Please fix - really poor game design

I just came back to the game after a 6 month break to find the Free Company I was a part of no longer exists. I quickly joined another and re-purchased private quarters, only to find all my stuff is gone.

This is an extremely poor game design. The amount of time/energy/material and money I spent on items completely went to waste. A player cannot help the fact that Free Companies disband, so why would you ever have the game delete all of those items? It makes no sense. It's bad enough the game charges you over and over for private quarters, another silly design, but deleting the items is a whole new low.

I appreciate this won't help, but wanted to clarify that they don't actually get instantly deleted.

When your FC room is destroyed (for whatever reason) all items that can be removed go to the Calamity Salvager. Any items that can't actually be removed without destroying do get instantly destroyed though.

However, you only have 35 days to pick up your items from a Calamity Salvager vendor before they are removed forever.

Well the just doesn't delete the items it gives a grace period where you can reclaim them which then deletes them after that period of time has passed. Even if you own your own house the game will reclaim the house if you gone for more then 45 days and items then sent to the Calamity NPC for the same grace period before being deleted.

Yeah, I understand how it works. It's still a really poor game design that needs changed. The game is essentially taking your items and deleting them if you haven't played in 45 days, which is absolutely ridiculous. Imagine if the game deleted your gear, items in your bank and up for sale on your retainers in the same way. I can't understand the logic behind it. The same goes for having to pay for additional private quarters if your FC drops you or disbands. The game is asking you to take a risk at spending a large amount of gil and not guaranteeing once that money is spent that you will continue to keep what you paid for.

Why wouldn't they just make private quarters be owned by your character, but only be able to have access to through a FC instance you are apart of? This is my stuff, I own it, and if I move to a different FC it should still be my stuff, where I had it placed, not be deleted because I couldn't keep my sub active for 45 days or more.

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Originally Posted by skeletonfingers

I can't understand the logic behind it.

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It's a way to convince people to stay subscribed and they also probably rationalise it that they store less data for non-active players then.

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Originally Posted by skeletonfingers

The same goes for having to pay for additional private quarters if your FC drops you or disbands. The game is asking you to take a risk at spending a large amount of gil and not guaranteeing once that money is spent that you will continue to keep what you paid for.

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This is true. They probably justify it as a gil sink though to remove money from the game (as there are so many ways to get money that comes from nowhere and very few that actually take money out of the game).

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Originally Posted by skeletonfingers

Why wouldn't they just make private quarters be owned by your character, but only be able to have access to through a FC instance you are apart of?

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Because it's attached to the house and the house is owned by the free company. I agree it'd be nice if you could move it with you to a new house, but that's unrealistic (unless they invent some lore that explains how your room isn't connected to a solid house/moves around...)

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Originally Posted by worldofneil

Because it's attached to the house and the house is owned by the free company. I agree it'd be nice if you could move it with you to a new house, but that's unrealistic (unless they invent some lore that explains how your room isn't connected to a solid house/moves around...)

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You are defending a poor game design with a need for Lore? Where is the lore around why the characters in this world never sleep? The lore behind the same events/stories happening over and over in different time/space for all the characters in it, endlessly, with an exception to once a week the world ceasing to exist while its makers shut servers down for maintenance? Or, the lore behind why a people randomly disappear into thin air and are gone for hours/days/months then suddenly reappear? (without their housing still intact) Its a game. Lore exists for good setting and story telling, not defining the very existence of every possible element within a game.

Woah there! I was only talking about why the FC room was attached to the FC house, which seems pretty logical to me and that not having it attached would need a pretty good explanation...

If you want a room not attached to the free company you can get this with the upcoming apartment housing which sounds like it's due in 3.4 (October/November?) and those houses will (apparently) have 500 rooms per house and won't be attached to a company as no one will own the overall house. Or just buy your own house, more are coming to existing wards in 3.3 apparently (June/July?)

That being said, they'll likely have the same 45 day inactivity "demolish" rule as the main houses and the same 35 days after that to get your stuff...

