Tank nerf coming?

"The overall damage of a 3.2 VIT tank will be lower than a 3.15 STR tank"

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...terview_recap/

Why SE, Why?

Because tanks doing as much damage as Bards and Machinists is dumb, they're trying to solidify the roles a bit more clearly, there's nothing wrong with that. As long as the fights are balanced around the lower tank damage, what does it matter anyway? That the new expectation is a few hundred lower on Fell Cleave?

Because tanks should be doing the least amount of damage, they are there to hold agro not DPS. Having tanks to as much damage as Bards and other support DPS was ridiculous. They are just making the roles more clear and fights will be balanced around the change.

Dont panic.

If vitality gave as much damage as strength does now, then tanks would have a double bonus from the state they are in now.
If you go strength accessories you lose idk 4-5,000 hp. Vitality tanks now will get a dps increase in 3.2

get what i'm trying to say?

I think its because they have to balance raid DPS with what the expected tank contributions would be and making it higher because tanks can do more damage would make it harder for groups with non optimal tank players in them.

Either that or maybe the new vit formula makes it so that the combo of excess vit + same str as today's tank meta would trivialize content at some point.

Because tanks primary role is tanking, when tanks start edging out dps roles for damage, it creates a lot of problems.

Played a few MMO's where tanks were able to have builds that allowed them to out dps the primary melee dps class, it eventually led to melee dps roles never being invited to raids.

If you really want super high dps numbers, play a dps role.

in general on a training dummy, warrior can do 1,500 dps?
Bard is around 1,900 dps?

I don't use a parser I'm just trying to search around the web for numbers instead of assuming tanks do as much damage as bards and machinists.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Because tanks should be doing the least amount of damage, they are there to hold agro not DPS. Having tanks to as much damage as Bards and other support DPS was ridiculous. They are just making the roles more clear and fights will be balanced around the change.

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If you already have establiblished hate, there is no reason to not focus on damage at that point. Tanks are only doing more dps than supports when when the support player has a significant ilvl disadvantage, they are terrible, or they need to use their resource regen buffs all the time. This is really just a bandaid to make bad supports look less bad.

They are simply correcting an issue that made a situational build for tanks become the norm. Tanks were never intended to be DPS classes. I've seen many "tanks" since my return, even in leveling dungeons, that are more concerned with pumping out epeen numbers than actually tanking. Hopefully, this fix weeds out the dps who play tank to skip queue timers and encourages tanks to do well.

I love how a bunch of folks keep mentioning how close dmg between Bards and Tanks was getting... -__- maybe SE should finally give bard/mch some careful consideration to make them actually stand out as a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

I think its because they have to balance raid DPS with what the expected tank contributions would be and making it higher because tanks can do more damage would make it harder for groups with non optimal tank players in them.

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This is the best point I think I have seen in all the discussions of the incoming changes to tanks. If SE had not balanced Alex Savage around the current optimal tank and DD DPS things might have been different. Assuming so much tank damage was a big mistake. If you stop and think about it for a moment, it's pretty obvous that balancing for a STR based WAR's tank DPS creates a big problem for any group with any other kind of tank. Leading to the need for healer DPS to assist.

Along with fixing the balance so that support/DPS is better than tank DPS by a decent margin will reinforce roles, strengthen teamwork, and should simplify balancing content since it may be harder to circumvent the class/job balance now.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

I love how a bunch of folks keep mentioning how close dmg between Bards and Tanks was getting... -__- maybe SE should finally give bard/mch some careful consideration to make them actually stand out as a DPS.

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Even if you don't account for MCH/BRD, the numbers that a warrior can pull off as an off tank is still pretty damn ridiculous; it ends up devaluing the dps from the DD jobs.

No good DPS with comparable gear would lose to tank's dps only bad DPS do. In raids, when you have a tank that is off-tanking they are generally acting as a DPS until they need to tank something, which is where they won't be in tank stance to dish out close to dps numbers as OT.

It also did say that: Although it won’t be much lower and it will be compensated with the new gear. So, it doesn't seem like it will be a big drop. It's likely not gonna change how really good tanks will still out dps the average dps you see in duty finder or the general NA DPS.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Even if you don't account for MCH/BRD, the numbers that a warrior can pull off as an off tank is still pretty damn ridiculous; it ends up devaluing the dps from the DD jobs.

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I quite agree. Ive seen some Warriors do some crazy numbers with Fell Cleave. Makes my PLD jealous -__-;

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Originally Posted by DGladius

No good DPS with comparable gear would lose to tank's dps only bad DPS do. In raids, when you have a tank that is off-tanking they are generally acting as a DPS until they need to tank something, which is where they won't be in tank stance to dish out close to dps numbers as OT.

It also did say that: Although it won’t be much lower and it will be compensated with the new gear. So, it doesn't seem like it will be a big drop. It's likely not gonna change how really good tanks will still out dps the average dps you see in duty finder or the general NA DPS.

