Ahoy there!
So there are rumours that FFXIV 2.0 will introduce a "Dungeon finder" which allows people to get in Raids with other people from other servers.
Id like to get a discussion regarding this and I hope that there might be a sneaky dev seeing this thread!
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At first I wanted to get a thread going on like "Dungeonfinder?! You are tearing me apart Yoshi, you tearing me apart!!!"
But as I calmed a bit down about the rumour/interview, I try to write my opinion that way that noone gets upset by it.
As for myself, I abolutely hope that this won't be implemented in FF XIV. This feature kills social contacts which is the main point of an MMORPG.
(If the dungeonfinder is gonna be server-intern only, so I'm able to play with people from my server only, I'd love it!
But a dungeonfinder, which gathers people from all servers to participate for only one battle, it'll probably harm the community and break it apart.)
It sounds like a 1:1 copy of some other well-known MMORPGs feature which also killed the community, players in these MMOs don't get to know each other except if they are in the same guild.
"Finding other people for adventures and become friends with them." Thats what an MMO should stand for.
There are many great changes on the way, but don't try to become a clone.
There are reasons why we are not playing these, so don't become it.
"Dungeonfinder" - heaven or hell?!
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10-20-2011, 12:55 AMCross"Dungeonfinder" - heaven or hell?!
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10-20-2011, 12:59 AMDjeserit
What an original topic.
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10-20-2011, 12:59 AMNikita
The new server system for 2.0 was designed specifically for cross server grouping, we are getting cross server grouping. I love the feature personally. If you don't like it, group with your friends or LS members. This feature is amazing for players who don't have time to look for groups.
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10-20-2011, 01:02 AMXatsh
It is a double edge sword honestly and all depends on how it is done. Currently all the ones I see in existing mmos have the following effects.
Positives:
1) Massive reduction in time lost waiting for party (grants people with limited time the ability to do everything easier)
Negatives:
1) Dmg to the in-game community
2) Dmg to Guilds/LS in-game
3) Regression of the genre back to lobby type game play
4) Negates the World in alot of ways
This all depends on how SE does it. If they copy WoW where you can seek in a city/anywhere and insta-warp to a dungeon with 7 other people, well I would say that is really bad. If they make it where you can party up and meet somewhere it does not really break the immersion of the world and is just like seeking party.
There will be many sides to this, for some the ease of partying with this system negates all the major negatives.. for others 1 positive (shorter gather times) does not negate half destroying the community. Only time will tell. -
10-20-2011, 01:07 AMZenaku
The cons for this is really high dungeon-finder should not be added it make people just /sit in city waiting on the list to enter anything linkshell would be use less players wont know each other within there own world. But also i can understand how some casual players would like to log in and have something ready within 1-5min or less of waiting but that alone is not really enough to win the con.
But i don't mind if they add it just don't allow it to be for everything in the game. -
10-20-2011, 01:16 AMDoctorMogWhat an original response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Djeserit
OP: Being able to find others, in any sense, for a dungeon (rather than shouting in town) Will help I am sure. -
10-20-2011, 02:00 AMWolfie
For, because it doesn't cause damage to the community like people like to think it does.
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10-20-2011, 02:07 AMDjeserit/123456789Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
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10-20-2011, 02:10 AMnasomi
It absolutely does. The people on your server are who you play with. To this day I can remember dozens of people on my server that I'd randomly encounter in parties, and you knew who you were grouping with, and you avoided problematic people. If you needed someone for a quest you could search the lfg's and if you saw someone you knew, you'd ask them for help. And it was quite frequent you found someone you knew.
Stop westernizing ffxiv please. -
10-20-2011, 02:20 AMEunys
If they are planning on cross sever play then there is no choice in a dungeon finder type system, as you won't be able to help out party members to reach said dungeons if they are in areas with aggressive mobs around.
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10-20-2011, 02:22 AMColdbrand
Uh, he's not making it up, anti-social behavior flares up to a whole different level, several notches ahead of whatever it is now, when the game automatically groups you, especially with people from foreign worlds.
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10-20-2011, 02:28 AMLum
If the main focus of end game content is Dungeons then i would rather not have it. Honestly the dungeon finder will be good IF we have content outside of being instanced. Give me the same amount of open world content as there is instance content that has at least the same worth and i will be happy.
