[3.0] Craftsmanship and Control bonus parameters will be added to Souls of the Crafte

From the Preliminary patch notes .

Also, retainers at L30+ can now have Jobs. :)

I'm not a fan of the bonuses... because personally I want this specialist nonsense to go away (because SE still has just done a piss poor job of executing it). Depending on the size of the bonuses its just going to make my gearing potentially confusing due to differences in classes. ASSUMING I can make anything worth while with my other crafting classes, as SE continually neuters non specialist jobs.

Hi Kat! o/

I'm just happy my wife and I weren't wasting our time leveling omni-crafter alts to complement the Specializations we have on our omni-crafter mains.

Although now we will gear them for 2-star rather than just for the 1-star Specialist recipes. which means more Favor node and Ephemeral node running, and something to do with our stockpiled red DoH/DoL scrip. And more melding of course.

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Originally Posted by Katlyna

I'm not a fan of the bonuses... because personally I want this specialist nonsense to go away (because SE still has just done a piss poor job of executing it). Depending on the size of the bonuses its just going to make my gearing potentially confusing due to differences in classes. ASSUMING I can make anything worth while with my other crafting classes, as SE continually neuters non specialist jobs.

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Second this, also, anyone willing to take a guess how they will lock masterbook 4's out? 480 red scripts each is my guess. (I truly hope they do not do something like that, but at this point...)

They also killed the only market crafters had to sell back to gathers with releasing right side i180, and gathering materia is going to drop even further like a rock.

That they way it should of been from the start giving specialists bonus stats otherwise besides some of the locked items there was really no reason to be a specialist.

more specialist thingy, yay :|

bonus parameter for specialist is all good for me, better specialist skill is fine too, as long there is no specialist only recipe again for the future, just limit the omnicrafter with status requirement, or harder craft with less skill or whatever, make them as hard as possible, but not impossible, no need to limit the craft as specialist only...

I hope this is step one in getting rid of specialist recipes. I think everyone all along had been wishing specialist made non-omni crafters viable. Boosting their stats is a good way to do that, they can use simpler rotations, without needing ask the cross class skills. Yes specialist as a whole as currently implemented can DIAF, but this is a reasonable tweak back towards sanity

Personally I'm fine with Specialists getting a stat boost, as long as it isn't a huge bonus and they keep Specialist only recipes to a minimum (Or if there are more at least make them cosmetic only). I think it compliments those who don't have the original cross-class skills and is a nice bonus for those who do. If this had been added along with the Specialist skills on release I doubt there would have been as many complaints for Specialists being useless (Which is part of the reason people requested Specialist recipes in the first place).

Yay more specialist bonuses! \o/

I hope they keep adding such things. Makes the economy amazing, I have more gil than I've ever had thanks to this system.

They should kill specialist recipes, and just make the crafts difficult enough that those without the soul crafting bonuses cannot craft them without perfectly melded gear. This would give everybody their "monopoly" until the rest of the world catches up, and helps the economy by eventually driving the prices down (which, believe it or not, needs to happen for crafts to make the economy healthy for those who don't craft and have few gil income resources).

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Originally Posted by Mindy_Macready

They should kill specialist recipes, and just make the crafts difficult enough that those without the soul crafting bonuses cannot craft them without perfectly melded gear. This would give everybody their "monopoly" until the rest of the world catches up, and helps the economy by eventually driving the prices down (which, believe it or not, needs to happen for crafts to make the economy healthy for those who don't craft and have few gil income resources).

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We have different views of what a healthy economy is, apparently.

Specialist recipes give everyone something nice to sell and the price will never drop too much, so there's lots of gil circulating because people will sell their specialist things to buy other people's. That's a healthy economy, and it's great. Prices dropping isn't always a good thing (it never is for anyone but the buyer, actually).

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

We have different views of what a healthy economy is, apparently.

Specialist recipes give everyone something nice to sell and the price will never drop too much, so there's lots of gil circulating because people will sell their specialist things to buy other people's. That's a healthy economy, and it's great. Prices dropping isn't always a good thing (it never is for anyone but the buyer, actually).

