Job System details

In a recent interview Yoshi-P gave a brief explanation of the job system and i must say it left me quite confused. I thought that Classes and jobs just went to together as in you have to become a paladin at 30, not doing so would have no advantage. But he seems to imply that they can be separate things.... why would you play a 50GLD instead of a 50 Pally?

The way i understood it before, jobs were simply a name, extra abilities and the ability to equip job specific gear.... that's all. What do you think?

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Massively: Will the jobs that are previewed going to be linked to specific classes, or will they be somewhat more flexible?

Naoki Yoshida: To answer that question, we're just going to go into a little bit of an explanation of this job system. Let's say you're looking to become a Paladin and unlock the job. What we're planning is that you can get your Gladiator to level 30 and you also get your Marauder to level 15 -- and please note that these numbers are not set in stone. When both conditions have been met, you can unlock a quest, which you can accept to unlock the Paladin job.

Once that class is unlocked, you will earn a job stone (again, not necessarily the final name). When you equip that, you can change your class into the Paladin job. Beyond the level 30 quest through which you get the job stone, there will also be quests at, say, levels 35, 40, 45, and 50 -- just as an example -- that deliver you the story of the Paladin job.

The level of the jobs will always be connected with the base class, so by earning experience as a Gladiator, you will make your Paladin stronger, and any experience earned as a Paladin will go toward your Gladiator experience. There's no necessity to go and raise your Paladin separately from your Gladiator. However, there will be job-specific weapons and armor, and to unlock these, you'll need to do the quests after unlocking the jobs. Similarly, weaponskills and abilities won't be earned through levels but by doing those quests. Experience is how you improve your classes, but the quest chains are how you improve your jobs.

Obviously, the question is what's different between a class and a job. After discussing with the battle team how we wanted to do this, we decided that for light parties and casual play, we wanted players using the class system where you can freely mix and match abilities to make an all-around type of character. Jobs we want to make more specialized, like you see in a lot of other MMOs, such as where the Paladin would be designed as a tank. They have special abilities to defend other party members, and while attack power might be lower, they'll have abilities that will enhance defense and allow them to play a certain role in their party.

Of course, during this job system, to make sure that the job is specialized, there won't be as much freedom in using abilities of other classes. Players will be able to play a specific role, and with that they'll be able to know their roles in high-end battles that require more tactics and a more specific type of playstyle, rather than solo battles, which are more open and where we'd rather have players be using the class system to meet a more flexible style.

The best way of thinking about it is probably two different modes of character fighting style depending on what type of content you'll be playing.

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I suspect that being on Paladin means there'll be more limitations on what abilities you can equip cross-class? Really, nobody is sure yet what the job system will bring, and we're not even sure what class actions are going to look like after 1.20 yet, so the best advice is just to sit tight until the devs say something ^^

Very interesting. Can you link me the full interview pls?

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Originally Posted by Munba

Very interesting. Can you link me the full interview pls?

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...oki-Yoshida%21

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/10...naoki-yoshida/

What I found very interesting is that experience points gained on Paladin will be put towards Gladiator.

They are saying your Paladin IS your Gladiator, but in a more tank defined roll.

I like it.

What we don't know is how the jobs are built up for example, a Paladin could have a better tanking build over Gladiator overall, which then Gladiator could be made more open ended and focused on offensive side of things -- Which Yoshida states they're looking into making Gladiator more offensive.

So we really have to see how they're played and built up to really understand the system. He already explained jobs were more specialized in group settings while classes will remain how they are (open ended).

sound like you re fix in the equip and cant add materia

ninja edit: can i have 2h sword on GLA pls ?

This seems pretty cool, but I really wonder if they're going to be able to effectively make it so that 6 or 8 Jobs in a group is better/more efficient than 6-8 Classes with hybrid abilities. Sure the hybrid classes are going to be a little worse at the roles the jobs specifically focus on, but they'll also be able to do everything. I just wonder if a system where each individual is really good at 1 thing is going to end up better than everyone being OK at a lot of things.

mmmm i still dont quite understand.. so you can be a Glad 50 and a paladin 50? very very strange

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Originally Posted by Darkhaund

mmmm i still dont quite understand.. so you can be a Glad 50 and a paladin 50? very very strange

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Your Paladin IS your Gladiator.

