Lore Farming, A Sad State of Affairs

The night before reset and I count on two hands the number of tanks and healers that just simply die and refusE to resurrect.

You can only report so many times before you're just completely turned off to Feast for a while. Especially since you can't find out if anything happens or if your report is even looked at.

Sigh. 500/1000 for life.

Yeah this is why I've always disliked having pve rewards for pvp content.

This even goes as far back as people farming light in frontlines secure before slaughter was a thing, and then even in slaughter when it came out.

I get that they need to bolster the amount of people doing this content because, let's face it, the pvp community isn't the majority in this game, but man it sucks sometimes.

At the same time though, in my opinion, I think it would be worse to have 20-30+ minute queues for an 8 min(max) arena match instead of the 5-8 minute queues I get currently.

You limit the reward to the winning team and this nonsense is a no issue. The people that love pvp will still do it and as long as they win will still be able to cap their lore every week in pvp. Even at my current 56% winrate at feast i would still cap lore every week if only the winning team got rewarded, I pvp that much.

I agree the winning team should get lores, maybe up the reward to 14-18 Lores though? Yes this could potentially be way to easy to get lores, but the people who will win 90% of games were gonna cap anyways with how much they play xD

It's unfortunate that almost every system devised for checks and balances has the potential to be abused.

A possible seperare PvP commendation system to lock out certain players for a period of time based on the number of negative comms received. Limit the daily amount players can give negative comms and over a period of time you'd notice a pattern. But that can obviously be abused.

Or...

If a player doesn't accept a res or fails to spawn back after a countdown (maybe 10 additional seconds after the initial 5 sec countdown is up) they are removed from the instance, their score is affected and they experience a total df cool down. The rest of the party left in the arena will not lose ranks. This can also be abused.

Sigh.

take lore out of ranked matches too.

It's a difficult thing to balance honestly.


How about this.

Win X / Loss X

Win Ratio : X %

Disconnections : X

AFK Report(PVP): X

Win/Loss/Disconnections will determine who you are matched with. Players who disconnect too often will have a harder time being matched. Players with a high loss ratio will be matched with other players with a high loss ratio. If reported for being AFK it will go into your record. If Damage dealt + Healing received + healing dealt =>15k You gain a positive match performance rating. If it is <15k you do not gain a positive rating. If it is less than 10k you gain a negative match result rating. PVP commendation can be added to help garner Positive match rating. The better you do over 15k the more positive rating you should earn. This is all separate from our actual Rating for ranks.

If you have Positive match rating you will be matched with players with a Positive match rating.

If you have negative match rating you will be matched with less players overall.

After 10 AFK(PVP) reports a player should be investigated and determined whether they are disrupting matches i,if found to be losing on purpose by a GM they should garner negative rating.

Maybe this would dissuade others from losing on purpose.

Our Rank emblems should be displayable next to our names and right click examine PVP profile option should be added where it shows your W/L/DC/, however AFK reports should be hidden inside examine.

(PVP)AFK Reports, Disconnects, and poor play can lead to negative rating and cause extension of queue times and being matched with less players. Positive PVP behavior rating can be gained through PVP commendations, Doing well in matches and not going AFK.(as well as your character remaining in the match till the end.)

PVP negative behavior rating can be improved by gaining positive behavior rating.

In order to become a PVP mentor you must have X amount of matches played, Positive behavior rating, and x amount of PVP commendations.

To balance out the possibility of healers just using a bot for AoE healing, Healing dealt should be weighted at 75% of healing dealt in the formula maybe.

