Dark Arts Adjustment

Over on the PvP forums, several adjustments were mentioned by Yoshi-P in regards to how utterly useless Drk was in the current Feast game mode.Most of you will probably not care about the adjustments being made, as they make no difference to PvE content (though most of them are good, for those of you who like to PvP). However, there is one change that caught my eye for possible PvE implications.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Dark Knight

We received a great deal of feedback from players who felt that dark knight was lacking in both offensive and defensive capabilities when compared to paladin and warrior, and to address these concerns we will be making the following changes.

[LIST][*]Dark Arts
Recast Time: 5s → 3s (PvP and PvE)

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Dark Arts is having it's timer reduced. In PvP, this provides a faster and readily accessible boost. MP management is not as much of an issue as well, because the mp depletion rate for Darkside is much lower in PvP settings. However, this is not the case in PvE, so I'm wondering what the implications are.

My first thoughts are that nothing will change in regards to the Drk rotation. Our Mp draw will be the same, so we'll not be using any more or less DA strikes than we normally do. We could, mind you, but if we did we'd run the risk of running out of Mp all that much faster.This would not be the case, however, if Drk's mp replenishment was buffed somehow, but SE has not mentioned any additional changes being made so far.

Any thoughts on this? How do think this will effect Drk's playstyle? Do you think this means we'll be seeing additional changes to Drk's kit (especially in regards to Mp replenishment), or will we have to simply exercise more restraint when using DA?

Can't really see it effecting anything outside of large aoe pulls. Single target there's a hard cap of 8 DA combo finishers, 2 DA-DP and 1 DA-CS offensively + 1 each DA-DD and DA-DM defensively. That's only a total 13 possible Dark Arts casts per minute, previous limit was 12, now it's 20. Even if they up the mp regen you're never going to use all 20/minute outside of maybe aoe pulls, but since effectively you can still only use it every second GCD without holding gcds for a half second or more, I don't really see it having much effect there either.

Wow, this makes me glad I am still playing and switched to Warrior. Does he know how much Dark Arts costs? You can't even use 99% of your abilities with DA because its not worth the costs. Dark Arts and Darkside just EAT your mana away.

This changes nothing honestly.

The only way I can see this working is if Blood Weapon got a reduced CD and was useful in Grit and up all the time.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Wow, this makes me glad I am still playing and switched to Warrior. Does he know how much Dark Arts costs? You can't even use 99% of your abilities with DA because its not worth the costs. Dark Arts and Darkside just EAT your mana away.

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1. You don't even have a Dark Knight that we can tell, so you have literally zero stake in this discussion. You also have stated numerous times that you don't tank serious content in this game, so can't have any understanding of how the job functions in the real world.
2. If you are hiding a Dark Knight somewhere and aren't using Dark Arts, you're playing it wrong. You're supposed to use your MP on Dark Arts extremely strategically, and build it back up when you're good to go without it for a bit.
3. Just because you don't know how to plan ahead and use Dark Arts strategically, and so think the job is broken doesn't mean that it actually is, and doesn't mean that there aren't millions of other people who do know how to do those things to very great effect. Never assume your experience is universal.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

This changes nothing honestly.

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On this we can agree, because a good Dark Knight will only use it as often as she or he needs to, and having a slightly shorter cooldown isn't going to change that.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

The only way I can see this working is if Blood Weapon got a reduced CD and was useful in Grit and up all the time.

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Refer to the numeric list above. No DRKs on your account, no raiding experience, you aren't playing it right, and your experience isn't universal. I feel bad saying this, but you should seriously learn to play the class before you act like you know what you're talking about (or stop trolling us, if that's what it is, because we're all getting tired of it).

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Originally Posted by Februs

Any thoughts on this? How do think this will effect Drk's playstyle? Do you think this means we'll be seeing additional changes to Drk's kit (especially in regards to Mp replenishment), or will we have to simply exercise more restraint when using DA?

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I imagine it'd make what few possible mess-ups we could make even more difficult to make or negligible when made. For those who weren't accidentally delaying their DA-CS by accidentally popping DA before a consumer (frequently DP), it just means we can use DA on every AD with a faint delay rather than every other, when being BP mana gluttons with relatively little outside healing received. In either case, I doubt I'd care or really notice.