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10-20-2011, 02:30 AMRemVye
Keep in mind that not all the content is instanced.
If this was released today, you could queue for Toto-rak, Darkhold, and Ifrit. That's it.
In the future, 2 more instanced raids, 2 more primal fights.
This isn't all the game has to offer, exp parties, leve's, *hopefully lengthy-difficult-quests in the future, hamlet defense, strongholds, NM's, Grand Company things all aren't instanced.
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Yes, as more time passes additional things will be instanced and more people will queue. It won't be the whole game like WoW, where you quest alone, auto-queue for dungeons / pvp and sit in town after that.
Personally I think it's wise for them to keep the ratio 1/2 and 1/2 for instanced and non-instanced content. That should prevent the World from going completely unused, as well as making dungeons more difficult so you can't farm "easy" exp out of them.
I look forward to the cross-world play :D -
10-20-2011, 02:30 AMWolfieThis happens in WOW too to some degree. What kills WOW's community is how fluid characters are, not the cross-realm play. You never run into the same people even if you stick to your own server, because people are always creating and deleting characters, because it's so easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by nasomi
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10-20-2011, 02:37 AMGramulLet's Rock!Quote:
heaven or hell?!
Yeah, I'm not into this whole dungeon finder thing either. On one hand, you can quickly and easily form parties to take on a challenge withput having to wait and form a group with people on your server. But on the other hand, forming a group with the people on your server really helps your comunity to get to know each other more. It becomes less about systematicly moving from task to task, and more about making friends and growing as an in game society. Playing with people you'll never see again kinda takes away from the comunity growth MMO's have their greatest strength in.
At least from my own perspective. But who knows, maybe they'll implement it in a way I don't expect. I was wrong about Chocobos, I could be wrong about this. -
10-20-2011, 02:38 AMCricaI couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikita
Join or form a Linkshell or three with players like yourself and build up your friend list with players you enjoyed meeting while leve questing if you want solid community.
Leave the casual gamers alone who do not wish to be a part of your solid community and prefer to play with random folks like themselves via a grouping tool instead.
Forcing them to join your solid community of Linkshells or be on your friend list in order to run content is only going to piss you and them off. -
10-20-2011, 02:39 AMBearforcewhats so bad about copying good idea,s from the west? you sir dont make sense at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by nasomi
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10-20-2011, 02:46 AMXatshNot going to copy paste the whole box since you commented on my quote deal... keeping the long copy paste out. Click the blue arrow on the comment to see the original post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Djeserit
You can downplay all the negatives all you want but they exist and they are a major problem.
1) In XI if you went into a party and purposly screwed up, ninja looted, griefed other players you where shunned by the community... if you did it enough you where forced to do 2 things. Quit the game (since everyone would refuse to play with you) or pay for a server transfere (when they finally added 1). In WoW with dungeon finder the people you play with are basically tools for your progression, you will most likly not see them again, they are not on your server so no dmg to your rep in-game. You could mpk them all, steal loot, ruin a run and absolutely nothing came from it. 5 peoples time was wasted and 1 person got away with a huge reward or a laugh. This is how the community is damaged, it removes the need to treat others with respect and removed the need to be honest. And if someone wants to deny it happens they have not played WoW recently... when I played after cata about 1/5 partys had this happen with finder.
2) player A >>> "hey can you help with this dungeon", Linkshell >>> "just que up for it" , That there is destroying the purpose of a guild... and yea that happens a whole lot. The linkshell does not help anymore, you are expected to do it with the finder. A linkshell/Guild is an extended family which is suppose to come together to help everyone advance, The less reliable on guilds to do raids there is the more worthless the guild in general becomes. Even top guilds the above mentioned happens (although it will be to a lesser extent)and when it does it dmgs that bond which makes a guild something you want to be in. The we are here for the greater good of the group, not just as a means of advancement.
3) MMOs where born to remove the lobby system of the past, that was what made EQ and early mmos special and why they where designed in that way. It was no longer a dungeon crawler but a whole world. Arguing that this is not a regression in the online game genre is simple ignorance. You can prefer the old ways but it is by definition a regression of why mmos came about.