If you're a level 30 Gladiator, when you unlock Paladin, it will be level 30.
If you're a level 42 Gladiator, you're a level 42 Paladin.

Paladin is a specialization of the Gladiator class used for tanking. You lose the "hybrid" abilities you have as a Gladiator, and in place of those you have specialized Paladin abilities for survival, tanking and protecting party members.

Makes sense.. i am just "afraid" that they SE IS AFRAID to completely TRASH the Armoury system. Heck if they are makinga NEW GAME.. why not go ahead and make aNEW system rather than this "Frankenstein" thing they are doing?

I can clearly see a "glitch" or balance problem like someone mentioned above where a 50 GLD can out do a paladin with its hybrid abilities and that people end up wanting to play the classes rather than the JOB

I suspect the Job system will -really- come into its own when disciplines wind up having more than one associated job. Granted this may not be for quite a while, but there's a lot of potentially fun design space here to explore. I'm looking forward to it.

Wht are you talking about?
Examples?

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Originally Posted by Darkhaund

Makes sense.. i am just "afraid" that they SE IS AFRAID to completely TRASH the Armoury system. Heck if they are makinga NEW GAME.. why not go ahead and make aNEW system rather than this "Frankenstein" thing they are doing?

I can clearly see a "glitch" or balance problem like someone mentioned above where a 50 GLD can out do a paladin with its hybrid abilities and that people end up wanting to play the classes rather than the JOB

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When they first announced that change in leadership roughly a year ago I have to admit that I was hoping they would trash the armory system as well. However, I think that all they really need to do is add some more restrictions to keep it from being a giant melting pot (or, "Frankenstein" system lol - that description fits really well actually) where everyone is using nearly the same abilities as everyone else. And it looks like they're doing just that with consideration of the last couple big patches and 1.20 just around the corner. I'm definitely excited about learning about the class changes which they have planned for 1.20 - hopefully we'll know sooner than later.

And as far as the question of whether someone would rather use a hybrid class vs. a specialized job, hopefully the job will be specialized in such a way to where is simply out performs any sort of hybrid-version of a class. (I mean, personally I'm optimistic that the jobs will out perform the classes in large-group content). For example, hopefully a PLD can take hits from [insert-giant-boss-here] for say 100 or 200 points of damage per hit (arbitrary numbers of course), whereas a GLA would be getting hit for 500 or 700 points of damage even with all its hybrid-equipped damage mitigating abilities used/up. Obviously, then, no one in their right mind would want to go into that fight as a hybrid GLA instead of a PLD.

From what I read from that interview, this is exactly what they have stated all along. I remember them saying way back when, that Jobs would be for full group and classes would be for solo/casual/light party. Anyone concerned about if they can pull it off, and make Jobs more effective than classes can stop specualting. Classes = more versatility and less power in a specific role, and Jobs = little/or no versatility and more power in a specific role. For examlpe, Blm might be 15% more powerful of a nuker than just using thm or con nukes. Pld might be 15% more of a better tank than either mrd or gla. Im not stating these as concrete facts, but just as examples as to I beleive it will play out. Meanwhile, Classes will be good for solo content and light party situations, where people need to be more flexible due to lack of members. I don't understand the people that somehow think that max cross-classed built roles would be better than Jobs. Its like your either a master of 1 role and not able to do any others, or you go with being a jack of all trades but a master of none. Pretty straight forward, if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Amsai

I don't understand the people that somehow think that max cross-classed built roles would be better than Jobs. Its like your either a master of 1 role and not able to do any others, or you go with being a jack of all trades but a master of none. Pretty straight forward, if you ask me.

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I don't think a single cross-class build will be better than a single Job. My question is if you have a party of 8, why are 8 Jobs with specific roles going to be better than 8 Jack-of-all-trades, or maybe 7 with 1 Paladin. I think that balance is going to be hard to pull off.

What would you like more in your full party raid?
1 CON and 1 THM as hybrid classes or 1 CON and 1 THM spezialised as BLM and WHM to save your group better and help killing faster?

