MCH PVP Nerfs!? Really!?

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Q: I’m excited for season 1 of the Feast to start, but I’m worried that certain jobs will become stronger or weaker with the adjustments that take place in Patch 3.25. Will season 1 begin as planned from Patch 3.25?

"A: I previously posted the the adjustment plans on the forums, but in Patch 3.25, which is scheduled to be released next week, we will be reducing the match times making it so the battle can be concluded at a quicker pace. Additionally, we will be making adjustments to the aspects that have been leading to long and drawn out matches.

We will be reducing the number of walls that often disturb line of sight, increasing the frequency in which the adrenaline rush box appears and make it easier to destroy, as well as other elements to make the pace of the game quicker.

To coincide with this, we will also be making job adjustments. We’re aware that machinists have a high amount of burst damage, so we’ll be making adjustments to this. "

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The class is actually great and desirable in an event, and you're going to nerf it!? Where was this eagerness in Seal Rock on WAR/SMN.... this is ridiculous. The class is just fine, if you're looking to nerf DPS classes then you should be looking at the meta of DRG/MNK or even WAR's out put for a tank. Picking on the MCH when he's finally in the spotlight is garbage.

probably can't have the MCH being the master class in both pvp and pve :/

^^ Eh it's more FotM because it's actually decent, and contributes to the party greater then before. But it isn't broken, or over the top, it's no stronger then some of the top DPS classes in PVP, which. Frankly for how much there is to do on the class, it should be. This is just some gut reaction adjustment, that shouldn't be done, and should be thought out more carefully.

They already murdered my SMN, my PVP main. But now you're going for my main class?! #DeadToMeSE

keep in mind they might be more aggressive with nerfs etc cuz of the season approaching.

MCH burst annihilates BRD and (if played well) DRG, so I wouldn't expect anything different from lowering MCH to match BRD in PVP. BRD is still perfectly capable of killing you in a matter of seconds in PVP.

How is it any different from DRG or MNK? Sure maybe BRD trails by a little (not much), but it isn't so significantly game breaking like the 3 step SMN nuke that was a guaranteed kill 95% of the time. It's just BS, like they talk about making it so fights go faster, but then they pull this crap and make it so fights stalemate more by nerfing classes to be weaker.

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

The class is actually great and desirable in an event, and you're going to nerf it!? Where was this eagerness in Seal Rock on WAR/SMN.... this is ridiculous. The class is just fine, if you're looking to nerf DPS classes then you should be looking at the meta of DRG/MNK or even WAR's out put for a tank. Picking on the MCH when he's finally in the spotlight is garbage.

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Warrior damage has already been nerfed by roughly 30%, the only reason why you see Warriors out put so much damage is because they are largely ignored. NIN is getting buffed to be on par with DRG/MNK (hopefully). Close range penalty negation only made MCH's over the top burst, even stronger.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

Warrior damage has already been nerfed by roughly 30%, the only reason why you see Warriors out put so much damage is because they are largely ignored. NIN is getting buffed to be on par with DRG/MNK (hopefully). Close range penalty negation only made MCH's over the top burst, even stronger.

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when was that 30% nerf? Not saying it's not true, but I must of missed that. And idk dude, I still get hit by a fell cleave and it's damn near half my HP. And I agree, NIN could us a bit of Love even though they have some gap closers and what not. They should be able to invis mid fight to utilize their abilities, and range DPS would have to use the detector ability more often. Idk, if they removed the negation I would be fine with that because frankly it didn't do much anyway. But to nerf any of its abilities (except maybe wild fire) would be just down right rage inducing for me personally.

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

when was that 30% nerf?

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The VIT change in 3.2 also changed the damage calculation, so you end up doing about 30% less damage than you did in 3.15. It's uniform across all three tanks, 30% less even in DPS stance.