4) The you can choose not to use it argument is void. People will not purposly take the harder path, it is not human nature. So if dungeon finder exist people will use it. Especially if it becomes the norm and people cannot make partys effectively in other ways. Basically it forces everyone to use it. Go into WoW and shout for a party in Ogrimar or Stormwind or something to try to get a dungeon together... I guarantee you will get about 20 responses with something like "Use the Dungeon finder noob." It is the same thing as the party search atm in XIV, IT works perfectly, but the community refuses to use it. Therefor it forces everyone to make partys in another way. Same will happen with finder. -
10-20-2011, 02:47 AMNikitaLol, I think the free company system is incentive enough in itself for people to do things on their own server... I really don't see why people are freaking out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crica
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10-20-2011, 02:59 AMDaenerys_SedaiYeah, same thing went through my head when I read the topic. FIGHT!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramul
Ahh Guilty Gear.. so many memories. -
10-20-2011, 03:11 AMDjeseritResponses:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
1) That is exactly why dungeon finders also come with a vote kick tool. If the majority of the group votes to kick someone out, then that person gets kicked. The group is automatically put back in the queue with x-1/x players and gets the next person to fill the spot needed. In other words, if you think someone is trolling your group in any way, shape, or form, kick him and get a replacement. Not hard.
2) Sounds like you need better linkshells/guilds. When I played WoW about 4 months after Cata release, a majority of the guild I was in would refuse to PUG, and thus would do guild only runs. With free companies, they could easily implement a system where you get extra Company EXP (or whatever they are going to call it, they have confirmed Free COmpanies will have levels.) for having a group filled with mostly people in the same Company. That encourages people to do guild/company/ls runs.
3) So you argue against the lobby system, but you would prefer to stand around in Uldah shouting for a group. Protip: Uldah is a lobby in that scenario. Granted, yes, dungeon queues are a lobby, but they are a *virtual* lobby, you can do whatever you want until the Dungeon Finder tells you your group is ready. The encourages more people to go out and gather/work on crafting/leves/etc while waiting on dungeons, which in turn leads to a livelier server.
4) People will take the easier path, yet there are plenty of posts on these forums alone from people that refuse to use the dungeon finder when implemented, and refuse to make use of any addons, even the QOL ones that don't even help in group activities. Funny. If you hate the dungeon finder enough, you *don't have to use it*. To argue that you are being forced to is.... hilarious to say the least. -
10-20-2011, 03:12 AMnibelunc
Can you explain for a WOW hater how a "Dungeon Finder" works?
Will it destroy the FF in-game world atmosphere feeling with a GUI that lets you select a dungeon and enter it directly or has it more of an improved search system? As more GUIs and forms there are, as more destroyed the atmosphere, imo.
If it's a improved only-search system than I can live with it. -
10-20-2011, 03:12 AMDNO
You like SEEKING a party i like PLAYING in a party. Cross servers are a must.
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10-20-2011, 03:24 AMJinko
Another one of these threads eh.. this community either likes repeating itself or is just too lazy to see if an existing thread has been started.
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10-20-2011, 03:31 AMReliquia
If they implement this I'm hoping that they do it so that it's accessible for quests and mission, but honestly I hope that end-game content, HNMs and raiding stays within the linkshells. Honestly I think that end-game content doesn't become too casual, rather than having a system where you are just lucky there should be a system that awards dedication.
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10-20-2011, 03:37 AMyukikaze_yanagi
i don't see the problem in a cross-server finder. Sure, it ruin immersion running to the entrace, but considering this mmorpg will probably never have a huge community like WoW finding party can be a trouble, and this sure will help gaming.
Alas, i don't think someone will never ever use this finder to run endgame with strangers, so friendship within server it's safe. -
10-20-2011, 03:39 AMWolfieKick fixes this on the spot. GMs also solve this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
Ingenious loot roll rules fixes this. There is no ninja looting in WOW anymore.Quote:
steal loot,
Getting kicked in wow gives you a 30 or 45 minute timer before you can queue again. Tack on another 5-45 minutes on that depending on your class and role.Quote:
ruin a run and absolutely nothing came from it.
