A new tank with a question about combos.

Hello, all! I'm newer to this game but not new to tanking in general and I have a question.

I recently got into a friendly argument with a fellow tank in my FC about Halone. They claimed that Halone gains the added increased enmity outside of its combo and should be used upon first pull because Fast Blade doesn't gain much enmity as it is a weak attack, but the tooltip for the ability doesn't reflect this.

If that is true, wouldn't just spamming Halone out of combo be better than doing the full combo? That doesn't sound like what the game wants me to do. Savage Blades tooltip is worded the same as Halone and I've been told it's enmity increase is NOT applied when used out of combo, so why would Halones work that way?

I also think that if Halone does not apply it's enmity increase out of combo then Flash would be a better starter (after shield lob of course) before starting the combo.

Can anyone confirm how Halone actually works?

Rage of Halone does apply it's enmity increase regardless of Combo, but it's 160 attack potency lower to that increase Enmity modifier means much less. The enmity increase on ability that do that is an increase multiplier of the normal enmity generated by an attack of that damage. Keeping in mind that i do not know the exact mutipliers it works kind of like this. (this is purley an example and not real numbers)

Attack dealing 100 damage = 100 enmity
Rage of Halone out of combo deals 100 damage = 300 enmity
Rage of Halon in combo deals 260 damage = 780 enmity

Again I have no idea what the actual numbers look like, but that's the basic premise. Shield oath also adds an enmity multiplier combo once you learn it.

As for snatching threat at the beginning of a pull on a single target I would suggest Shield lob followed by your combo. Flash does blind them which is notable for minor damage mitigation and some threat generation, but your combo is better.

The enmity increase is available without the combo, but since enmity is based off your damage it still ends up being weak. An uncomboed Halone is 100 potency with a 5x modifier, so 500 potency of enmity while a comboed Halone is 260x5=1300 potency. Savage Blade is 350 vs 700. Fast>Savage>Halone is 150+700+1300=2150, 3 Halones would be 500x3=1500. Flash by itself is 600 potency, no multiplier.

On trash pulls with more than one mob you should always use Flash after Shield Lob. On single target, Shield Lob should generate enough enmity to let you start your combo straight away, but if you're super undergeared Flash is your highest enmity generation in a single skill (unless you pop Fight or Flight and use Halone, but you REALLY shouldn't do that). And before you get Halone, spamming Flash generates more enmity than Fast>Savage over and over.

Fast Blade [150 enmity] -> Savage Blade [200 potency x 3.5x enmity multiplier = 700 enmity] -> Rage of Halone [260 potency x 5x enmity multiplier = 1300 enmity] = 2150 enmity
Rage of Halone (without combo) [100 x 5x enmity multiplier = 500 enmity] -> Fast Blade [150 enmity] -> Savage Blade [200 potency x 3.5x enmity multiplier =700] = 1350 potency

As long as you don't lose hate before Savage Blade you'll gain more damage and enmity by starting with Fast Blade in 3 GCDs. Starting with Rage of Halone will actually pull ahead on the 4th combo by only 50 potency and then it just gets worse and worse. Rage of Halone does retain the enmity multiplier even when uncombo'd, however it's worse for damage and enmity. You also don't apply the STR down debuff if you do it uncombo'd.

So. Fast Blade is better. Rage of Halone uncombo'd isn't horrible, but it's just not necessary.

Make sure you're also using Fight or Flight when pulling bosses as it is a massive boon to your enmity generation.

Is there a site that has all the multipliers? This information is super useful. Thanks guys!

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ipliers_table/

Your best pull is almost always going to be Shield Lob straight into combos, with Flash only used where absolutely necessary and/or to maximize mitigation via blind. Keep in mind that your auto-attacks are also a factor, dealing 33.3 * weapon speed potency per hit. Opening with Rage of Halone barely hits for more and gives any beneficial actions dealt to you (buffs or healing) by your team a greater window by which to pull off you before you've hit the other enemies [i.e. "face-pull" time]. If the healer tends to instantly heal you, Lob, Flash, and go from there. If they open with Cleric and heal only as is necessary, you might well be able to go without using Flash at all, or at least use it only as mitigation. That said, it's better to use Flash sooner than later in the sense that the more mobs still up, the more good that Blind is doing.