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Ah, but therein lies the problem. People DON'T just buy the specialist things on the marketboard. Some super hardcore people level alts. Others just ask a friend to make it for them. No way in hell I'm paying 100k or 200k or whatever for pterodactyl leather to make the caster body piece to spiritbond or whatever, so screw that. I'll just go without it, or have a friend make it for me. Only problem is that now I have to bother a friend to do it, and they in turn have to ask me to do stuff, instead of doing it on our own time whenever. It's pretty inconvenient. So now, instead of people making gil off of it, I'm avoiding it entirely or avoiding paying for it with a friend. In theory, the idea works, but in practice, not so much. Kinda like communism, where practice never really comes close to the idea and stays that way.

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Originally Posted by OoglieBooglie

Only problem is that now I have to bother a friend to do it, and they in turn have to ask me to do stuff, instead of doing it on our own time whenever.

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Working as intended.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Working as intended.

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Crafting worked just fine before the introduction of specialist recipes, and the specialist system could've been changed to make the choices more appealing (like the bonus parameters to souls) instead of using restrictions on recipes.

One of the things I enjoyed about 2.x was the possibility of becoming self sufficient on one character, if I were to put enough effort into maxing out/gearing all the classes.
While this is still possible in 3.1, as I currently have three characters to cover all specialists, is kind of a pain to move items from one alt to another, since I can't use the mail system.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Working as intended.

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what do you mean 'as intended'? thay only added the SSR's cus the community was asking for them to do it to justify Specialist's existence


Specialist's intended design was to make it so ppl did not have to level all the other crafting classes and thay could just do the ones they wanted

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Originally Posted by AdamZ

Second this, also, anyone willing to take a guess how they will lock masterbook 4's out? 480 red scripts each is my guess. (I truly hope they do not do something like that, but at this point...)

They also killed the only market crafters had to sell back to gathers with releasing right side i180, and gathering materia is going to drop even further like a rock.

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Aren't they introducing Type-2 Counterfoils? They could be the gating for the new books along scrip tokens.

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Originally Posted by OoglieBooglie

So now, instead of people making gil off of it, I'm avoiding it entirely or avoiding paying for it with a friend.

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You're missing the point. Exchange is axiomatically good. Bartering with your friend is no less a form of economic exchange than buying stuff from a stranger. Looking for a more favorable arrangement and opting not to buy something when the price exceeds its value does not make economics wrong; that's the mechanism by which the system works.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

One of the things I enjoyed about 2.x was the possibility of becoming self sufficient on one character, if I were to put enough effort into maxing out/gearing all the classes.

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I enjoy being completely self-sufficient as well. I would also enjoy it if black mages were made invincible. What players enjoy is not always the same as what's good for the game.

SE has made the decision to keep their MMO an MMO and not a single player game. Even with crafting people need to climb out of their shell and work with others.

The common trend with most games is a faux multiplayer experience (see most phone games). My WAR cant use Cure or Medica etc, so I can see what they are doing with crafting.

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Originally Posted by Kakure

You're missing the point. Exchange is axiomatically good. Bartering with your friend is no less a form of economic exchange than buying stuff from a stranger. Looking for a more favorable arrangement and opting not to buy something when the price exceeds its value does not make economics wrong; that's the mechanism by which the system works.

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I understand the point. Exchanging goods with someone is indeed functionally the same as making something for trade, putting it up for sale, and using that gil to buy something else. In reality, people are incapable of making everything themselves, due to things such as skill ability and time. That's why we have specialized ourselves in real life. A person that specializes and spends all their time in repairing nuclear reactors will do much much better than someone who spends all their time farming, but due to time, its probably impossible to do both. Therefore it becomes more efficient for person A to solely repair nuclear reactors while person B grows food. Person A repairs person B's reactor (I have no idea why a farmer would have a nuclear reactor, but that's not the point of the argument, maybe they're in the middle of nowhere and that's the best power generation source there), and person B in turn provides person A with food. In the economics class I took, I believe the classic example was guns and butter. That system is what enabled us to rise from caves and fly into space. But in video games, it's different. There's no skill level developed over time that limits crafting ability in this game, the only difference is gear and a few cross class abilities (some classes have more or fewer skills that are used, so the amount needed to cross class is different from class to class). THERE IS NO NEED FOR PERSON A TO DEPEND ON PERSON B. Initially, it makes sense that people would focus on one class at first, and as such some people would temporarily depend on others (like a blacksmith would make the main/offhands for someone that wanted to focus first on leatherworker, while the leatherworker could make some gear for the blacksmith).