Really? Because my experience with WOW's dungeon finder was nowhere near as bad. One out of 30 or 40 dungeon runs I had a douche who mouthed off a lot, and never a ninja looter or person who purposely griefed. People were nice (and generally surprised) when I talked to them with respect and didn't perpetuate the cycle of hatred by mouthing off at them.Quote:
5 peoples time was wasted and 1 person got away with a huge reward or a laugh. This is how the community is damaged, it removes the need to treat others with respect and removed the need to be honest. And if someone wants to deny it happens they have not played WoW recently... when I played after cata about 1/5 partys had this happen with finder.
This doesn't even take into account the fact that characters in FFXIV aren't created and deleted as frequently as in WOW. I can almost guarantee you that douches in FFXIV will gain infamy even if they were douches only to people outside of their server; FFXIV is an entire community, it's not bounded by a server. Expect to see a lot of "_____ did ____ bad thing in my random dungeon run" server cross-posts.
This happened before the dungeon finder, when WOW only had a basic group finder. "Just go LFG for it". It happened in FFXI too, especially with COP missions or anything that was difficult or tedious. It's human nature. At least the dungeon finder gave an option for people, instead of "Hey can you help with X?" "No" "Ok, logging off now, cya guys later".Quote:
2) player A >>> "hey can you help with this dungeon", Linkshell >>> "just que up for it" , That there is destroying the purpose of a guild... and yea that happens a whole lot.
I get the feeling you didn't play WOW enough to judge this. There's plenty of guilds that are like families and shy away form the dungeon finder, and there were plenty of guilds BEFORE the dungeon finder that didn't act like a family. It's remained pretty much constant in WOW. WOW's community has always been harsh and unfriendly like that, which is why DF was made in the first place. It's a tool for people with few friends or who are not part of a good guild to still be able to play the game.Quote:
The linkshell does not help anymore, you are expected to do it with the finder. A linkshell/Guild is an extended family which is suppose to come together to help everyone advance, The less reliable on guilds to do raids there is the more worthless the guild in general becomes. Even top guilds the above mentioned happens (although it will be to a lesser extent)and when it does it dmgs that bond which makes a guild something you want to be in. The we are here for the greater good of the group, not just as a means of advancement.
Before DF, the "lobby" was you sitting in town shouting for a group. Now the lobby is you doing whatever you want solo, while waiting for your queue timer.Quote:
3) MMOs where born to remove the lobby system of the past, that was what made EQ and early mmos special and why they where designed in that way.
The dungeon finder allows people to spend MORE time outside of cities and outside of LFG chat, and actually playing the game. BC WOW and early Wrath WOW I was spending 20-30 minutes per dungeon run in town trying to find a group. Before I quit WOW, I was spending those 20-30 minutes doing my daily quests, finishing quests in a particular zone, PVPing, or doing whatever else there is to do in WOW as a solo player.Quote:
It was no longer a dungeon crawler but a whole world. Arguing that this is not a regression in the online game genre is simple ignorance. You can prefer the old ways but it is by definition a regression of why mmos came about.
The pick-up groups made by the dungeon finder IS the harder path. There were still tons of people who did pre-made groups in WOW, and guilds still exist now for dungeons and raids (even with a raid finder). People LIKE doing dungeons with people they can get familiar with, with people that they KNOW are good, and with people that they can be friends with.Quote:
4) The you can choose not to use it argument is void. People will not purposly take the harder path, it is not human nature.
I can tell you right now that it doesn't happen. People will jump at the opportunity when you said "premade". People f***ing love premades. Have you played WOW recently at all?Quote:
So if dungeon finder exist people will use it. Especially if it becomes the norm and people cannot make partys effectively in other ways. Basically it forces everyone to use it. Go into WoW and shout for a party in Ogrimar or Stormwind or something to try to get a dungeon together... I guarantee you will get about 20 responses with something like "Use the Dungeon finder noob."
No it's not. FFXIV party search is an unintuitive, boring piece of crap that doesn't offer ANY advantages over the "norm" (shouting). Go play WOW some more, you're not qualified to criticize DF because you don't know how it affected the community at all.Quote:
It is the same thing as the party search atm in XIV, IT works perfectly, but the community refuses to use it. Therefor it forces everyone to make partys in another way. Same will happen with finder.