The only time I use an uncombed Rage of Halone is when I'm standing at where an add will spawn and my team needs to kill that mob instantly, or on sprinting mass pulls where I don't want to waste mana for Flash on just one enemy nor use up so much TP as with a Shield Lob. (I have technically used Savage Blade uncomboed on a new add just to grab its attention in the part of a second before it picks its target for a special attack, after which it will be locked onto me for long enough for it to be killed even if someone else technically has enmity at death.)

Shield Lob = 120 x 4 >> 480 enmity [iirc]
Rage of Halone = 100/260 x 5 >> 500/1300 enmity
Savage Blade = 100/200 x 3.5 >> 350/700 enmity
Flash = 600 enmity AoE (but zero damage, unless you consider the mitigation done as healer offensive GCDs gained)

This tells me that while I was correct in the order (flash is indeed better than an uncombo'd Halone when pulling, especially if you need blind up, otherwise just use the combo), he was technically correct about the multipliers. Interesting.

That table pretty much tells me all I need to know about enmity generation at this point, too. Thanks a LOT for that.

Fun tidbit I just tested: Cleric Stance has a multiplier of 10%, because of the base damage increase. This really surprises me, because I had thought it would have a greater enmity boost to "punish" healer dps and by relation have a multiplier outside of damage like tanks.... nope. So when you are beginning to out aggro the DPS/Tank without casting any heals... you're probably out dpsing them. This shocks and abhors me, because it's very common on pulls and still happens frequently on single target bosses. xD That expert duty roulette life. (Heals actually have an enmity decreaser, they are just so large that it barely gets down to a reasonable number.)

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Fun tidbit I just tested: Cleric Stance has a multiplier of 10%, because of the base damage increase. This really surprises me, because I had thought it would have a greater enmity boost to "punish" healer dps and by relation have a multiplier outside of damage like tanks.... nope. So when you are beginning to out aggro the DPS/Tank without casting any heals... you're probably out dpsing them. This shocks and abhors me, because it's very common on pulls and still happens frequently on single target bosses. xD That expert duty roulette life. (Heals actually have an enmity decreaser, they are just so large that it barely gets down to a reasonable number.)

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Not entirely sure what this has to do with the thread but yeah, it's known that healers generally can out-dps tanks after the tank-dps nerf and VIT changes

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Originally Posted by Zari

Not entirely sure what this has to do with the thread but yeah, it's known that healers generally can out-dps tanks after the tank-dps nerf and VIT changes

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Not talking about just tanks... that's the terrifying part.

Another point to keep in mind is that the damage from Rage of Halone only goes out after the (lengthy) animation finishes. You can observe this effect on both the scrolling combat text as well as your combat log. As a result, unlike with Fast Blade and Savage Blade, there is a bit of a delay between the activation of the skill and your enmity generation. You may have noticed this yourself; sometimes when you use Rage of Halone just as you lose aggro on a mob it will take a few steps away from you, turn, and come back to you after the animation finishes and the damage registers. You can speed this up marginally by weaving in an oGCD ability, but PLD doesn't have too many good options to do this with.

RoH is better suited for consolidating enmity than it is in gaining initial aggro. In low level dungeons, shield lob is good to open on a single target, and flash will work fine on multiple targets before going into your enmity combo.

In higher level content where you need to quickly gain aggro on a mob or tank swap, you'll want to try to be on the second step of your combo when you land your first hit in order to generate the maximum enmity in the shortest amount of time. RoH is too slow for an initial attack. Barring that, WAR and DRK have Overpower and Abyssal Drain respectively as less efficient alternatives that work in a pinch, if you didn't time your rotation correctly.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

This shocks and abhors me, because it's very common on pulls and still happens frequently on single target bosses. xD That expert duty roulette life.

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Don't worry, at least on single target, healers can't reach anywhere near the DPS of an actual DPS class. Sometimes this happens just b/c the DPS are bad, other times they can be on jobs like MNK that can need a build-up before they hit their stride.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Don't worry, at least on single target, healers can't reach anywhere near the DPS of an actual DPS class. Sometimes this happens just b/c the DPS are bad, other times they can be on jobs like MNK that can need a build-up before they hit their stride.