Silly game design or not, your base problem is that you had a private room (which is a one time charge) at your Free Company's Estate and (per your own post) have been gone for 6 months.

If your Free Company had disbanded, I would first ask why you weren't told they were doing this during your 6 month break from the game. It would have given you an a chance to resub long enough to get your room items back.

Also, considering you were out of the game for 6 months, there are several things you should consider before simply blaming a new game mechanic added while you were away:

1. If your FC disbanded, it is possible that the last member sold the rights to the house prior to the demolish mechanic being added. That would mean you would have lost everything with no option to get it back.

2. If you FC disbanded and simply removed itself and the house (which I think you can do) then you would have lost everything, but the up side is no single person would have profited from it.

3. If, by fate or whatever, that it is the actual fault of the new demolish game mechanic for housing, then I have trouble feeling sorry for you for 2 reasons:

A - If you posting I am then guessing that you do keep up with game information,
could have gotten on to check the status of your FC and made changes to your
membership then, or

B - You don't keep up with game news at all which probably also means you don't
check video blogs of those who do.

So the fact that you lost everything boils down to the simple fact that you took a 6 month break due to life or your gaming needs but didn't take any steps to prevent what has happened from happening in the first place.

Sucks to be you is all I can think to say.

I am one who plays regularly (weekends) and (before the demolish mechanic was added) hardly ever went to our FC house (maybe once every 4 months). The mechanic has been added and the only thing that has changed is I end my game there every night when I play.

Also, I am the only active member in my FC with about 4 members who still play during the month. I stay with the FC cause I helped start it and I like the perks of having it available to me.

I am sorry that no one in your previous FC was willing to show that commitment to the group to save you (and possibly others in your previous FC) from your (and eventually their) new found housing fate(s).

Aoxaviar, thanks for contributing.

What I got from your post is that you support the idea that if a player has to take a break from the game and unsub, they are responsible for keeping in contact with their FC and current game updates that might include: deleting ones items for not being subbed or available to claim items being trashed in the event a FC disbands.

Just out of curiosity, how many MMO's have you played that deleted any housing items of yours while you were away for an extended period of time? I can name 6 MMOs with housing I play casually that do not delete my stuff in this way. Many of them are F2P.

It's silly and destructive. I don't see how anyone can actually defend it as if it makes perfect sense and is the right way to do things.

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Originally Posted by skeletonfingers

Just out of curiosity, how many MMO's have you played that deleted any housing items of yours while you were away for an extended period of time? I can name 6 MMOs with housing I play casually that do not delete my stuff in this way. Many of them are F2P.

It's silly and destructive. I don't see how anyone can actually defend it as if it makes perfect sense and is the right way to do things.

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You're wasting your time. This debate is very old around here, and anyone who is actually okay with how the housing is will not change their mind. I'd suggest you just write off FFXIV and stick to one of your other MMOs, because this is what the XIV community accepts and expects now. It's blasphemy to imply that a free game can do housing better, despite the fact that there are clear examples that they can, and we should all be happy that this subscription-based MMO with a cash shop gives us any housing at all.

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Originally Posted by Neira

You're wasting your time. This debate is very old around here, and anyone who is actually okay with how the housing is will not change their mind. I'd suggest you just write off FFXIV and stick to one of your other MMOs, because this is what the XIV community accepts and expects now. It's blasphemy to imply that a free game can do housing better, despite the fact that there are clear examples that they can, and we should all be happy that this subscription-based MMO with a cash shop gives us any housing at all.

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No.

It's just some of us recognize that new wards are coming in 3.3 and private instanced housing in 3.4. Adding FC private quarters was a stop-gap measure and is not a perfect solution, but there's nothing that you could change to FC rooms that wouldn't be fixed with the changes coming in 3.3 and 3.4. So there's no point petitioning for a game design change: they're coming but they don't happen overnight. Just be patient about it.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

No.