However, past a certain point, it becomes unnecessary and cumbersome. If you want to make maybe a hammer or something, you'll probably need some lumber from a carpenter (hammers tend to require lumber if I remember right). To get that lumber, you have a few options. You can make it yourself or trade for it. Typically, making it yourself is probably the easiest. To trade for it, you can either make an item and swap, or purchase with gil. To purchase with gil, you can make something else and sell it. However, either method of trading requires waiting on another person at some point. Trading requires finding someone and possibly waiting for them to craft it when they have time. Purchasing with gil involves putting stuff up for sale and then waiting for it to sell. Having a large quantity of gil on hand reduces the impact of that part, but it still has to be replenished, which involves time and waiting, while at the same time competing with others.

But wait, what if you suddenly want to go on a spiritbonding binge? You'll need a large quantity of materials, and will HAVE to trade or buy it. Buying it can get very expensive very quickly, especially as the price tends to rise as you buy out the cheaper things, and you may have to deal with the possiblity of the mb running out of stock. Trading will also require a fair bit of time from someone else, especially if you need something like an entire hq stack of whatever.

These kinds of things are why I dislike having to find other people to craft stuff. One item every now and then isn't a big deal, like having a faerie chandelier commissioned for your house in game. But if I just suddenly have the urge to produce something to spiritbond or something, it very quickly becomes a very large pain in the butt. It's actually a large part of the reason why I just got tired of spiritbonding sky pirate stuff in the diadem, because I would have to bug other people to make me the pterodactyl leather and stuff while I could have very easily done it myself with my gear. I don't know about you, but I refuse to pay 200k for pterodactyl leather (yes, it's 200k for nq on my server, I just checked) for a single mat to make a single piece of spiritbonding gear. Sure, I could just make my own stuff to sell for that same gil. But I would have to make 3-4 titanium alloy ingots to match that amount, AND hope someone doesn't undercut me before I can sell it. Instead of creating trade, it eventually just caused me to stop doing the action entirely. It's not helping two people who are really good at making 2 different things. Its forcing 2 people to not make the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Kakure

I enjoy being completely self-sufficient as well. I would also enjoy it if black mages were made invincible. What players enjoy is not always the same as what's good for the game.

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That's different. That would kill any sense of difficulty. That's like giving every recipe infinite durability. You're also not being included/excluded from raids because one thing requires a blm and another requires no blm. Raiding in inherently dependent on others, making an object is not.

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Originally Posted by OoglieBooglie

THERE IS NO NEED FOR PERSON A TO DEPEND ON PERSON B.

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And therein lies the problem, and what leads to an unhealthy, and boring, economy.

What you see as a problem in needing to rely on others, I see as a reason for my friend to finally level crafting, and us to be able to support each other. Before, there was no reason, for I could make it all.

Indeed, I could simply use my alts for the missing crafts. But that is not fun. Supporting each other is.

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Originally Posted by Kakure

I enjoy being completely self-sufficient as well. I would also enjoy it if black mages were made invincible. What players enjoy is not always the same as what's good for the game.

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Your comparison is very silly.

A crafter being self-sufficient was a possibility throughout 2.x and 3.0, before the introduction of specialist recipes.
This was a period of over two years, and crafting was just fine in those two years.

Black mages, on the other hand, have never been invincible for more than 2 melee hits, every 2 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Cleanse

SE has made the decision to keep their MMO an MMO and not a single player game. Even with crafting people need to climb out of their shell and work with others.

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Then they should've had a specialist system right from the release of 2.0, and not have a two year period where people could be self-sufficient, when enough effort was put into crafting.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

What you see as a problem in needing to rely on others, I see as a reason for my friend to finally level crafting, and us to be able to support each other. Before, there was no reason, for I could make it all.