To be honest, I don't see how its likely to help with Feast either. Even with its oGCDs, DRK isn't much of a killer. And even when attempting to burn someone down, the only offensive option worth using is DA-CS and DA-SE, which takes 3 GCDs to re-prep anyways. A mana cost reduction in PVP would have gone a lot further to help DRK's situation.

Honestly, even in PvE I think DRK could do with a slight reduction to certain mana costs, particularly Grit and Dark Arts. The latter is for obvious reasons; if we're spending a GCD on it, it shouldn't be killing a fifth of our pool, most of our gains from a Blood Weapon swap, just to return to tank stance. The second is to devalue Syphon Strike slightly and increase potential burst. My only hopes for recast times are that both Dark Arts and Darkside are changed to scale with one's GCD (a hope I similarly have for Meditation, Geirskogul, Gauss Barrel, Wanderer's Minuet, Cleric Stance, Transpose, Fester/Painflare/Bane, and others that could otherwise slightly bottleneck rotations or devalue attack rate).

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

1. You don't even have a Dark Knight that we can tell, so you have literally zero stake in this discussion. You also have stated numerous times that you don't tank serious content in this game, so can't have any understanding of how the job functions in the real world.
2. If you are hiding a Dark Knight somewhere and aren't using Dark Arts, you're playing it wrong. You're supposed to use your MP on Dark Arts extremely strategically, and build it back up when you're good to go without it for a bit.
3. Just because you don't know how to plan ahead and use Dark Arts strategically, and so think the job is broken doesn't mean that it actually is, and doesn't mean that there aren't millions of other people who do know how to do those things to very great effect. Never assume your experience is universal.

On this we can agree, because a good Dark Knight will only use it as often as she or he needs to, and having a slightly shorter cooldown isn't going to change that.


Refer to the numeric list above. No DRKs on your account, no raiding experience, you aren't playing it right, and your experience isn't universal. I feel bad saying this, but you should seriously learn to play the class before you act like you know what you're talking about (or stop trolling us, if that's what it is, because we're all getting tired of it).

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Linked it before, don't feel like doing it again. I have a 60 Warrior and a 60 DRK. So please don't just assume. ;)

Also, adjusting a change like this can be more negative then good, ruining rotations.

Also, I read Japanese forums. They all say the same thing; MP cost is too much. So please; don't troll and assume things either person. ;) THANK You.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Linked it before, don't feel like doing it again. I have a 60 Warrior and a 60 DRK. So please don't just assume. ;)

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Where is this link (which thread?), and why is it not tied to your forum account? Yours is the credibility at stake.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Where is this link (which thread?), and why is it not tied to your forum account? Yours is the credibility at stake.

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Could care less honestly. :(

Also, this has nothing to do with the thread. Stay on topic please. :P

Eh if anything I can see a DASE > DACnS combo going off in OT. Technically already achievable. 3s cooldown just makes it achievable sooner.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To be honest, I don't see how its likely to help with Feast either. Even with its oGCDs, DRK isn't much of a killer. And even when attempting to burn someone down, the only offensive option worth using is DA-CS and DA-SE, which takes 3 GCDs to re-prep anyways. A mana cost reduction in PVP would have gone a lot further to help DRK's situation.

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This wasn't the only change made to Dark Knight that Yoshi announced. The full list for Drk is as such:

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Dark Knight

We received a great deal of feedback from players who felt that dark knight was lacking in both offensive and defensive capabilities when compared to paladin and warrior, and to address these concerns we will be making the following changes.

• Dark Arts
  Recast Time: 5s → 3s (PvP and PvE)
  
  
• Tar Pit
  Potency: 200 → 250 (Enhanced Tar Pit II: 240 → 300)
  Recast Time: 150s → 120s (Enhanced Tar Pit: 120s → 90s)
  HP Absorption: 20% → 150% (Enhanced Tar Pit III: 40% → 200%)
  
  
• Carnal Chill
  Recast Time: 120s → 90s (Enhanced Carnal Chill: 90s → 60s)
  Damage Penalty: 10% → 40% (Enhanced Carnal Chill III: 20% → 60%)
  Duration: 20s → 6s

Tar Pit should now function as a self-preservation technique, and Carnal Chill as a way to quickly lower the damage dealing capabilities of opponents. Also, while Carnal Chill’s duration has been shortened, recast times for these abilities have been reduced, which should enable players to employ them more effectively. These changes are intended to make dark knight function as a tank that can protect himself and his allies through debuffs and health absorption.