It's just some of us recognize that new wards are coming in 3.3 and private instanced housing in 3.4. Adding FC private quarters was a stop-gap measure and is not a perfect solution, but there's nothing that you could change to FC rooms that wouldn't be fixed with the changes coming in 3.3 and 3.4. So there's no point petitioning for a game design change: they're coming but they don't happen overnight. Just be patient about it.

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Which doesn't address the issue of the game deleting your stuff. Which is what this thread is about.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Which doesn't address the issue of the game deleting your stuff. Which is what this thread is about.

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Respectfully disagree.

More wards = purchase your own home which would not be tied to a FC.

Instanced private housing = same as above, this time such that plots are available for everyone on a server, not just on a first come first serve basis. They probably also have the advantage of being the same price as an FC room, assuming that they are the same size and function the same way.

If you're concerned still about the 45 day reclaim feature, I would say that's an entirely separate issue. Whether or not you are subbed or login ot visit your housing is 100% in your control and your choice. Having a room disappear because the FC disbanded, there's nothing you can do about that you're at the mercy of your FC leadership. Separate issue.

Since this is about the private FC room.

I got my room more than six months ago and way back when I got it the system was already an place, that if you for any reason loose the room (mainly, if you for any reason loose FC membership) the items will have a grace period to be picked up or they are gone forever. That was informed to me along the purchase of the room so it must have been either on the help text dialogs I need to click through, or in the active help window the private room purchase spawned. It also might have been one of the housing related explanation dialogs one can choose to read. It's reasonable to assume you were informed about this back on the purchase time.

Now other MMOs, I have played quite a few and in every of them, if I have taken a break of more than a month it has been safe to assume I would have been kicked out of the guilds I were in, except I they were guilds with people I also communicate outside of the game. What I'm saying is, taking half a year hiatus with no contact to the guild is enough reason to expect you have no guild when you return.

Neither of this has anything to do with the new house timing concept, which by the way sends you mail in time to come back to the game to secure your house if the time was running out.

It's all good in theory that we should not be required to come back halfway through a break just to get our stuff back, but the reality is that keeping the data around for all characters like this would bog the servers down more than we think. The Calamity Salvager is merely the cache for the housing system in this case - you have to eventually empty that cache for the game to keep running smoothly, just like a regular computer. The resources SE allocates to FFXIV are finite here & need to be closely maintained.

Housing has basically turned into a whirlpool: it looks great & spectacular, but you have to put forth the effort to stay out of the tunnel once you're in motion (logging in regularly) or else you're gonna get sucked to the bottom and possibly die/get maimed (lose all your stuff due to inactivity).

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

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Originally Posted by Neira

You're wasting your time. This debate is very old around here, and anyone who is actually okay with how the housing is will not change their mind. I'd suggest you just write off FFXIV and stick to one of your other MMOs, because this is what the XIV community accepts and expects now. It's blasphemy to imply that a free game can do housing better, despite the fact that there are clear examples that they can, and we should all be happy that this subscription-based MMO with a cash shop gives us any housing at all.

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No.

It's just some of us recognize that new wards are coming in 3.3 and private instanced housing in 3.4. Adding FC private quarters was a stop-gap measure and is not a perfect solution, but there's nothing that you could change to FC rooms that wouldn't be fixed with the changes coming in 3.3 and 3.4. So there's no point petitioning for a game design change: they're coming but they don't happen overnight. Just be patient about it.

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Sorry to tell what I read is Neira knows the history but you don't...^^;

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Originally Posted by Apocrypher

the reality is that keeping the data around for all characters like this would bog the servers down more than we think.

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Mind explaining to me how Trion Games lets me have UNLIMITED dimensions (housing rooms) in Rift? Sure, I can only have 1 active dimension, but I can keep my housing items in the inactive ones and since it is a FREE game those items and dimensions are never deleted when I do not log in for any amount of time. I am confused how they dont hit issues with data bogging down their game and FFXIV does.

Either Trion Games has access to better tech than SE, or they just choose to bless their players (even the non spending ones) with a better housing experience. i.e., one that doesn't delete your items due to inactivity.