People PvP for tomestones because they enjoy the challenge of PvP whereas grinding expert dungeons are mind numbing and boring. You should ask the devs to make PvE content more interesting, otherwise people are going to flock towards PvP to break up the dullness of PvE.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum, where doing the same PVE runs through roulettes is a total bore, and I'd be screwed when I do want to raid if I couldn't cap through pvp. I haven't been raid progressive since savage coil, and burned myself out on roulettes when 3.0 dropped(alwaysrreap and fractal continuously fml) to raid with my FC. Since SA3, I've just used Frontlines and Friday Night Fights in the Fold to keep up to date on tome gear. As an avid PVP and casual PVE player, it would detriment me if they separated the two rewards.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

People PvP for tomestones because they enjoy the challenge of PvP whereas grinding expert dungeons are mind numbing and boring. You should ask the devs to make PvE content more interesting, otherwise people are going to flock towards PvP to break up the dullness of PvE.

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That's not related to people who jump into a PvP game, afk for a quick loss and get tomestones for it. I hardly think "boredom of PvE" the cause, or at the very least, making PvE content more interesting wouldn't solve it.

We're not talking about people who honestly want to try PvP and have fun. Ill take a horrible player who is willing to learn any day.

It's the lazy lore farmers who literally ruin the Feast match for the entire party that we're focusing on.

I like the people who are ignoring the problem by saying people PvP for an alternative for lore. No one is saying getting lore is bad. What is bad is people who join ranked matches and sit around doing nothing so they can get their cap with 0 effort put in. That is the issue and it will continue to be abused until they do something about it.

I get that it's annoying, but the only quick fix I see to the issue would be to separate the rewards; strictly pvp xp and wolf marks for pvp, tomes for PVE and that would detriment a lot of players, including me, who enjoy being able to achieve both goals by playing a game mode I enjoy then divvying up my time between pvp and .....expert roulette /bleh.

The option to remove tomes on a loss is also shortsighted, I play to win, but I don't really care if I win/lose since PVP is cathartic xD, and a loss still contributes to my tome cap.

Maybe they should shorten the afk timer to 1min, booting the perp with a 30 min penalty and no reward?

I can't count how many times we've begged SE to address this issue. It was a problem when Secure came out, turned Slaughter into a utter waste of time, and plagued the end of week matches for Seize right up until the release of Feast. They should have known this was going to happen. I understand that they want to tempt as many people into PvP as possible, you can't create an exploitable system without expecting someone to exploit it. Rewarding toxic players for poisoning the game mode is a mistake.

They should definitely address this issue. Punishing the offenders would be the best option, but it is also the least viable because it's not possible for SE to know when a player is intentionally sabotaging a match by being AFK or flat out Alt-tabbing during the match (which I have seen a player openly admit to). AFK timers help, but the leftover 3 players still get the shaft and are equally punished by being a man short. So, I'm not sure that's the best option either. Short of having a moderator spectate each match, directly targeting the offenders is probably not going to work. So, as far as I can see, the best alternative we have is to try to prevent the problem before it happens by reducing lore rewards for losses. PvP'ers who are there to actually play the game mode won't care, because they are queuing for for fun, not rewards. Tome farmers; however, will be forced to either pitch in for maximum rewards or run other content to get their easy fix.

I wonder if this happens on JP side as well, probably not. I don't think I have seen it on EU DC yet, though I don't pvp all day...
This is why we can't have nice things.

Just ran into one of these "I'm just here for lore" whms. Claims he only there for lore and when I tell him "Good for you. Enjoy your losses, cause that's all your gonna do" he gonna claim he has won every match lol. Does a complete 180 and starts bragging about how many games he wins despite being unranked. Suppose it was only a matter of time before I ran into one of these clowns.

It was bad on Tuesday for the few matches I got into that morning. Seen several people, while not entirely afk, just run head first into the enemy base and die. Same with healers who just stood in the middle while we all died.

I wouldnt be against that whole "only winners get tomes" suggested by Dimitri in the other forum.

easy fix losing team gets NOTHING. NO TOMES NO EXP NO MARKS problem solved

I'd rather not see the losing team get NOTHING. As a new player starting out in PVP, it can be difficult to win consistently. Getting ABSOLUTELY NOTHING each loss makes it less likely the players will stick around, and like it or not all the hardcore players NEED new blood joining. Queues will only get longer with less people participating.