If the nerf is mild I think it would be.. fair. I'm guessing Between-the-Eyes is going to be hit with a potency nerf or cooldown increase, maybe 150 (180 with trait) to 120 (150 with trait)? That's what I would do anyway.

We have pretty ridiculous burst when cooldowns are up - and consistent burst too now that GB removes the close ranged portion of the damage penalty.

That said it's a very fine line because burst is the only thing MCH has going for it in PvP. Unlike BRDs and SMNs who are far superior multidotters, or melee who can just sit on a target, our sustained DPS and ability to pressure outside of cooldowns in PvP is downright pitiful and probably the worst in the game barring the tanks and healers. You will not even be able to harass casters due to the 15% of HP interrupt threshold.

I'm more surprised they're only addressing mch burst, because it's around the same line with brd and even melee (except they need a debuff prior). Brd burst doesn't trail that far behind and there's less counter plays to it, on top of that they have the new paeon which is pretty damn powerful against certain teams.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

The VIT change in 3.2 also changed the damage calculation, so you end up doing about 30% less damage than you did in 3.15. It's uniform across all three tanks, 30% less even in DPS stance.

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Really? God I hope that's not what he was refering to, that's not even a 30% difference, more like 10%, and even then, WAR has the highest base HP in the game, so that isn't even remotely a "Nerf" That's putting bubble wrap around a knife and saying it kills people less. Sure you can't cut em, but you can definitely still stab em.

@Myon88 Agreed, if it's something light like that, I would be fine with it, as long as it doesn't effect the kit over all, PVP perks, alright tweek em. But if they pull a "SMN Style" Castration of MCH, I'm just going to lose it.

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

Really? God I hope that's not what he was refering to, that's not even a 30% difference, more like 10%, and even then, WAR has the highest base HP in the game, so that isn't even remotely a "Nerf" That's putting bubble wrap around a knife and saying it kills people less. Sure you can't cut em, but you can definitely still stab em.

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The reason you feel it's less is because WAR has the best burst potential, so you die slightly slower than you used to if an Infuriated Berserk WAR blasts you with back to back FCs while Holmganging you in place (but you will still die). If you look at the average, WAR is still 30% lower than it used to be in 3.15, including burst phases.

WAR doesn't have the highest base HP in Deliverance, either; they only have more HP in Defiance, which takes Fell Cleave off the table and forces them to use Inner Beast (or sacrifice that HP cushion to switch back to Deliverance).

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I'm more surprised they're only addressing mch burst, because it's around the same line with brd and even melee (except they need a debuff prior). Brd burst doesn't trail that far behind and there's less counter plays to it, on top of that they have the new paeon which is pretty damn powerful against certain teams.

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Right!? That's what I"m thinking, idk, this just seems like SE is listening to a handful of whiners that play the ultimate DPS, and don't want to be killed from range. I haven't even heard nearly the outcry on MCH like there was on WAR/SMN to justify any changes at all. It's strong no doubt, but no more strong then MNK or DRG, and arguably equal to lesser strong then those key classes.

I just love that MCH is more of a "Support DPS" class because I can bind people who are annoying, slow weak people trying to run away, and 2 forms of stun. Honestly MCH is the only DPS class in the game that doesn't get a form of healing (which is why at every end match it's literally 0 HP recovered). Making MCH the only class that has to go all out and put it's faith that the healer is worth a damn over any other class (it ain't much, but second wind can make the difference between a 5 HP save with a Cure II, or dead.)

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

Really? God I hope that's not what he was refering to, that's not even a 30% difference, more like 10%, and even then, WAR has the highest base HP in the game, so that isn't even remotely a "Nerf" That's putting bubble wrap around a knife and saying it kills people less. Sure you can't cut em, but you can definitely still stab em.

@Myon88 Agreed, if it's something light like that, I would be fine with it, as long as it doesn't effect the kit over all, PVP perks, alright tweek em. But if they pull a "SMN Style" Castration of MCH, I'm just going to lose it.

