POLL: Best healer for 4 mans?

Hello,

I just wanted to get a general consensus for what healer you prefer in 4 mans only.(Speed clearing) more specifically. I am of the mind that WHM<AST<SCH - what are your thoughts and why?

You can make a stawpoll for it if you want. But for level 50 and further, its WHM for sure.

I'm going SCH. Never really need to leave cleric stance.

SCH is the best in my opinion, unless you are able to pull massive groups of monsters (at least 8+) all the way through a particular instance. Even in dungeons where you get clusters that large, every pull is not of that size, so SCH tends to still beat WHM. WHM does a lot more damage on huge pulls than SCH can, but it can't compete against SCH on normal-sized pulls at all in terms of DPS. Since most dungeons go back and forth between pull sizes, I'd say SCH overall is the best. Astrologian is the worst in general for damage. I'm assuming that you are taking DPS into account, because if you are one of those healers that doesn't ever touch cleric stance, then there's really no difference at all. It's easy/lazy/slow clear mode no matter which you choose, at that point. WHM has three potent regen effects to mitigate the amount of incoming damage that will require an actual hard heal, SCH has an aoe regen and shields to slow the amount of incoming damage to do the exact same thing, and astro has either or. If all you're doing is healing, then they don't play much different from one another so saying one is better than the other is not really a meaningful assessment. On the healing side, they all fulfill the exact same functions, merely with different methodologies of achieving them. On the offensive end of the spectrum, they're all pretty different. Most of AST's attacks are just copied and pasted versions of white mage's spells, but they lack the other aspects that make WHM much stronger for AOE (Mainly assize and Aero III). SCH is just typically stronger than both of them in the damage front. As mentioned before, WHM wins once pull sizes get really large, but that is a rarity, and won't have much factor in overall dungeon completion time anyways, since they do lower boss DPS and lower DPS on all the smaller pulls the game forces you to engage due to barriers and such to prevent speed running.

To summarize; If you're DPSing, Scholar is typically the best. If you're doing nothing but healing, then it honestly doesn't matter at all. There's no reason to choose one over the other on four man content at this point, just go with whichever is your favorite in terms of aesthetics.

This is wholly based on how competent your party is. All three healers are great but I personally prefer speed running through shit so it depends.

SCH is weak with AoE but is great with single target.
WHM is undoubtedly the strongest when it comes to AoE damage.
AST comes close to WHM but also has its cards to buff people who are AoEing.

Honestly, either WHM or AST gets my vote. Scholar is nice but it doesn't pack the punch that spamming Holy + Aero III + Assize or Gravity + Enhanced Balance on BLM/AoE DPS does.

I think you're underestimating SCHs AOE capabilities in speed runs, Alexander.

Bio 40 + Miasma 35 + Bio 2 35 + Miasma 2 10 + SF 25 + Blizz 2 50 = 195 potency first 3 mobs
Bane 55 + SF 25 + Blizz 2 50 = 130 for 4th+ mob.
Coupled with a 3% attack speed buff for the whole party half the time, and fairy healing.

If you have 6 mobs that's 975 potency and the 3% buff half the time. A WHM using Holy will be pulling 200 + 180 + 160 + 140 + 120 + 100 (Total 900) and Aero 3 40 (Total 240) is pulling 1140 without a fairy healing or the buffs.

WHM will come out on top still, but SCH definitely packs a punch. (Due to set up time, Assize and such)

Yet it is for the reasons that Scholar falls behind. And your math is wrong.

This is assuming you have six mobs, and you neglect the fact that Bane's potency is reduced by half when you have four mobs or more. It is not the same for every single mob.

True. Sorry, in PVP while I type. But SCH still packs a decent punch.