In addition, there's the cases where both sides put in a solid effort, but one team ekes out a win. Every other piece of content for PVE rewards, if you put in a certain amount of work, you'll walk away with your rewards. In PVP, no matter what there has to be some losers.

Lastly, there's the matter of the other teammates. Maybe one leecher gets paired up with three other players who work like a well oiled machine, and the other team is nothing but a bunch of newbies who haven't even gotten the hang of their PVP abilities yet. The leecher STILL gets his reward in spite of this system. On the flipside, there's cases where three other people who should have been able to win a matchup fail because one random member is trying to leech.

I'd rather see a system of individual contribution, where dealing damage, inflicting debuffs, buffing party members, and healing award points (of course no points for putting up buffs that are already up or overhealing), and base the PVE rewards off of that, while keeping PVP rewards tied to which team wins or loses. That way, folks looking to gear up can still look at PVP as a viable option, while punishing people who leech.

I think the toxic players are responsible for this happening. I can understand if the people who have been taking lots of vitriol started doing this.

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Originally Posted by Slappah

Yeah this is why I've always disliked having pve rewards for pvp content.

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Its not really PvE rewards fault its the players fault, i have done my weekly tome capping in FL's for ages now but that doesnt mean i go hurrdurr when it comes to PvP(only winning matters, 2/3rd places are both loser places). But amount of tomes you get after each match should depend if you win or lose, both giving same amount doesnt really encourage most players to aim for win.

1st place 20 lore 2nd place 10 lore 3rd place 5 lore, even if you get shit team you still get lil bit of tomes but winning would yeld most of them, thus making capping way more faster if you always aim for the win. For Feast only winning should give tomes as it already gives only 10 lore.

Eh? I didn't even notice that Feast gave out lores. Just went in for the PvP.

I agree that only the winning side should get lores if this is an issue. Never came across it on my data center though.

Here's what I think:

Not enough people are playing PvP and the incentives they keep adding (minions, mount, gear, etc) is only a temporary fix. From the looks of it, the devs have no intention of making PvP as hardcore as people want them to and the recent patch of making casters and healers easier to play further proves this. The devs want people to have an easier time to jump into PvP and hope that they stick around. The addition of tomestones was a thing since Wolves Den was created so that people had an incentive to PvP. If you make it where getting tomestones can only be earned by winning, I can bet that less people will be willing to try out PvP or stick around for it. Logically, you shouldn't get anything for losing, but due to the nature of DF players, I don't think anyone would enjoy losing due to their incompetent team and having nothing to show for it. You think it's bad now with newbies ruining ranked matches? It'll only get worse if you make it where items can only be gotten through victories.

I tried the feast as a brand new PvP player and while I had my share of fun, I am quickly losing interest since there's nothing else go for aside from glamours and I'm sick having teams break into a hissy fit the minute things go wrong. What PvP needs is better incentives and longer lasting power, not less incentives.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Just ran into one of these "I'm just here for lore" whms. Claims he only there for lore and when I tell him "Good for you. Enjoy your losses, cause that's all your gonna do" he gonna claim he has won every match lol. Does a complete 180 and starts bragging about how many games he wins despite being unranked. Suppose it was only a matter of time before I ran into one of these clowns.

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It's entirely possible to be there for lore and have a good win rate...

Mine was 70% until I hit bronze rank and proceeded to lose 16 straight.

This is getting ridiculous, here is a match I just had with one of these lore farmers which he basically exposes himself and lore farmers in general in PVP...

(You may have to zoom in)
http://i68.tinypic.com/2z4zns1.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/2ppeg6p.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/25zpmd1.jpg

As you can see in these screenshots the Lore farmers name is covered in the red boxes, At first he literally comes In and says to everyone he's basically only here for the lore tomes, nothing more nothing less and doesn't care for the win at all meaning he's a big liability because he just doesn't care and is selfish and In it for himself. I totally agree with the person who is marked Green, People come in expected to be carried (how many times do we hear this happening am i right?) and get the rewards and benefits when they're selfish and wont even help the team or be encouraging. He tried to BS / damage control what he was saying by stating that he will go for the win but only cares for raids not only is he hypocritical but he contradicts himself by saying he doesn't go out of his to master pve (which you need to for your class to even be good at raiding) but he cares solely about raids wtf, says a lot about him.

The game has started and we're all in the middle battling, I die because I got focused down hard, and he immediately says GG and gives up, Also stating they are better when the game has just started lol... So not only is he a very selfish individual but also one who discourages the team play, everyone was working great while he was spreading his nonsense around. We ask him nicely to try to win, One person dying is NOTHING at the start and is so easily turned around but this guy loses his incentive to try... This is the cancer that keeps spreading and this attitude needs to stop.

After all that we won the game, I came out with a great score with a large amount of medals and only one death... no thanks to that negative Nancy, But he complains it was a slow match (At least he joined unranked 8v8 I suppose), you know why? Because he didn't get his tomes in a minutes time are you serious? How self-absorbed can you get honestly. This also happens in ranked 4v4 matches and you can't excuse that.

Maybe it's a data center basis? In all my matches, I rarely had problems with people throwing games or being lazy. Or maybe that guy was purposely being that way to get a rise out of you.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Maybe it's a data center basis? In all my matches, I rarely had problems with people throwing games or being lazy. Or maybe that guy was purposely being that way to get a rise out of you.

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Regardless of his intentions, it's still a detriment to the game play of the other 3 players (or 7 if you want to include the other team in some cases). There's very little that can be donea obut it that odesn't involve GM intervention (assuming they even take action against this sort of thing)

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Maybe it's a data center basis? In all my matches, I rarely had problems with people throwing games or being lazy. Or maybe that guy was purposely being that way to get a rise out of you.

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I've had two games like this yesterday. There are some people that don't even do anything and just run in to feed points to the enemy team rather than Healing or fighting.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Maybe it's a data center basis? In all my matches, I rarely had problems with people throwing games or being lazy. Or maybe that guy was purposely being that way to get a rise out of you.

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That guy is on the same data center as us.

I don't know what else to say then. If I start getting the same people in my games over and over, I tend to take a break. That also reminds me that I been getting the same people in Feast 8 vs 8...

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Here's what I think:

From the looks of it, the devs have no intention of making PvP as hardcore as people want them to and the recent patch of making casters and healers easier to play further proves this. The devs want people to have an easier time to jump into PvP and hope that they stick around

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If you think that buff was to make it easier then your wrong. That change was to make it at least playable for casters.

As a blm before that buff I couldn't cast a single attack other then a thunder proc since they know my weakness.

Also it nerfed smn. I wouldnt call that making it easier for them.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

If you think that buff was to make it easier then your wrong. That change was to make it at least playable for casters.

As a blm before that buff I couldn't cast a single attack other then a thunder proc since they know my weakness.

Also it nerfed smn. I wouldnt call that making it easier for them.

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They specifically addressed the cast time thing because it was too hard for healers and BLMs to jump into without having prior PvP experience.

I do think we desperately need to bring more players into pvp, the more players we have the more justifiable it becomes for the devs to spend resources on us (and the ugly reality is that the inverse is also very true). But yeah tome rewards probably arent the best way to do that ... by drawing in people who just want easy lore its just going to frustrate people there to compete. A shot at exclusive gear and an exclusive housing item should be enough. Honestly, I think it'd be better just to ditch lore rewards alltogether.

In response to Op tho, why are you convinced that all those people were there for Lore? I dont really see how the present system prevents abuse from anyone who has a buddy with an alt. It sucks because its going to hurt queue times, but I think they do need strict rank matching to prevent this from turning into triple triad tournament 2.0. Maybe there are other possible solutions, idk. But yeah, hate to seem like Im trying to start something, but if this is an issue they need to deal with it now during preseason

I've often wondered whether or not people do this, but I've yet to see anyone attempt it. I'm sure these sort of people will be few and far between.