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Originally Posted by Felis

What would you like more in your full party raid?
1 CON and 1 THM as hybrid classes or 1 CON and 1 THM spezialised as BLM and WHM to save your group better and help killing faster?

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That's not really the equation. It's more like, what would you want, 1 BLM and 1 WHM, or 8 people with Cure and Damage spells, who also attack and do everything else.

Think of it like percentages. If 1 WHM fulfills the "WHM role" at 100% efficiency, but 4 hybrid classes fulfill the role at even just 30% efficiency each, that's still 20% more "WHM powa" than the single WHM.

Of course that's a very rough kind of analysis, but you get what I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Darkhaund

Makes sense.. i am just "afraid" that they SE IS AFRAID to completely TRASH the Armoury system. Heck if they are makinga NEW GAME.. why not go ahead and make aNEW system rather than this "Frankenstein" thing they are doing?

I can clearly see a "glitch" or balance problem like someone mentioned above where a 50 GLD can out do a paladin with its hybrid abilities and that people end up wanting to play the classes rather than the JOB

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Initially I thought that adding jobs would make classes somewhat obsolete, but seeing that there's interviews where Yoshi talks about giving the player choices for different sides of the game makes me think that maybe it's not so.

I see this as a little Frankenstein'ish myself lol, but it's got to be a nightmare to balance the combat with classes as well as jobs.

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Originally Posted by Travesty

That's not really the equation. It's more like, what would you want, 1 BLM and 1 WHM, or 8 people with Cure and Damage spells, who also attack and do everything else.

Think of it like percentages. If 1 WHM fulfills the "WHM role" at 100% efficiency, but 4 hybrid classes fulfill the role at even just 30% efficiency each, that's still 20% more "WHM powa" than the single WHM.

Of course that's a very rough kind of analysis, but you get what I'm saying.

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But then those classes could be losing out on some other aspect.

you can have 1 whm focusing on their job, or have 4 people doing it. But those 4 people are also supposed to be DD, so every time they toss a cure they lose out on an attack round.

I dunno about you, but when I play Lancer I don't want to stuck healing unless its vital for the PT's survival. Same goes when I play any melee class sans Gladiator because Cures are an awesome provoke.

Why have 4 people spamming Cure II when you can have a WHM using Cure IV, or better yet, Curaga II?

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

But then those classes could be losing out on some other aspect.

you can have 1 whm focusing on their job, or have 4 people doing it. But those 4 people are also supposed to be DD, so every time they toss a cure they lose out on an attack round.

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Yes, they'd be losing out on other aspects, just like every other party member, because they are a jack of all trades. That's my point. A jack of all trades never is going to be the best at 1 thing. But are 8 of them going to be good enough at everything to make it so that a best of 1 thing is not needed.

Think of it this way. If you compare mathematically a party of 8 hybrid classes to one with 8 Jobs, each of the hybrid classes has to perform at 12.5% of the efficiency of a role that 1 of the jobs is taking. Obviously they're not all going to match that % exactly in equal amounts, but you have to wonder why 8 jack of all trades won't be able to collectively perform the same way or better than a group of 8 defined Jobs can.

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I dunno about you, but when I play Lancer I don't want to stuck healing unless its vital for the PT's survival. Same goes when I play any melee class sans Gladiator because Cures are an awesome provoke.

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Obviously people who want to DD aren't going to want to cure, but if it's a more efficient way to get things done then that might not matter.

Not only will jobs fullfill a more specific role, it sounds like they will often be a completely different role. I am going from an Archer to a Bard?

How can any of you sit here and claim what WHM and BLM can do, when none of you even have the slightest idea of how the jobs WHM.BLM will change the current classes?

This thread is full of debate on unfounded speculation.

When you lowman easier stuff, why would you want to play PLD when all it can do is tank?

When you fight Ifrit, why would you want to play GLA when Ifrit hits for so much damage and you have party full of specialized DPS Jobs that do more damage than you ever could as GLA?