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I can sustain 1100+(on the a8 dummy I hit for 1200+ as an example) outside of party on SCH so in party it might be higher (maybe lol and obviously assuming I can just embrace and minimal moving.) So it happens a little too often. xD

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

I can sustain 1100+(on the a8 dummy I hit for 1200+ as an example) outside of party on SCH so in party it might be higher (maybe lol and obviously assuming I can just embrace and minimal moving.) So it happens a little too often. xD

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Take into account that an equally geared and skilled DPS would probably be doing 2k+ on that same dummy, though. I mean, it's not hard for me as a SCH to keep up 800+ dps throughout a dungeon but even a halfway decent SMN is gonna destroy that.

In any case, not even sure what this has to do with the thread if you are comparing to DPS and not tanks.

I was just saying how I found it strange that healer aggro gets so high dpsing for no apparent reason. It's pretty common to steal a few adds from tanks in pulls, as well. I thought it was due to a punishment mechanic, but testing it, it is not. So I'm just wondering why it's so common for healers (in my experience) to be ahead of all the dps, even without healing, especially on AOE, but still frequently on single target. This thread was discussing enmity, so I was adding to it.
(The main point of this thread has been answered 3 times at least)

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

I was just saying how I found it strange that healer aggro gets so high dpsing for no apparent reason. It's pretty common to steal a few adds from tanks in pulls, as well. I thought it was due to a punishment mechanic, but testing it, it is not. So I'm just wondering why it's so common for healers (in my experience) to be ahead of all the dps, even without healing, especially on AOE, but still frequently on single target. This thread was discussing enmity, so I was adding to it.
(The main point of this thread has been answered 3 times at least)

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Its because healers are not only dpsing, they also might have things like regens ticking unless they are a SCH.

It is also possible you get a lot of dps that are not good at their job

TLDR: Dont use the enmity meter to compare dps

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Originally Posted by Zari

TLDR: Dont use the enmity meter to compare dps

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I agree that the enmity meter is a poor dps gauge, but if the only healing you're doing is through embrace and you're pulling second highest threat on every mob, without the dps casting quelling skills, what the hell is going on. xD It does make it easy to see who is performing, because the better dps do get ahead of me (as the healer.) It just seemed too common to be poor dps from dps players.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

So I'm just wondering why it's so common for healers (in my experience) to be ahead of all the dps, even without healing, especially on AOE, but still frequently on single target.

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Oh hmm. Maybe it's just a potency thing?

Monk's 1 2 3 combo of Bootshine (150) true strike ( 190 ) Snap Punch (180) = 520 potency
White mage could use Stone 3 in the same amount of cooldowns for (210) x 3 = 630 potency

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Originally Posted by Ragology

Oh hmm. Maybe it's just a potency thing?

Monk's 1 2 3 combo of Bootshine (150) true strike ( 190 ) Snap Punch (180) = 520 potency
White mage could use Stone 3 in the same amount of cooldowns for (210) x 3 = 630 potency

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It would be 630x1.1 because of cleric stance. Greased lighting does take a bit as well if it falls off, so they won't have their multiplier.

Allot of the melee do have suboptimal aoe, where as healers do have that going for them. It's just strange to be in that party where you are fighting a single target and 2nd in line for hate, when your strength isn't single target (compared to melee dps.)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

In higher level content where you need to quickly gain aggro on a mob or tank swap, you'll want to try to be on the second step of your combo when you land your first hit in order to generate the maximum enmity in the shortest amount of time. RoH is too slow for an initial attack. Barring that, WAR and DRK have Overpower and Abyssal Drain respectively as less efficient alternatives that work in a pinch, if you didn't time your rotation correctly.

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It's worth noting you can use OGCDs to cancel Halone's animation and get the threat quicker, if you absolutely have to.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It's worth noting you can use OGCDs to cancel Halone's animation and get the threat quicker, if you absolutely have to.

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Was tested a long time ago, doesn't actually work, damage/enmity from RoH registers at the same time with or without it. However, using an oGCD will give you a small amount of threat, so it can register some level of threat quicker. Your best bet in terms of no-combo snap aggro on something would be Rage of Halone -> Spirits Within, though in terms of raw enmity per GCD Flash is better (just doesn't do any damage). A better idea still would be to have a combo'd Savage Blade or RoH prepped instead, though that depends on how well you know the fight.

