this guy is at 70% Hp! My burst can probs kill him!) and when bursted, people survive. The enemy switches targets more, and wait longer to use their lb. So overhealing to make sure that everyone is on full hp always can give our team a slight advantage. Just requires more mana management. -
04-18-2016, 05:43 PMFebrusThis is a nice meter lol. Sadly, in FL, the case was overwhelmingly in favour of 1. I hardly ever got to take full advantage of my Pld in FL, usually because there simply were no healers. Dps is a little harder to judge because you don't really know if they're any good until the match actually starts, but it was usually a safe bet that you'd be disappointed lol. I had to do more than my fair share of mid-way switches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestra