Ok, so I got on the forums because I was wondering how pvp materia is weighed (does +2 Sleep Resistance = -2 sec Sleep duration?) and came to find out what I dreaded. I must say that I don't live on the forums. I read a little bit if it piques my interest, ask a question that may/may not be answered, or just want to see any notices (savage clears, recruiting, etc). So I missed this announcement from a community rep:
TBH, I was originally gonna rant about how this is BS and mean-spirited to players who grinded and so on. After drinking some tea for my sore throat, I calmed down. This still does leave me with this question:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhexos
Why is this gear and materia here in the first place? At this point, can't they just not add anymore pvp gear? Wouldn't it make more sense just have it as a crafted glamour piece if that's the worth of it?
Sure, I get it, make people grind for that piece of gear so they keep playing the content. Make things "normalized" so even the newest of players can have a fair shot and are not ostracized. I admit, I did not like WD because I felt that if you didn't have the pvp skills and gear it was unbearably painful, thus I didn't do it (I stopped after about 10 or so matches).
I admit, when others complained about how players were able to buy old pvp gear and equip it with having the earlier required pvp rank(s), I said "why does it matter when this gear isn't relevant anymore?" Now I kinda feel the same way. Why have rank requirements if it's not actually relevant? I put in the work, I grinded the gear, and surprisingly, I could care less if someone had it handed to them; I already have what I wanted. Please SE don't make it so I grinded for gear that was ultimately glamour which I wouldn't have done, excluding the rank 50 monk weapons - them dragons are BAF!
TL;DR: Why have pvp gear and materia if there's no benefit to having it?
PVP Gear & Materia... Should it be removed?
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02-17-2016, 03:08 PMDBthaONEPVP Gear & Materia... Should it be removed?
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02-17-2016, 05:15 PMZzxy
I aggree with the materia in that they should just remove it at this point or scale up the original WD to 60 for us to find use for them. But even then, I fear that an upscaled WD would be no-man's land filled with Rank 50 people in their PVP gear if it were to still take materia and morale into account.
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Originally Posted by DBthaONE
I would, setting the MNK/NIN Rank 50 set as my long term goal was what kept me coming back to the queue and grinding out the ranks. It was the driving force and gear lust that pushed me to keep trying and keep coming back (even after my GC fought fiercely for second place while the leading GC held 3 nodes).
Heck, it probably made me more self aware of the strategies and pitfalls people would make playing Frontlines just from all the matches I've played.
Removing the gear/rank-restrictions just gives players less incentive to queue up to an already struggling mode. You'd get a lot of people outright forgetting about pvp once they have the pieces they want if that were the case.
tl;dr pvp gear can be great incentive and if were taken out, what'd you replace em with? (Minions? Titles? Mounts?) -
02-17-2016, 11:47 PMDBthaONEThat might be true, or it might not, but we'll never know if they don't try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zzxy
They have mounts and titles already. Can they add more? SURE. If that's the incentive for people, then by all means continue to add more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zzxy
I understand the incentive to keep people continuing pvp. I understand that you'd be mad if others had it handed to them; although i would not care, you have your own opinion. My point is that why are they included if they do not have a purpose? If they don't have an actual purpose then they should be treated as glamour, which they ultimately are right now. However, that's an awful grind just for glamour pieces.
My point is that the materia and gear SHOULD be purposeful if it's included. -
02-18-2016, 12:39 AMMutemuttI would say being an incentive to actually take part is a valid purpose, but anyway I wonder why you would ask if the pvp gear should be removed in the first place. What's there to be gained in removing something you've said is an incentive to keep people playing pvp? I feel like you asked the question and then gave reasons for it to stay right after.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBthaONE
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02-18-2016, 12:39 AMUltimatecaliburThe highest ranked gear is there as an incentive. Replacing them with crafted glamours would be counterproductive.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBthaONE
The PvP materia were put in because the devs thought that the status effect meta would take priority over boosting DpS secondaries. They were wrong and have been trying to figure out how to fix the mess.
Right now the Dev team are focused on making certain that The Feast is balanced which is the reason for the i150 sync and materia deactivation. In future seasons, higher tier Feast matches might sync to higher ilevels or even be unsynced. -
02-18-2016, 01:38 AMNalien
IMO, we should have two types of PvP;
Balanced matches, in which gear, stats, consumables, etc. should not be a factor. Gear might provide a very small edge, but it is still and edge I don't think should exist in a balanced and competitive environment. Accessibility is also an issue here, if people need to grind out sets to enter stuff like Feast, they're not going to be able to access it right away.
Unbalanced matches, in which anything goes. Gear, etc. can all matter, and balancing the "matches" would fall on the individual.
Right now we're completely lacking the later. Duels (provided they're open world) would be a great way to introduce some of it, though. A Warrior versus Black Mage is inherently unbalanced, when it comes to duels the individuals would consider this, though. If I know I can't beat a Warrior on my Black Mage, I wont accept that duel, simple as that, I have other Jobs I can opt for instead. Similar thing for gear differences; If I run into someone who has done Gordias (Savage) and has full i210, they might have an obvious advantage, but if I've done PvP enough, I might have a i180 PvP set which jumps to i210 for PvP. The gear would then have purpose.
At this point I'd be tempted to revamp Secure/Slaughter into a Diadem style zone which we can just jump right into with no wait, with balance going out the window. Slap some Grand Company NPCs around to ensure something is always going on and to deter spawn camping. Arguably that reduces it to mere PvE content, but it would still be a PvP zone. You'd jump in, get kills and help take objectives in order to score points (which now go towards a Diadem style objective for rewards, rather than a win condition) and if it's unpopular, you might never see another soul. Given we can all just jump in whenever though, I imagine there would always be some PvP going on. Balance becomes something of an issue when one Grand Company sends in an Alliance to own the map, but I think I'd find that fairly entertaining... There would be no more victory condition, they'd just be farming points for their rewards and sticking around to ruin your day, you can then organize your own Grand Company to fight back. That completely flips the current Grand Company dynamic in PvP, as well. Queue issues are gone, and instead you have something that lends itself to patriotism.
Duels and a Diadem style Secure/Slaughter would work fairly well as battlegrounds where PvP gear can matter, IMO. Keep it out of the competitive scene, though. All that does is make matches unbalanced and harder to access for new players. -
02-18-2016, 01:57 AMDBthaONEForgive me if my point wasn't clear. Taking part in pvp, just for the sake of doing it is a valid purpose. My point is why have gear inherent to pvp, that is not utilized in pvp?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutemutt
Highest ranking gear? The gets synced. That'd be like getting i210 Savage gear but it has the EXACT same stats (values included) as the i190 Normal gear. SE MIGHT add ________? Hmmmm..... SE's track record with "might" isn't too good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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02-18-2016, 02:05 AMIagainsti
Currently, the PVP gear has Morale on it; what Morale does is sync the gear to a higher Ilvl. Currently the Highest Tier pvp set will sync to 210 in content that takes morale into account. The Feast is being released without a morale check, the ranked matches being released in 3.21 may take it into account. Rank 40 something currently, since I haven't really grinded it since the drop of 3.0, but I'm definitely going to this week to make sure my Black mage has the left side gear.
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02-18-2016, 02:06 AMMutemuttIf people like to pvp just to pvp, they will take part whether gear is involved or not, but my point is this: if you acknowledge that having gear inherent to pvp helps keep it active, what is there to gain from removing it? You ask if it should be removed and then point out the good aspects of having the gear tied to pvp. What I'm not seeing is the good that comes from having the gear removed. If there's no gain, and this is just removing incentive just because, then I have to say no to removing the gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBthaONE
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02-18-2016, 04:29 AMEmper
PvP materia, no materia working in Frontlines, and the morale stat are a confusing mess. This makes getting into the PvP community all the more intimidating for newcomers.
The fact that people are discussing how morale works in this very thread, illustrates my point.
I don't think PvP gear and materia need to be removed so much as reworked to be more clear, especially regarding the differences in rules between all the PvP modes. -
02-18-2016, 06:15 AMFebrusIn short, because there is a benefit to having them. Materia is an exception, because SE shot themselves in the foot with that one, but the actual PvP gear is specifically tuned for PvP.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBthaONE
At cap, the PvP gear will put you at the highest possible skill caps to retain advantage in a PvP environment. The ilvl 180 PvP gear set (even at level sync) actually out-preformed the ilvl 190 PvE set on most jobs, because it prioritizes dmg stats over useless things such as accuracy and parry. At the moment, the PvP set is basically on par with the PvE sets, because the average item level has gone up to 200-210. Even sets with un-optimized stat options will put you at cap, so (as long as your PvE gear is above 190) it makes no difference if you are wearing the PvP or PvE sets. However, when the PvP gear is current, it is often the BiS for PvP (though not always).
The real question is: are the benefits of PvP specific secondary stats worth the grind to Rank 50? The short answer is, sadly: "no." If morale was applied, then it would be a different story. If we could use the PvP materia, it would be a different story, but we can't. SE's blunder with the Secure/Slaughter game modes, and the subsequent complaints from the mindless mass of casual PvP'ers about "unfair advantages," killed the true benefit to the climb to rank 50. That said, the gear is still made for PvP. So, it's not outright useless.
Please, for the love of all things holy, no. SE already gives FAR too much power to the crafting community. They own the market. It's the only real way to make money, and SE has a long history of locking content behind crafting requirements (two relic weapons and counting), in which players are forced to shell out HUGE sums of gil to satiate the greedy crafters. DO NOT, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ENCOURAGE SE TO GIVE MORE THINGS TO CRAFTERS. Some of us like to actually play the game for rewards. Even if PvP gear was purely cosmetic, I would rather play the actual game mode then spend hours crafting/gathering to make enough money to simply buy the gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBthaONE
I'm probably more biased on this topic than most people (and likely coming off a little strong here), but if we're talking about what's "worth it" and what is not "worth it," then there is no contest. Playing a game mode that I enjoy for rewards is worth it. Grinding incredibly boring content endlessly is not. PvP rewards should be for PvP, not crafting. -
02-18-2016, 11:06 AMUrthdigger
I'm a little torn on this. On the one hand, I know there should be a use for the PVP stats. At the same time though, I remember getting into Wolves Den late and having my armor and weapons functionally useless compared to the people that already had morale gear. It's a definite possibility that making morale gear useful would necessitate losing literally every single match on your way to rank 50 for new players, which while possible is hardly fun. Separating the two playstyles into a version that uses morale and one that does not is not really an option however, given the already low PVP playerbase... not to mention that nobody would queue up for the morale version save for people that already have the highest level morale gear, and when EVERYONE has the same morale stat it may as well not be doing anything.
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02-18-2016, 11:53 AMFebrusI know where you're coming from. Honestly, my first and overwhelmingly strong instinct is that Morale should effect gear. The PvP'ers who worked their butts off to get to rank 50 earned it. Further, any player who is willing to customize that gear with appropriate materia advantages should be rewarded for their dedication, not told that their dedication is worthless. However, matches can get really unfair when a full set of rank 50 players meet up with PuGS, especially in the early life of a patch. PvP and PvE gear don't tend to balance out until the END of a patch life cycle (as in right now, when the average PvE gear level had reached 210 and is easily accessible to all players), so I can understand why some players found it so unfair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urthdigger
That said, I wonder if the upcoming Ranked game modes could be the solution. Soon we'll have our GC PvP Rank as well as a Seasonal Ranking. Seasonal Rankings will be handed out via victories in Ranked Game Modes only, but (I'm assuming, since SE has not said anything about it) Players should still get PvP experience from all game modes. If that's the case, then the casual version of Feast (un-ranked 8v8) could work as planned (lvl sync'd with no morale and no materia), whereas Ranked modes could work with morale and materia. It would give dedicated players who worked for that gear a place to actually use it, and the casual players would still have a place where they didn't have to worry about getting stomped by morale players.
Of course, the foreseeable problem is causal players complaining that the ranked modes are too exclusive to hardcore PvP'ers (which is a fair complaint), but the thing is that if a player is interested enough to go for seasonal rankings they will, eventually, hit rank 50 and want to up their game. Further, it's not like players without morale gear could not queue up. They'd just have to go in knowing that they're queuing at a slight disadvantage, one that can be worked around if they are also in a pre-made. I think it could work if the players just gave it a chance instead of complaining before they've even attempted to rank up. -
02-20-2016, 09:58 AMStormrider
I don't get why put slots on anything any more. PvP materia is dead take them away. Morale is mostly dead (ilvl150 I am looking at you) remove it.
They either need a road map that says X will be next season and next tier of frontlines. Or just make PvP gear the glamour it is and remove the other stuff off it. Or since it syncs down to 150 put the most optimal stat set per class so maybe all SCH gear had crit and det. Would still give a bonus for completing a set but still make it fair. Also the Grand Company set bonus is in the game so we know it works a bonus for having more of a certain set. All seems reasonable to me and not game breaking. Since the cap is 150 anyways most people can mix and match the half a dozen sets to get stats they want anyways.