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10-20-2011, 04:40 AMZumiQuote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
1. There is no Ninjaing in WoW dungeon finder, you can't vote kick people during loot rolls, everyone gets a fair shot at loot if they can use it. Sometimes you get people who will have arguments with eachother and maybe they pull bunch of mobs on you and get everyone killed and they leave. This really is no big deal at all you might lose some armor durability but just requeue the group and you got a new person to finish your dungeon. This rarely happens and it isn't even a big deal at all if it does. There are punishments for leaving a group early like 15 and 30 min timers where you have to wait to use the dungeon finder again.
2. Sounds like you have a bad guild/linkshell there if they don't want to do anything. When I play WoW I ask all the time on guild does anyone want to run a heroic dungeon. Usually get 1-4 people that want to go. Its more fun and usually faster to do stuff with people you know on the guild. You queue the group up and it fills out the other roles you need fairly quickly.
3. Duengeon finder is a good thing because it makes forming groups much easier, much more bearable then shouting in town for hours to make a group, which is the same goal you the same thing only with dungeon finder its automated and much faster no waiting around. Saves you shouting in town for like 30 min to an hour, which isn't fun to do if all you want to do is have some fun on your game log in and start playing right away. If you think about it with no dungeon finder the main hub town is the lobby where you sit around in waiting for people to shout for a group for you to join. FFXI had its Whitegate and Jeuno where people didn't want to leave because they were afraid they might miss a group forming and a person couldn't invite them if they were off doing something else. Once the group is made you go to wherever the camp is. So the dungeon finder just makes everything faster. There is really no reason to argue against an ease of life feature.
4. You actually can shout in town in WoW and get people to join your group then you can queue up with them. People who are dps only are always trying to get a healer or tank to join their group so they will get a faster queue some of the time people are willing to join. If you hate it so much you don't have to use it and run guild only groups, a lot of people do this in WoW even because they don't want to play with random people. -
10-20-2011, 04:42 AMCricaI disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfie
A /shout can only reach random players in the vicinity of the shout for the duration of it being on their chat screen.
The "Party Recruit" system in FFXIV allows players to recruit specific/random party members from ANYWHERE in the world who are ANYWHERE in the world for ANY type of group for a whole hour.
Yes, it takes being able to read and comprehend "what does this button do" in order to use the "party recruit" feature to form a party instead of spamming a single line over in over in once place in the game while hoping the few players in/joining the limited area of the game the /shout can reach are the correct level/class/want to party. -
10-20-2011, 04:57 AMZumiBasically works like this open a window on your UI pick what roles you can do, tank, damage, healer. Select what dungeons you want to do, or set it to random for more points to buy gear with. Then you hit find group, puts you in a queue with other people, usually in a few min it will find other people who are queued it will pop up with a window telling you your group is ready and you hit enter and start doing your dungeon. See below for a picture. Hopefully SE will make it similar to this when they make their version of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nibelunc
http://i.imgur.com/rTLPK.jpg -
10-20-2011, 11:06 PMellohwell
I agree that it "kills the main point of an MMO". By definition, an MMO isn't supposed to behave like CoD where you click the server/instance you want and get teleported into it with 17 other strangers.
An MMO is a massively social platform, and making everything instanced and making a dungeon-finder will basically negate the classic sense of a virtual world which people play MMOs for.
Ease of access isn't a win win. Because there are huge negatives that come with this. -
10-20-2011, 11:15 PMWolfieWho says an MMO isn't supposed to provide instant access to content and group matching to players?Quote:
Originally Posted by ellohwell
Actual definition of an MMO is a persistent world with multiplayer setting, which won't be changing at all. Neither will FFXIV being a social platform; it's impossible to have a multiplayer co-op game and not have it also be a social platform.Quote:
An MMO is a massively social platform, and making everything instanced and making a dungeon-finder will basically negate the classic sense of a virtual world which people play MMOs for.
There aren't. The only negatives are the FFXI purists whining because the newer generations don't have to wait 2 hours to find a party or 2 weeks to find a group for COP missions.Quote:
Ease of access isn't a win win. Because there are huge negatives that come with this.
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10-20-2011, 11:21 PMCeltodeno
This is yet another subject that comes down to "IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT USE IT"
The alternative to dungeon finder is doing it yourself. If you don't like the concept of using a dungeon finder you can still do it yourself.