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Let's see. 15-20% damage lost from VIT changes alone, on top of Tanks losing the additional damage they gained in pvp, which was 10%.

I saw this coming

Between the Eyes is far more powerful than Farshot.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I saw this coming

Between the Eyes is far more powerful than Farshot.

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While I do agree farshot needs some adjustment in light of the ranged changes (it essentially discourages you from attacking at max range), when you 1:1 their overall burst, BtE is really unconventional compared to a barrage empyreal, as well as ricochet with it's secondary damage. On top of that, BRD arguably has better healer pressure and more sustained damage due to DoTs and bloodletter reset, while MCH's damage outside of their burst is laughable and any other utility outside of that is really bleh (no warden's paeon, no self heals)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

BRD arguably has better healer pressure and more sustained damage due to DoTs and bloodletter reset, while MCH's damage outside of their burst is laughable and any other utility outside of that is really bleh (no warden's paeon, no self heals)

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It almost seems like they ought to just try to decrease the ammo/proc gap a bit. Trim from burst, and add a bit to non-burst. That, or they really shouldn't be touching MCH much at all, imo; work on improving Bard's burst slightly instead to bring it more in line with MCH and other killers, such as by increasing Far Shot's damage, reducing its CD, and/or giving it some bonus effect, maybe turning it into a 30s skill that allows you to ignore the range penalty briefly while increasing range per target hit scored during the duration, etc. Or change it out completely. Or any other way of giving Bards something more than just EmpBar burst.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It almost seems like they ought to just try to decrease the ammo/proc gap a bit. Trim from burst, and add a bit to non-burst. That, or they really shouldn't be touching MCH much at all, imo; work on improving Bard's burst slightly instead to bring it more in line with MCH and other killers, such as by increasing Far Shot's damage, reducing its CD, and/or giving it some bonus effect, maybe turning it into a 30s skill that allows you to ignore the range penalty briefly while increasing range per target hit scored during the duration, etc. Or change it out completely. Or any other way of giving Bards something more than just EmpBar burst.

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Honestly I feel they're both about right, with the exception of far shot. You can't really look at MCH's burst solely from the value because two of their skills require special circumstances to deal it's full damage, a specific debuff (and supressive/stun gun is unreliable for this application), and for the target to be alone (this includes egis and fairies, otherwise ricochet goes from a 300 potency to 200 or lower). All things considered, BRD doesn't necessarily need a stronger burst when their only setback is having 2 DoTs on a single target, on top of that they already have paeon's which is invaluable in a PvP setting. Farshot definitely needs to be changed though,it's gimmick is entirely moot if they did away with range penalty (which honestly shouldn't even exist anymore if their damage output is balanced around using WM and GB, and especially when the primary advantage of free-moving weaponskill is rendered moot)

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

WAR doesn't have the highest base HP in Deliverance, either; they only have more HP in Defiance, which takes Fell Cleave off the table and forces them to use Inner Beast (or sacrifice that HP cushion to switch back to Deliverance).

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Just want to say this isn't true, if you get your WAR, DRK and PLD all to the same ilvl with the same VIT attributes so all their VITs are the same number WAR actually has more hp than the other two even without tank stance. It's only a difference of about 150hp, but it is there.

DRK + PLD i222, 1226 VIT: 23,784hp
WAR i222, 1226 VIT: 23,914hp

Ya Rice has the right of it, BRD has a lot in it's tool kit for burst, and Blood Letter wasn't even mentioned with its ability to PRoc. A lot of times, as a MCH you have your big wombo Combo, then if you don't get a kill.... welp start kiting or annoying the healer, because you're really not putting out much for a good while, as opposed to BRD that can keep putting it down much more. I will say that BRD doesn't have the utility of MCH and may be a bit lesser than, but not by much to where MCH should get nerfed, it's to where BRD should get buffed. MCH feels like where ranged classes SHOULD BE in PVP. We get a PVP ability to heal, but that's it, an I guess you can put up parry for w/e that means to help defensively but for the most part, you are 100% committed to DPS and the lowest capability defensively of all DPS classes.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

Let's see. 15-20% damage lost from VIT changes alone, on top of Tanks losing the additional damage they gained in pvp, which was 10%.