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That's also just a drop in the bucket to the mass amounts of other changes being implemented. You can read the rest here, if you're interested.

Drk was made far more viable with several of these additions. Further, in PvP, burst potential is everything. With a shorter Dark Arts cast timer it is possible for Drk to extend their total burst for a longer duration with a higher potency at the expense of going completely broke on Mp. That sounds utterly ludicrous from PvE standpoint, of course, but in PvP it's a viable option and tactic when that extra bit of dps can make all the difference. It kind of puts Drk's in the same position as Pld, in that they'll have to make a conscious decision as to if the burst is worth the sacrifice. Another thing to remember is that Darkside already has a dramatically reduced mana drain effect in PvP settings (effect is reduced by 1/3 in PvP), so their Mp is already much more sustainable in the arena. I totally understood where these decisions came from for PvP ... It was the PvE part that seems a bit odd to me.

From what I can tell, it really does seem more like a QoL adjustment than anything else. I mean, IF SE implemented a stronger mana regen, or just flat out reduced the cost of Grit and Dark Arts, then I could kind of see this making a difference to our overall dps, but without those additional changes it just seems more like an ease of use kind of thing. That said, I really don't know if any additional changes are coming to Drk in that patch. The post was PvP specific. No further job adjustments were detailed outside of PvP announcements. I really don't think they're changing anything else (I figure they would have said something by now if they were), but that's not to say they never will (a man can hope).

I am hoping this isn't the only adjustment they plan to make for DRK. While building MP isn't much of a issue, Dark Arts cooldown reduction won't really change a thing in either defensive or offensive capabilities. I would rather them look over our OT potential and see what adjustments they can do there. I don't see much of a change from being able to activate Dark Arts 2 more seconds eariler, especially if your pre-loading it before your required weaponskill/ability.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I could care less honestly. I am Talathion, who are you?

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I'm Jpec07. I have two tanking mains at 60, linked to my account on the forum (and a WHM/SMN I haven't linked yet named Sh'mara Naham, in the same FC). I regularly tank Expert Roulette, Trial Roulette, 24-man raids, Main Scenario Roulette, and Alexander Gordias and Midas in an attempt to keep them geared. I just unlocked the Awoken Anima weapon on my main, because the grind hasn't seemed completely worthwhile to me until recently. I haven't had an opportunity to do Ex or Savage raiding, but my FC is building up to start recruiting soon, which hopefully means we'll be pushing the front line with the rest of them. I read these forums more than I probably should, and while I have crazy notions about Parry, I'll generally admit when I'm wrong, and don't try to obfuscate my identity.

Who are you, Talathion?

What we can see is that you're Therion Kator'to, the Scholar who is still only wearing Eso gear.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Also, this has nothing to do with the thread. Stay on topic please. :P

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Oh but it most certainly does have to do with this thread. You're naysaying the changes based upon your "own experiences," but so far as any of us can tell, those experiences are not actually yours. So you're basing your stance on the matter at hand on what seems to be, by all accounts, either a fabrication or a delusion.

Regardless of your experience, though, and whether or not you are who and what you say you are, you have failed to address any of my later points, which dismantle your notion that Dark Arts ought to be avoided.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Also, I read Japanese forums. They all say the same thing; MP cost is too much. So please; don't troll and assume things either person. ;) THANK You.

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If this is so, would you mind linking to a few such comments and threads? Google translate is pretty crappy, but at least it can help get the gist of what's being said.

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Originally Posted by Esp

I am hoping this isn't the only adjustment they plan to make for DRK. While building MP isn't much of a issue, Dark Arts cooldown reduction won't really change a thing in either defensive or offensive capabilities. I would rather them look over our OT potential and see what adjustments they can do there. I don't see much of a change from being able to activate Dark Arts 2 more seconds eariler, especially if your pre-loading it before your required weaponskill/ability.

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The only real PvE change I can see from this is you may have enough time to fire off constant DAAD, provided you pre-load the first DA and have a ton of MP coming in from Blood Price. Apart from that, unless they're also adjusting the MP cost it won't be a super big change.

At least this will make it easier to pull of DA-CnS DA-SE combos when you have the MP for it. I mean, its possible now if you prep DA early enough but with a lot of stuff going on I mess up the timing a lot.