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I have plenty of friends, none of them are all that interested in 2-star crafting. Should I be forcing them into crafting, just so I could be "supported" by another crafter? Surely that doesn't sound like an enjoyable experience for the one being forced into crafting.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

I have plenty of friends, none of them are all that interested in 2-star crafting. Should I be forcing them into crafting, just so I could be "supported" by another crafter? Surely that doesn't sound like an enjoyable experience for the one being forced into crafting.

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Find new friends that are.

Otherwise, go to the market board. Why are people so afraid to spend their gil? It's been pretty pointless to make gil up until now. Spend it!

specialist is the worst idea on this game,is forcing ppl to look for others,i dont care about the stats as long as they dont lock recepies behind specialists again.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Find new friends that are.

Otherwise, go to the market board. Why are people so afraid to spend their gil? It's been pretty pointless to make gil up until now. Spend it!

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Thanks for the chuckle, but I'll stick to enjoying the game with my current friends, the ones that I've known for years.

And this might be shocking to you, but I'm a crafter because I enjoy crafting things, not because of the gil that comes with it. Spending gil on crafted items kinda defeats the point for me, as I'd rather be crafting it myself. (Which is why I have 3 characters to cover all specialists, it's just a hassle to move items between characters)

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Thanks for the chuckle, but I'll stick to enjoying the game with my current friends, the ones that I've known for years.

And this might be shocking to you, but I'm a crafter because I enjoy crafting things, not because of the gil that comes with it. Spending gil on crafted items kinda defeats the point for me, as I'd rather be crafting it myself. (Which is why I have 3 characters to cover all specialists, it's just a hassle to move items between characters)

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Then I see this has created no issue for you. Ask them to remove that dumb limitation of not being able to mail things to your alts.

I also enjoy crafting things. Thing is, it's gotten boring when I can make everything myself. Sometimes it's nice to receive instead of giving all the time.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Then I see this has created no issue for you. Ask them to remove that dumb limitation of not being able to mail things to your alts.

I also enjoy crafting things. Thing is, it's gotten boring when I can make everything myself. Sometimes it's nice to receive instead of giving all the time.

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Or they could just remove the dumb limitation of 3 specializations. For example, by spending red scrips to unlock additional specializations, or some other thing that'll require effort on a player's part to unlock more specializations.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

We have different views of what a healthy economy is, apparently.

Specialist recipes give everyone something nice to sell and the price will never drop too much, so there's lots of gil circulating because people will sell their specialist things to buy other people's. That's a healthy economy, and it's great. Prices dropping isn't always a good thing (it never is for anyone but the buyer, actually).

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A healthy economy is one where things become affordable, eventually. This won't happen with specialist crafts. People will buddy up and form crafting communities so they don't have to pay crafting fees, while the ones crafting for the marketboard will always keep the crafter's fee on the crafts.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

That they way it should of been from the start giving specialists bonus stats otherwise besides some of the locked items there was really no reason to be a specialist.

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As one of those guys that has all specialists, yeah there is a big difference crafting the same items same gear specialist vs not specialist. But hey, free buffs!

Let's see bonuses before...

House workshop only give +10 SP.

Thinks bonus should be +10 control +10 craftmanship so not more :(

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Originally Posted by OoglieBooglie

That system is what enabled us to rise from caves and fly into space. But in video games, it's different.

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I disagree. I could gather all my own shards and go fishing each time I need to make something that requires shark oil, but it would be astoundingly inefficient. You and I might both be capable of mining our own adamantite, but that does nothing to change the system-level inefficiency of a situation in which one of us needs adamantite and the other is sitting on a large stockpile of it.

Go compare the market board on a populous server against the market board on a struggling server. That's why a robust economy with lots of trade is good, even in video games.

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Originally Posted by OoglieBooglie

Instead of creating trade, it eventually just caused me to stop doing the action entirely.