SE has always operated the same way even back in the days of XI. There is a saying "can't teach an old dog new tricks"

I'm surprised SE hasn't done the whole "email warning" thing with room demos like they did with demolition. You'd think with their track record of trying to force people to stay with housing, they would want to hold all the items in your room as hostage as well... >w>

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

I'm surprised SE hasn't done the whole "email warning" thing with room demos like they did with demolition. You'd think with their track record of trying to force people to stay with housing, they would want to hold all the items in your room as hostage as well... >w>

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Well that up to the FC if person get kicked out otherwise the room remains intact as long as the FC is around and decides not to kick said player. There are FCs out there that kick players out after 30 days of not logging in, which then your items go to the same 35 day system that housing item reclaim has.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Well that up to the FC if person get kicked out otherwise the room remains intact as long as the FC is around and decides not to kick said player. There are FCs out there that kick players out after 30 days of not logging in, which then your items go to the same 35 day system that housing item reclaim has.

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It's not so much for when you get kicked out of the FC but more when you're room is destroyed, which is a byproduct of you, in some fashion, leaving an FC.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

It's not so much for when you get kicked out of the FC but more when you're room is destroyed, which is a byproduct of you, in some fashion, leaving an FC.

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But it's nothing to do with SE why you left the FC.

They send out the housing emails because it's their direct actions which will result in your house being lost. With losing a FC room it's nothing to do with them if/when that happens, they didn't instigate it.

Sure it'd be nice if they emailed at the same time someone got removed from a FC to warn them they only have 35 days to reclaim items etc, but they probably don't want to get involved in what is really an internal matter. Also if they're going to start sending out emails it's one more thing they have to keep doing and doing correctly otherwise people would complain if one didn't work and right now they have no responsibility at all.

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Originally Posted by skeletonfingers

I just came back to the game after a 6 month break to find the Free Company I was a part of no longer exists. I quickly joined another and re-purchased private quarters, only to find all my stuff is gone.

This is an extremely poor game design. The amount of time/energy/material and money I spent on items completely went to waste. A player cannot help the fact that Free Companies disband, so why would you ever have the game delete all of those items? It makes no sense. It's bad enough the game charges you over and over for private quarters, another silly design, but deleting the items is a whole new low.

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How bout this as an idea: When you think/know you're going to be offline for a certain amount of weeks/months, move everything that you care about (and that you can move) onto a retainer.

The FC house/room will be gone but your objects you saved will still be on your retainer waiting for you.

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Originally Posted by dejiko_san

How bout this as an idea: When you think/know you're going to be offline for a certain amount of weeks/months, move everything that you care about (and that you can move) onto a retainer.

The FC house/room will be gone but your objects you saved will still be on your retainer waiting for you.

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http://mygaming.co.za/news/wp-conten..._101449394.jpg

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Originally Posted by Apocrypher

It's all good in theory that we should not be required to come back halfway through a break just to get our stuff back, but the reality is that keeping the data around for all characters like this would bog the servers down more than we think. The Calamity Salvager is merely the cache for the housing system in this case - you have to eventually empty that cache for the game to keep running smoothly, just like a regular computer. The resources SE allocates to FFXIV are finite here & need to be closely maintained.

Housing has basically turned into a whirlpool: it looks great & spectacular, but you have to put forth the effort to stay out of the tunnel once you're in motion (logging in regularly) or else you're gonna get sucked to the bottom and possibly die/get maimed (lose all your stuff due to inactivity).

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As a programmer, I can say that if they're spending more than a 20 gigs of total storage on the calamity salvager, they're doing it wrong. The Calamity Salvager only needs to store the character ID and the ID of every item on it. Even if you have 100 million characters that have the maximum number of FC room items (50), that's only *maybe* 21-22 gigabytes of data on their servers, assuming they use a long integer for their ID's, which is way more storage than they need. I can store that on a $12 thumb drive.