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Bad/severely undergeared players aside, a CLEAR distinction should still be made between DPS and tanks. Regardless of the stance they are in, a tank should NOT be able to pull comparable numbers to a DPS. (that should include a BRD or MCH).

In the recent dengeki interview I think it was (and there was a famitsu one too so I don't remember, yoshi's been busy), it was seemed to say that overall, vitality isnt going to give as large dps performance as strength does now.

So yes nerf it is...yup

Not a big one though, if the translations are correct.

http://www.famitsu.com/news/201602/15099357.html (https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...u-Translation?)
http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/001/221/1221731/ (um...google translate I guess....)

I'm not really sure where the feeling is coming from that I see: "Tanks need to carry all the bad players!" Aren't "bad players" equally divided out to all of the various roles? I'm not aware of tanks being made of magic in such that they just in general play better than the rest or something. Maybe tanks are just somewhat above suspicion? I know in the past, not many wanted to play tank, so the party didn't dare talk back to them or criticize them. Is that really still the case? I know people sometimes still decide to play tank because they still think that is the case though.... "Oh, I got in trouble a lot when i dpsed.... I know! I'll be a tank, they will have to worship me!" :/

I am glad the switch is coming although I often think how this will turn out for the people who don't like this.

Then they decide to stop tanking which will hinder duty finder.

I know some will decide to just go DPS after this maybe who knows maybe they won't.

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Originally Posted by Bloodb

in general on a training dummy, warrior can do 1,500 dps?
Bard is around 1,900 dps?

I don't use a parser I'm just trying to search around the web for numbers instead of assuming tanks do as much damage as bards and machinists.

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We really shouldn't use edge cases of people with absolute mastery of their Job. Rather, we should use the average, in which case, right now, as an above average player, I regularly find myself edging out random allies with just a couple of STR accessories. If I'm at full power, I'm just about as destructive as the average damage dealer.

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

We really shouldn't use edge cases of people with absolute mastery of their Job. Rather, we should use the average, in which case, right now, as an above average player, I regularly find myself edging out random allies with just a couple of STR accessories. If I'm at full power, I'm just about as destructive as the average damage dealer.

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Compare yourself to people at your skill level, not below.

I mean, I can go into Ark and be top 3 DPS (or, worse, #1...its happened, and I was main tank too...) as WAR. Compared to DPS at my level, I'm at the bottom.

Heck, my AST and SCH are rubbish geared, and I can out-dps the average DPS on them.


EDIT: Also, BRD at 1900 DPS. lol

I'm glad people mentioned that it was noted that there might be a slight decrease in overall tank damage with the VIT over STR focus now, however with increases in gear and item levels it'll truly be minor.

I'm not expecting perfection, nor hybrid Tank-DDs, but I am expecting tanky tanks who can hold enmity in defensive stances and still effectively contribute (not outshine) to group DPS in offensive stances. Nothing more, nothing less.

With tanks having more health I guess healers can dps more so it evens out with raid damage

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Originally Posted by papichulo123

With tanks having more health I guess healers can dps more so it evens out with raid damage

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No, not really. Everything is almost certainly (99.999% chance) going to hit harder as well to make up for it (also say goodbye to DPS/healers tanking anything for more than 2 seconds) and it will take more heals to get a tank back to full HP.

Expect both healers needing to heal most of the time, like back in the Coil progression days

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Originally Posted by PArcher

it will take more heals to get a tank back to full HP.

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Why do people keep bringing this up as if tanks need to be topped off 100% of the time? ._.

You call that a nerf?

It's a rework at best. You'll do more damage and have more health. So you won't have the full DPS of a strength tank with the health of a vit tank, so? Surely I can't be the only one who can see that would be overpowered as hell.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Why do people keep bringing this up as if tanks need to be topped off 100% of the time? ._.

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This.

I have a full VIT tank and a full strength tank in my static. I literally don't notice a difference healing the two, and neither of them effect my ability to DPS. I don't know why people keep saying 'oh vit tanks take more healing', because if their health gets so low that the extra vit makes a difference, then it would have been a wipe without it, so it's silly to complain....

Argument literally only applies to DRKs that use walking dead, and the very few mechanics where warriors have to holmgang, and even then it's one more physick at worst. Whoopdie freaking do. XD

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Expect both healers needing to heal most of the time, like back in the Coil progression days

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I also must say that I scholar'd my way through all of coil while it was current, and there wasn't a single fight I couldn't DPS in. I wonder if you know what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Why do people keep bringing this up as if tanks need to be topped off 100% of the time? ._.

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I think they are assuming battle design will change with tanks being more tanky. Lots more incomming damage.

not a nerf at all if you consider SE had us use VIT stuff anyway. if you used penta melded you already had the best of both worlds. and since they compared the changes to the current str tanks, we might be looking at almost the same numbers a penta melded tank is doing atm

it wont be a nerf, dmg still important for tank to hold aggro aginst burst classes. If we start do less then 100 dps compare to people who burn almost 2k dps then we will have seriously hard time to hold aggro even how pro you are.