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Again, that's how the system works. If the price of pterodactyl leather is outrageous, switch specialties to take advantage of the situation. Find someone who is willing to barter with you or sell it for less. Stop making stuff with pterodactyl leather until the people selling it lower the price. Those are all valid choices, and none of them means that encouraging exchange and interdependence through specialization fails in practice.

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Originally Posted by OoglieBooglie

That's different. That would kill any sense of difficulty. That's like giving every recipe infinite durability. You're also not being included/excluded from raids because one thing requires a blm and another requires no blm. Raiding in inherently dependent on others, making an object is not.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Your comparison is very silly... Black mages, on the other hand, have never been invincible for more than 2 melee hits, every 2 minutes.

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You're both being too literal. The point is that what players want is not the same thing as what's good for the game. The developers have to take a long view and make decisions that promote the health of the game and the economy as a whole. Player fun is always a part of the equation, but it's not always an overriding concern.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Then they should've had a specialist system right from the release of 2.0, and not have a two year period where people could be self-sufficient, when enough effort was put into crafting.

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This is a much better argument against the specialist system. I think specializations make sense, but it is a jarring change from the way crafting was before 3.0 and there is a lot of tension between specializations and the core idea at the heart of the armory/class system.

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Originally Posted by MeridaQ

Hi Kat! o/

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Lol Hi Merida! Huggles!

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

And therein lies the problem, and what leads to an unhealthy, and boring, economy.

What you see as a problem in needing to rely on others, I see as a reason for my friend to finally level crafting, and us to be able to support each other. Before, there was no reason, for I could make it all.

Indeed, I could simply use my alts for the missing crafts. But that is not fun. Supporting each other is.

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The problem with this concept is it does nothing to deter the hardcore crafters. In fact, it only incentives them to level an alt or two and have immediate access to all the specialist benefits through a roundabout means. For many, that's a better alternative to being forced into nudging their friends constantly, and an especially better method to paying out the nose. Another issue derives by limiting the market, you ensure those hardcore crafters will focus on those items and be that much more likely to undercut you mercilessly. With a less exclusive pool, you keep people from attempting to monopolize.

This does nothing to stop the omni-crafters, it just inconveniences them.

leveled my last 60 job yesterday and i really don't know which specialist is better :(
BSM,GSM and Weawer it's a valid option to craft my 170 equip ?

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Originally Posted by Lialiin

leveled my last 60 job yesterday and i really don't know which specialist is better :(
BSM,GSM and Weawer it's a valid option to craft my 170 equip ?

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Congrats.
You don't need any specialist to craft your ilvl170 equip. But if you're aiming for the new bonus, I would suggest BSM specialist, since you will first want to craft all your offhands. They give the biggest upgrade.
Instead of looking at the ilvl170 equip, I would take a look at the current specialist recipes and see which ones you want to make and take that specialist.

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Originally Posted by Seyb

Congrats.
You don't need any specialist to craft your ilvl170 equip. But if you're aiming for the new bonus, I would suggest BSM specialist, since you will first want to craft all your offhands. They give the biggest upgrade.
Instead of looking at the ilvl170 equip, I would take a look at the current specialist recipes and see which ones you want to make and take that specialist.

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oh nice!
think that the 2* rotation posted in this forum need at least specialist skills.
ty

Most people have focused on 2 star crafting without specialist moves, as omnicrafters only have those moves on 3/8 of their crafting classes, and rotations involving those moves would not be applicable to over half of their classes.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

And therein lies the problem, and what leads to an unhealthy, and boring, economy.

What you see as a problem in needing to rely on others, I see as a reason for my friend to finally level crafting, and us to be able to support each other. Before, there was no reason, for I could make it all.

Indeed, I could simply use my alts for the missing crafts. But that is not fun. Supporting each other is.

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The problem with forcing other people to craft is that suddenly, for everything other than the few specialist crafts in the game, they suddenly don't need you for ANYTHING at all. Where before they could be lazy and spend some gil, now they can't afford even to do that.

Just like how favor mats and red scrip farming forced me to suddenly start gathering in order to avoid spending tons of gil. Suddenly I have no use for other gatherers.

The system is short-sighted in its goals and doesn't help the economy in the long run.