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Originally Posted by Neira

http://mygaming.co.za/news/wp-conten..._101449394.jpg

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I meant for the next time he goes away not to fall into the same situation :)

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Originally Posted by skeletonfingers

. The same goes for having to pay for additional private quarters if your FC drops you or disbands. The game is asking you to take a risk at spending a large amount of gil and not guaranteeing once that money is spent that you will continue to keep what you paid for.

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I'm sorry, 300k gil is not a large sum of cash, and SE cannot be blamed that the FC you did decide to bank on lasting folded and you lost your gil investment, #realworld. The system in place makes a lot of sense tbh and doesn't require a fix.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

I'm sorry, 300k gil is not a large sum of cash, and SE cannot be blamed that the FC you did decide to bank on lasting folded and you lost your gil investment, #realworld. The system in place makes a lot of sense tbh and doesn't require a fix.

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Towards end-game, no 300 gil is not large. At the time I purchased my housing I do remember it being pretty significant. The deleting of items is what gets me.

All game design should run through 3 checks. (In order of importance)

1. Does it benefit the Player?
2. Does it benefit the Game?
3. Does it benefit the Developer?

Curious to know how you see this game design is benefiting ALL three.

You're operating under the assumption that those are the checks that companies use in that order. The reality is that you can develop a game without players - they are the disposable. Will you make money without players? No, of course not... but ultimately, the players are optional. Development is a business, and the business will do what they can to work within their limits for highest profit.

Which means disposing of the data that is unused, so that the data that is being used has a place. While I'm not saying you can't be upset about losing your things, you are paying for the privilege of playing in a creative sandbox - when you stop playing there, or paying to play there, they are no longer obligated to hold your spot and will give it to someone who is paying.

This game has 15 second server backups. That's insane. Even they know it's insane. Your 50 items and their data, no matter how valuable they were to you, were not as valuable as the space they took up.

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Originally Posted by Nulstat

You're operating under the assumption that those are the checks that companies use in that order. The reality is that you can develop a game without players - they are the disposable.

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Do you work at Blizzard/Activision, Capcom, or Electronic Arts? I can't even dispute the point when it's obvious that you're right, and that it's a philosophy SE takes to heart as well.

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Originally Posted by Nulstat

Your 50 items and their data, no matter how valuable they were to you, were not as valuable as the space they took up.

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Couldn't disagree more. This is why companies fail every day because "small things don't matter". When my items were deleted, it made me want to get on here and complain. It decreased my excitement about the game. It made me want to never put time/effort into housing in this game again. Now, when I think of FFXIV I think about how its great, but the housing system sucks. When asked by friends I play other games with, I will mention this. Don't play this game if you want a good housing system. It's one less thing the game has to offer. So when I run out of other stuff to do, chances are instead of continuing to pay monthly and enjoy housing, I'll unsub. That time in addition to the time I detracted others from subbing for this game is worth FAR more than the pennies it cost to store that information on a server.

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Originally Posted by skeletonfingers

That time in addition to the time I detracted others from subbing for this game is worth FAR more than the pennies it cost to store that information on a server.

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While you may be right, and I'd personally like to agree you are and agree that you know how a business should be run, the fact is that large development companies and big name titles don't operate on that principle anymore, and they aren't failing either. Final Fantasy doesn't need your word of mouth to bring in new customers, and Square Enix doesn't need your money to keep making a profit. That's why the industry has shifted so much to providing shallow games with large emphasis on hype and beauty, the bait so to speak, with minimalistic development or innovation.

These companies don't want to provide unique games anymore, or try new things, there is too much risk for only a potential of reward(FFXIV 1.0). One fifth of the people who bought this game could bash it on forums, in game stores, or in blogs/vlogs, and it wouldn't change a thing. The name is too popular to stop from drawing people in, and even in cases where the game might be complete and utter trash(not saying this one is, even I don't think it is), if it's a popular enough franchise or series, it will still have hardcore defenders who stick loyally to it.