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Also I don't understand this, how did they lose 10%, 15-20% I can get, but even then it's a gross exaggeration to me because it's really more like 10%. Not to mention you're trading off 10% DPS for a very large chunk of HP that makes you damn near unkillable. I've seen a WAR put down a double Berserk Fell Cleave and drop a healer, hell it's actually the strat most WAR's employee, is to just cleave the healer own quickly to win. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this, and frankly WAR could use a bit of a nerf in capability to be brought more in line with DRK but still above PLD's DPS.

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

Also I don't understand this, how did they lose 10%, 15-20% I can get, but even then it's a gross exaggeration to me because it's really more like 10%. Not to mention you're trading off 10% DPS for a very large chunk of HP that makes you damn near unkillable. I've seen a WAR put down a double Berserk Fell Cleave and drop a healer, hell it's actually the strat most WAR's employee, is to just cleave the healer own quickly to win. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this, and frankly WAR could use a bit of a nerf in capability to be brought more in line with DRK but still above PLD's DPS.

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...701.1459208587

That's the 10% I'm talking about. Tanks lost more than 10% from vit changes, not gonna do the research for you.

Was the healer good, or mediocre? Just saying "oh warrior dropped my healer" doesn't mean anything. Especially since I've seen PLD/DRK do the same.

What Warrior brings is its burst, for the trade of less utility. Paladin has Cover, Testudo, Clemency, and a ton of other utility. If you wanna nerf Warrior's core role, then I assume you want Paladin to lose some utility.

Warrior does not need to be brought down to DRK, DRK needs to be brought up to PLD/WAR.

..... did you just source content that predates the content in question....

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

..... did you just source content that predates the content in question....

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Yes, yes I did.

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

Also I don't understand this, how did they lose 10%.

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^That is why. You realize what I linked is currently in affect?

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Originally Posted by Houston009

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...701.1459208587

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Unless I'm missing something here, all jobs including warrior, paladin and DRK have a 10% damage dealt increased over their class counterparts. The change back then was done to discourage people from going in as classes insteadof jobs.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Unless I'm missing something here, all jobs including warrior, paladin and DRK have a 10% damage dealt increased over their class counterparts. The change back then was done to discourage people from going in as classes insteadof jobs.

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...d0980ac2b5a39c

"[2.0][3.0] Damage bonuses for tanks have been reduced in PvP encounters."

I may have over-exaggerated the net loss as 30% (Many tanks say they lost 30% in PvP). The reduction may have gone to 5,3, or even 1%. However, that loss of damage bonus + the physical vuln 10+% on every JOB + vit changes = 25%~ damage loss as a tank.

Also, you should've made this thread in the actual PvP section so that more PvPers know this thread exist.

They seem to have omitted any MCH PvP changes in the 3.25 notes which just came out. Perhaps they had a change of heart?

Welp this has become diluted with irrelevant numbers from previous patches, and exaggerated guestimates.... But MCH PVP adjustments have been at the least delayed for now, if not nullifid, so lt's hope it stays that way.

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

Welp this has become diluted with irrelevant numbers from previous patches, and exaggerated guestimates.... But MCH PVP adjustments have been at the least delayed for now, if not nullifid, so lt's hope it stays that way.

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"irrelevant numbers from previous patches." LOL you are a funny one. Typical forumer.

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

Welp this has become diluted with irrelevant numbers from previous patches, and exaggerated guestimates.... But MCH PVP adjustments have been at the least delayed for now, if not nullifid, so lt's hope it stays that way.

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Comparing i240 gear the tanks lost 16% damage from the tank changes. At i150 the loss is about 19%.