As noted, this change is an improvement to AOE SUSTAIN in pve mostly.

And it's a SLIGHT improvement to MT situations where you have enough mana that you can sustain your DPS while using boosted DEFENSIVE cooldowns.

For OT and PVE it's not an improvement in OVERALL dps, but allows for centralizing potential burst via DACNS-DASE.

In the end I'd have preferred a decrease in cost as opposed to a cooldown reduction, but you gotta take what you get sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Violette

I'd have preferred a decrease in cost as opposed to a cooldown reduction, but you gotta take what you get sometimes.

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That's exactly what they should have done. I feel this is just Yoshi trolling.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Wow, this makes me glad I am still playing and switched to Warrior. Does he know how much Dark Arts costs? You can't even use 99% of your abilities with DA because its not worth the costs. Dark Arts and Darkside just EAT your mana away.

This changes nothing honestly.

The only way I can see this working is if Blood Weapon got a reduced CD and was useful in Grit and up all the time.

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I used to feel that way, but I had to constantly play DRK in order to utilize Dark Arts with other abilities effectively. As an OT, I keep a lot of MP to almost always spam Dark Arts. As an MT, I rely heavily on Blood Price and Soul Siphon for MP regen, while Carve and Spit for those "oh crap I need a little MP" moments.

The only time Carve and Spit should ever be used without DA for the MP gain is when you are pulling trash. When MTing a boss every Carve and Spit should be with DA immediately.

Pretty sure this is entirely intended to be a PVP specific change but was also added to PVE as they couldn't come up with a way around it and it didn't dramatically shift anything DRK-related in PVE anyway. 3s is good, it means your next DA will be up sooner in the GCD. I always found it a bit frustrating that DA would always come up at the tail end of my GCD and this sort of alleviates that slightly (though it can still happen). DRK also doesn't really need a DPS buff in PVE... it's more than capable of pulling high numbers. Reprisal, DA + DM, and Delirium (with no MNK, and in some cases even with MNK) are very valuable things to bring to the raid if utilized correctly. I think, moving forward, we could see some issues arise with DRK depending on how the raids are made but for now there's really no need for adjustments. Obviously the DRK + PLD thing needs looking into as a viable tanking composition, but that's for another patch (though hopefully sooner rather than later).

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

it didn't dramatically shift anything DRK-related in PVE anyway. 3s is good, it means your next DA will be up sooner in the GCD. I always found it a bit frustrating that DA would always come up at the tail end of my GCD and this sort of alleviates that slightly (though it can still happen). DRK also doesn't really need a DPS buff in PVE... it's more than capable of pulling high numbers.

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I agree. Personally, I can't say that I've ever felt like I wasn't doing enough damage as a Drk; though, there have been times in which the CD didn't quite line up as well as I would have liked. 3 seconds should alleviate that problem, so long as I don't use it more times than I should.

I also would have been more concerned for the current Tank balance if this did result in a straight Dps increase, specifically that between Pld and Drk. It's bad enough that they compete for the second tank spot as it is. Throwing additional Dps onto Drk, which already excels at MT dps in the first place, would only drive that wedge in deeper, as Pld's would be left even further behind than they already are. They do have more utility, obviously, but that's not necessarily competitive. There's a limit to how much additional utility is actually needed or even used in a party, but there's no limit to the value on additional Dps, hence Wars' undisputed hold on the OT position when placed with anything other than another War.

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Originally Posted by Februs

That's also just a drop in the bucket to the mass amounts of other changes being implemented. You can read the rest here, if you're interested.

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Oh wow, that's... some serious buffing. I definitely prefer the shorter, snappier Carnal Chill for one. For some reason I thought people were still talking about the last set of DRK PvP buffs; I missed this set completely. Agreed that the DA change component is purely QoL. It's nice that it'll no longer ever stick out past the 2nd GCD, even if that change isn't exactly significant either.

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Originally Posted by Februs

I really don't think they're changing anything else (I figure they would have said something by now if they were), but that's not to say they never will (a man can hope).

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I'll just stand by my hopes for a significant Grit mana cost reduction and a slightly Dark Arts cost reduction. That and maybe some small buff to DD, DM, and SS (preferably in a way that eases access to otherwise MT-locked skills from OT position or from afar, perhaps with an ally-targetable support element).