That also ties into part of the reason why basically every MMO has a cash shop too; there is more money in providing extra content to the short-lived player base than there is in working hard to keep people interested for years of subscriptions. The fact that this game can get away with both is just an example of how it's simply too big of a title to fail. All they need is a token housing system to advertise, just for the draw and to say it's there. Whether it's amazing or broken is irrelevant.

Sorry, I guess I started posting here unaware that FFXIV contains so many players too content with mediocrity that they would rather defend it rather than address it. Shame on me for expecting a game I pay for to create a more positive housing experience. One that could compete with it's F2P competitors. You all did well in helping me see there is little point in this community.

Enjoy the pile of trash housing I guess.

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Originally Posted by skeletonfingers

Enjoy the pile of trash housing I guess.

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I'll be honest. Anyone who claims the housing system in this game is a good way of doing it is delusional.

They really need to improve it and fast.

Also sadly the current housing system has a "got mine, so don't care" vibe. As long as they get a house they are fine and if they don't get a house a fair few are ok with whatever SE do to ensure their chances rise. Even if that is a bad thing for everyone else.

I can sympathize with you on the very poorly thought out housing system, though I do understand what SE intended. I'd like to think that they just overlooked some of the consequences of the systems they set up, however, there are so many 'bad' ideas mixed together that it's hard to believe that they didn't see at least some of the repercussions long before implementation.

The private quarters being deleted while you were away, I think, is something that they overlooked. It's a feature that was added after the static housing system and as such tied directly to it. If they'd thought it out more fully they'd have made it more like a license that you purchase (once) and also required that you belong to a FC with a house in order to access your private quarters (though they should still exist even if you're between FCs). It's just a small instanced zone that should be tied to your character and not the FC, let alone the specific house the FC owns.

I have no idea how much work it might be to untangle the system to allow for this, but it certainly would be possible to do. I don't recall exactly, but I think that they did mention adding a different type of housing that might essentially be private quarters+ (I think there was some gardening available) that is not tied to a FC, but to an individual and would be mostly instanced. I think they said they'd be like apartment buildings -- one large building with some basic common amenities but mostly tons of instanced private rooms. It's been a while since I read anything on it so perhaps I'm full of it or seriously misremembering things, but hopefully they're working on at least adding reasonable housing options even if they don't plan on outright removing the expensive (to the characters and servers) and poorly implemented housing that they have now.

As a current home owner, I really wish they would just say, 'Sorry for the ongoing trouble. We know we messed up really badly with the housing system and we're unfortunately going to scrap everything and redesign it from the ground up. It will all be instanced so that everyone can have a house if they want one and we'll do our best to refund all gil that people have spent on the current system and to give people a chance to reclaim their furnishings.'

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Originally Posted by Nutz

As a current home owner, I really wish they would just say, 'Sorry for the ongoing trouble. We know we messed up really badly with the housing system and we're unfortunately going to scrap everything and redesign it from the ground up. It will all be instanced so that everyone can have a house if they want one and we'll do our best to refund all gil that people have spent on the current system and to give people a chance to reclaim their furnishings.'

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And also as a current home owner I hope they DON'T do that. Sure they can refund gil, but they can't refund time. Limited as the current system is, for those of us with housing removing it now is just a giant kick in the teeth. We've spent time making/acquiring/decorating the houses, including the special exteriors from the FC crafting. Even if we got most of the items back, without their respective house their reason for being there might be pointless.

Also instances might give everyone a house, but they then lose the neighbourhood feel there is now and I can't think I'm alone in thinking how nice it is to meet up with regular friends outside at the marketboards in front of our group of houses? Also if houses are instanced... isn't that then a series of rooms rather than a house? If you can't see the actual exterior of the house, is it still even a house? (and if you can see the exterior what on earth is that in, it's own little instance with nothing else around it? Kind of lonely....?)

I know people want more houses and I feel bad for those that want/haven't yet been able to get, but taking away the existing houses isn't the answer (other than demolition for inactivity etc which I have no problem with).

More wards are being added in 3.3 and hopefully they do actually mean a LOT more.