So for me its a buff and prolly be more intressting to.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

I think its because they have to balance raid DPS with what the expected tank contributions would be and making it higher because tanks can do more damage would make it harder for groups with non optimal tank players in them.

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This is right.

The translation everyone is citing has been pointed out to be not perfect.

STR build tanks are being nerfed across the board.

VIT build tanks will not see a DPS decrease. WAR DPS will remain as high as it is now, but DRK and PLD will seer an increase that puts them very very close if not identical to WAR.

I think it's a devious way to shake up the meta. They'll be giving tanks more hp and lowering their signifigance in dps a bit, which in turn might imply that bosses will do bigger hits. Then healers would have to heal a bit more too, making them unable to dps as much. This added with more relaxed dps checks and more emphasis on mechanics sounds like a refreshing change.

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Originally Posted by Bloodb

in general on a training dummy, warrior can do 1,500 dps?
Bard is around 1,900 dps?

I don't use a parser I'm just trying to search around the web for numbers instead of assuming tanks do as much damage as bards and machinists.

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We can easily out dps bad dps.

It'll almost certainly mean Pure Vit tanks (Like me) will do more dammage than we did prior to 4.2 but, as it stated, the increese will not give us the same amount of power STR Tanks had in 3.15 and back.

That isn't a nerf it's a reballence. Vit Tanks,which is THE tank stat anyway (along with parry if it was better), will get a buff to make things as they should have always been. STR Tanks, an unintended player made anomaly that was never ment to work as so well, will receive an according kick in nads to officially end its inappropriate choke hold on the meta.

TL:dr, Vit Tanks are getting a buff, STR Tanks are getting destroyed. And then things should get back to normal.

Important to note that they said aggro calculations would be adjusted on tank stances. So a loss of dps shouldn't be a problem with holding hate. Not sure how that's gonna work in low level dungeons, though.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I also must say that I scholar'd my way through all of coil while it was current, and there wasn't a single fight I couldn't DPS in. I wonder if you know what you are talking about.

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There's a big difference between progression healing in Coil vs progression healing in Alex (except A4S). Remember T5, where you had to get those Adlos and Stoneskins on your CD-popping PLD or he'd die to the auto attack after Death Sentence?

And a difference between being able to DPS at points (Coil), and DPSing most of the time (A1S-A3S) as SCH. Really, the only fight we have right now that really pts pressure on healers is A4S, and there's still times when healers can go full-DPS mode.

I'd also like to check when you cleared A4S, but sadly I cannot. Why achievements are hidden by default is beyond me.


I also get the feeling everyone thinks that enemy damage is going to stay as it is now. If it is...I fully except even casual raiders to have A8S down within a month, since the DPS checks are going to be lighter and tanks and healers will be almost full-time DPSing.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I also get the feeling everyone thinks that enemy damage is going to stay as it is now. If it is...I fully except even casual raiders to have A8S down within a month, since the DPS checks are going to be lighter and tanks and healers will be almost full-time DPSing.

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It probably is. The Devs already said Alex Savage was a bit more, well, savage than intended. I don't imagine the upcoming crop is going to be nearly as initially difficult as what came before.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

It probably is. The Devs already said Alex Savage was a bit more, well, savage than intended. I don't imagine the upcoming crop is going to be nearly as initially difficult as what came before.

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The DPS checks were. Damage on the tanks...was so weak.

Tanks are gonna be just a punching bag now.
An by the way a tank will only output a bad/lazy DPS.

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

Because tanks doing as much damage as Bards and Machinists is dumb, they're trying to solidify the roles a bit more clearly, there's nothing wrong with that. As long as the fights are balanced around the lower tank damage, what does it matter anyway? That the new expectation is a few hundred lower on Fell Cleave?

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As a Bard, I don't really have an issue with that. ...I don't usually find that to be the case, anyways, but if a War wants to sacrifice its defensive CDs and stick entirely to Deliverance just for that bit more dps, I don't mind his dps being damn close.

I'd rather have them deal competitive dps, worth what they're losing in mitigation, than take that extra step back from versatility. ...Partly just because I fear what will happen to healers next, and then dps defensive CDs, and so forth.

I really don't get this "tank should not DPS" mentality. "Holding hate" is not a thing in FFXIV. You get it, it's yours. What makes every job interesting is how to max DPS while doing your job. What else is there, popping CDs on scripted busters...?

It also amazes me how all these bards and machinists got out-DPSed by tanks. An equally geared and skilled DPS would never have lost the DPS race against any tank. There is nothing wrong with tanks doing better DPS than lower geared or lower skilled DPS.

because tank players were exploiting the game and the developers had no intention to have them play like that.

How are tanks exploiting the game?