I mentioned animation cancelling earlier in my post. The big problem with animation cancelling on PLD in particular is that many of the limited oGCDs you could use either have lengthy animations themselves (i.e. Spirits Within) or long cooldowns (i.e. buffs), and it still ends up being slower than the alternatives.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

I was just saying how I found it strange that healer aggro gets so high dpsing for no apparent reason. It's pretty common to steal a few adds from tanks in pulls, as well. I thought it was due to a punishment mechanic, but testing it, it is not. So I'm just wondering why it's so common for healers (in my experience) to be ahead of all the dps, even without healing, especially on AOE, but still frequently on single target. This thread was discussing enmity, so I was adding to it.
(The main point of this thread has been answered 3 times at least)

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Healers actually generate way more aggro through healing than they ever will through sheer damage. Having a HoT ticking while you're doing damage is a lot of aggro, as is burst healing on the tank when you drop out of cleric stance.

Healer enmity is lower than the potency. Yes lustrate will generate 300 potency worth of aggro but bio alone with generate 264. Bio II 385. So in the grander schemes the dps is what causes your aggro. I heal maybe twice a fight directly (being generous on that) normally selene + rouse is enough with all the filler time. But you're probably right that bio and lustrate stacking to 564 potency of enmity in 2.4 seconds as a combination to the issue..... buttt aggro like this happens when zero healing is done outside of embrace. o.o

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Healer enmity is lower than the potency. Yes lustrate will generate 300 potency worth of aggro but bio alone with generate 264. Bio II 385. So in the grander schemes the dps is what causes your aggro. I heal maybe twice a fight directly (being generous on that) normally selene + rouse is enough with all the filler time. But you're probably right that bio and lustrate stacking to 564 potency of enmity in 2.4 seconds as a combination to the issue..... buttt aggro like this happens when zero healing is done outside of embrace. o.o

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I believe it's 50% for healing, 100% for over healing.

It's not unusual for scholars to hit high threat from damage. Cleric stance essentially turns you into a slightly weaker summoner who has the same stat wants (Crit / Det) with the 10% boost on top of that from cleric.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

I can sustain 1100+(on the a8 dummy I hit for 1200+ as an example) outside of party on SCH so in party it might be higher (maybe lol and obviously assuming I can just embrace and minimal moving.) So it happens a little too often. xD

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The minimum DPS check for say, MNK just to complete is 1800+
You're not even close to what actual DPS classes can pull.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Healer enmity is lower than the potency. Yes lustrate will generate 300 potency worth of aggro but bio alone with generate 264. Bio II 385. So in the grander schemes the dps is what causes your aggro. I heal maybe twice a fight directly (being generous on that) normally selene + rouse is enough with all the filler time. But you're probably right that bio and lustrate stacking to 564 potency of enmity in 2.4 seconds as a combination to the issue..... buttt aggro like this happens when zero healing is done outside of embrace. o.o

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You biggest offender is in fact WHM. The class has way more burst than any other healing classes. To illustrate, back in the STR meta, in A3S, my WHM would always 100% pull aggro off me with Medica 2, Regen and full DPS over 1k++ DPS. I was in Sword Oath tanking + NIN. After that happened a couple of times, my NIN just gave him Smokescreen and we had no other problem ever since.

SCH is the weakest to generate aggro: lower AOE heals, split with fairy, no Regen equivalent, DoTs takes way longer to put up decent amount of aggro against tanks. If your SCH manages to take tanks aggro, that's completely on the tank.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I mentioned animation cancelling earlier in my post. The big problem with animation cancelling on PLD in particular is that many of the limited oGCDs you could use either have lengthy animations themselves (i.e. Spirits Within) or long cooldowns (i.e. buffs), and it still ends up being slower than the alternatives.

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Halone's animation is much slower(even more for Butcher's Block), it only takes effect when numbers come in. I actually tried Halone > immediate Provoke during T13 lvl50 back then. Worked like a charm. Not too sure if it is still the same since nowadays you absolutely don't have to take aggro that fast, meaning Provoke into Halone works just fine.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It's worth noting you can use OGCDs to cancel Halone's animation and get the threat quicker, if you absolutely have to.

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And no, OGCDs are there to supplement aggro until Halone's number takes effect.