In almost all games, not just MMOs, jacks-of-all-trades excel on their own and with small groups while a team of specialists is able to accomplish more than a team comprised of generalists. It's highly unlikely they won't be able to easily accomplish this with FFXIV as well.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

In almost all games, not just MMOs, jacks-of-all-trades excel on their own and with small groups while a team of specialists is able to accomplish more than a team comprised of generalists. It's highly unlikely they won't be able to easily accomplish this with FFXIV as well.

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^this,

people forget that paladin isn't just about "tanking", but also a major role is damage mitigation for them, and the party. Possibly even manipulating hate depending on how you want to look at it. Not sure if they will outsource this to a different job.

White mage and black mage respectively could operate as if you split ffxi's scholar in half. Giving an extended library of spells, and abilities, potency, mp management to each and enhance in the preexisting spells/abilities. (cure, protect, etc.,) also add traits.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Why have 4 people spamming Cure II when you can have a WHM using Cure IV, or better yet, Curaga III?

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Fixed. :P

Wants jobs nao!

Personally I want some sort of grind involved when we get the job to learn our new found abilities. That could also mean that within each quest they give you, to attain abilities - they also give you a basic tutorial of how the skill works. So as the story unwraps, even though you might be a level 50 glad, you're still learning about your future-current job as a paladin.

Realized I had more to say than just responding to people wondering if it would work...

If they can pull this system off properly (it is a lot of work to balance) it could be a big step forward in balancing in the MMO world. Typically games have a difficult time of maintaining balance across all their content, because of the inherent strengths of different types of classes. For instance, a specialist will have an easy time doing large-scale PvE content because that's where they shine, but if they are too specialized soloing may be utterly impossible and they'll end up needing help to do everything. On the other side you have a jack-of-all-trades who can solo even some things intended for groups and has tricks for any opponent in PvP, but no one will invite them to any parties because they can't fill a specific role.

You can see this in FFXI (or could at least, I haven't played since the add-on BS) almost to an extreme. Jobs like bard were massively beneficial to parties and thus got invited to everything, but they needed help with everything that could "normally" be done solo, while jobs like beastmaster were amazing soloists but never got invited to anything. This is also the reason WoW introduced "dualspec," allowing people to choose a more well-rounded build for PvP and a more specialized one for PvE (generally).

If classes are still good generalists and jobs are true masters of one thing, and they level up together, you'll end up with an automatic situation where people have one solution for solo and another for big groups. In this way content can be balanced separately, and you don't have any of one bleeding into the other. Characters will neither be so similar there's no point in picking, nor will they be so different they're helpless without a group, because the player will always have both options.

I see this as the ability to have options. one can slap on the job Paladin to be a more effective tank and be great in NM battles etc. However when doing regular mobs, or lower level solo nms it would be nigh impossible because of low dps. i like the brd example from ffxi. With this new suggestion an arc can now slap on brd and be invited to ifrit battles and slap on arc for other types of content. Versatility is always welcome!

as much as i dont mind the job system, it really does feel like a "tack on" to say "hey look we have final fantasy jobs".

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Originally Posted by Coglin

How can any of you sit here and claim what WHM and BLM can do, when none of you even have the slightest idea of how the jobs WHM.BLM will change the current classes?

This thread is full of debate on unfounded speculation.

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Well, historically WHM does one thing better than most: Healing.

BLM, historically does one thing better than most: Nuking.

Throughout the years the only thing that changed with these two particular jobs is their weapon of choice (WHM: Bow, Club, Staff, BLM: Dagger, Scythe, Staff, Club) and spell set, so unless they turn WHM into a DD..it's a pretty safe bet on what their implementation will be.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Well, historically WHM does one thing better than most: Healing.

BLM, historically does one thing better than most: Nuking.

Throughout the years the only thing that changed with these two particular jobs is their weapon of choice (WHM: Bow, Club, Staff, BLM: Dagger, Scythe, Staff, Club) and spell set, so unless they turn WHM into a DD..it's a pretty safe bet on what their implementation will be.

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I am aware of what they do historicly, I think you are confused by my meaning. Perhaps you did not read the post earlier that I am refering to. Posters are posting about spells and abilities that may or may not be in game. Its not the general jobs, but the specifics people attempt to assume will be part of the job that may or may not, that I refere to.