Side-note though: That Aetherflow buff seems overkill, just like the SMN overall damage nerf before (as deserved as the burst nerf may have been when combined with their very nice general output). Would really rather it be reduced to 1 stack lost per hit, but One-Ilm Punch able to strip two debuffs on crit, making it a bit more useful on average, even if no longer THE arcanist hard-counter. If ammo is currently removable, then it should get the same treatment.

The changes doesn't seem like it'll help you kill faster.
The 40% reduction is a nice defensive utility to the team I guess.

I still don't see DRKs being preferred over WARs/PLDs tbh as the amount they bring to the table is just not as much as the other two.

It's a slight improvement.

I was expecting more on the utility side of things.

For PvE - I don't think it's a buff as your rotation is limited by the cds - particularly CnS. Changes close to nothing imo.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Oh wow, that's... some serious buffing. I definitely prefer the shorter, snappier Carnal Chill for one. For some reason I thought people were still talking about the last set of DRK PvP buffs; I missed this set completely. Agreed that the DA change component is purely QoL. It's nice that it'll no longer ever stick out past the 2nd GCD, even if that change isn't exactly significant either.

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I'm not surprised you missed it. It was only posted yesterday morning. I caught it because I frequent the PvP forums. I actually made that thread, so I feel like I should check up on it from time to time, especially now that Feast is out. Back in the day, SE ignored PvP so hard that it might as well not have existed, but since Feast's release they've (seemingly) taken a much stronger interest in listening to the PvP community and acting on the feedback we've been giving them. It's not often that I see a PvE related change, though; so, I figured that I should share it here for the sake of awareness.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Side-note though: That Aetherflow buff seems overkill, just like the SMN overall damage nerf before (as deserved as the burst nerf may have been when combined with their very nice general output). Would really rather it be reduced to 1 stack lost per hit, but One-Ilm Punch able to strip two debuffs on crit, making it a bit more useful on average, even if no longer THE arcanist hard-counter. If ammo is currently removable, then it should get the same treatment.

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I'm not 100% positive about this, since I don't play Sch or Mnk, but I think the primary issue with Aetherflow was that the CD on One-Ilm Punch is too fast for a Sch's to counter, should the Mnk know what they're doing. The timing ensures that a Mnk can easily dis-spell a Sch's aetherflow stacks and have a second One-Ilm punch at the ready as soon as that the Sch builds those stacks back up. In casual 8 vs 8, this is not such a big problem. There's another healer, and the fights are so cluttered that tactics tend to go right out the window. In ranked solo-queue and 4 vs 4, however, it made sch almost unplayable.

Before the changes to the casting interruption threshold, seeing a Sch in your team was almost synonymous with an automatic loss. After they changed the interruption threshold Sch became viable again, but they can still be decimated by an experienced Mnk. They also lack the CC utility to defend themselves against such an attack, unlike Whm's or Astro's who can paper tank or halt enemy advances (hence the nerfs to sleep's duration). A coordinated team can effectively neutralize and eliminate a Sch in under a minute flat. I've actually been in a match recently where I saw it first hand. We had an experienced Mnk in the party who pretty much solo'd the Sch the entire time while the rest of us mopped up the dps. Between that and me throwing up a stun on their pet, the Sch was next to helpless to defend themselves, and their team hardly got any heals at all. It was one of the fastest fights I've ever been in, including the original WD, and it kinda felt dirty ... But a win's a win, right?

I enjoy this small buff, dark arts into Abyssal Drain is faster now in a big pull if I want to just recover alot of hp. Before I would be sitting there for there couple of sec waiting on the DA cd.

I think this was a step in the right direction. It made DA DD and DA DP an easier combo, but all that mp for a few sec of dodges.....

Also I think getting more mp back from Syphon Blade, Blood Price and Blood Weapon is a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

I think this was a step in the right direction. It made DA DD and DA DP an easier combo, but all that mp for a few sec of dodges.....

Also I think getting more mp back from Syphon Blade, Blood Price and Blood Weapon is a good idea.

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I believe the MP returns are a preset value though.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I believe the MP returns are a preset value though.

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haha whoops forgot about how it goes based on max mp. Nvm then.

Now that DA has 3 secs CD my deeps went soha :D PvP or PvE it doesn't matter great change for DRKs.
My deeps is so high it smells weed :D