Easiest answer : all three

They all have pro and con but as long as you master the timing to switch stance because your cripple tank cannot take more than 30 hit without being low life
It should be fine and fast

The tank must not be a LAZY one that forget his défensive CD XD

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But honestly
I think whm and SCH are on par
Ast is pretty weaker in DPS but can really boost dps

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And i'm sorry but SCH is the master in aoe
While the whm is best in single target
Especially in term of mana (the whm burn too much in aoe)

Scholar, it's just another DPS in 4 man dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Pence

I think you're underestimating SCHs AOE capabilities in speed runs, Alexander.
(...)
WHM will come out on top still, but SCH definitely packs a punch. (Due to set up time, Assize and such)

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uhm you are right with alex i lately switched from whm to sch for farming, cause our ast soloheals - so i never have to leave clearic at all – therefore sch > whm. but the topic was "speedrun with 4 people" so whm definitly outdamages sch here with his aoe bombs :o

so i would go with whm – aero/holy/assize is just great for trash mobs if you havent to cancel cleric that much.

I'd go WHM > SCH > AST, although I have to say AST may go way up in that rating if the right cards are drawn.
The difference between healer damage past 52 isn't THAT big, but keeping your aoe DPS classes' dmg boosted all the time can end up being a much, much greater asset than that 300 potency attack every one and a half minute ;)

But, as anything with AST, it ends up being based on luck :D

If you want raw burst DPS its definitely WHM for me, just Regen M2 Asylum CS and go. Also a Bene while you just spam holy <3
AST is imo next up as you can use cards and Gravity stuff down and if need more DPS time just CO and keep doing your stuff.
SCH I would put last due to DoTs and "single target only" and if you unlucky the DPS single target your dotted mob before you have them up/can Bane.
Just my PoV though ^^

I use AST in most cases for Dungeons... probably because its my worst of the 3 heals and I rarely use in raids :p
AST on 50 is worst though either way as it has no AoE skill >.>

As you mentioned speed clearing, WHM definitely wins out of the three. Aero III, Holy and Assize are all amazing spells.

If you are speed running a WHM is better simply for clearing trash and adds on bosses far more capable of attacking multiple targets at once and holy as an AoE attack + stun is still OP to the point of it being nerfed twice and still being really effective along with at lvl 60 having two more AoE attacks to play with including the insanely good Assize. This is just going by basics though there are always variances with skill but in 4 man speed runs it really depends on a lot of AoE which WHM adds to so it edges it.

Max Potency on Aoe Dots:

WHM:

Aero 3

320 over 24 seconds


SCH

Shadow Flare

250 over 30



By the time I set up dots as a sch, 3.5 holy's have already went off. (Not including presence of mind or a whm that builds spell build)


In the long run It's definitely a sch that will out aoe a whm with the combine power of Shadow Flare + dots + Blizzard Three. Not to mention when the whm runs out of mana.

In terms of a speed run though where everyone is equipped to do a lot of damage, a whm would win over a sch because of the less time needed to set up.

I know this doesn't apply to me as much cos' I'm tank vet and main, but for 4 man content, I prefer AST/SCH. True AST isn't the best with DPS but it's SpS stance, buffs and lightspeed...hard to go wrong.

Ah, I was waiting for OP to make a Straw Poll :\

I'd say that SCH is the better solo-heal job. That said, WHM is definitely fun and quite fluid with its skills.

Ast is shit in 4-man content compared to Whm if you want speed up the dungeon.
Gravity is far less efficient/easier than Holy.
Assize is so great.
Pom destroys light speed
Hots are easier.
And whm got aero 3
Stone III is better than Malefic II.

Speed clearing, even solo healing, WHM is the best choice. Burst DPS, and MP is hardly an issue because of the amount restored with Assize used on cooldown.

For fast groups with strong DPS, WHM surpasses SCH because the faster the mobs are dying, the more DPS the SCH loses via dot ticks. Whereas WHM has much more frontloaded AOE damage.

AST since i enjoy playing it more than the other two.

Play what ever of the three you enjoy the most.

However speed clears its WHM due to its burst aoe dps.

It doesnt really matter is the short answer. Play whichever u enjoy more in 4 man.

Scholar, it's like you are getting 2 for 1. A magician and a healing fairy.

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Originally Posted by ViscountofSeven

Scholar, it's like you are getting 2 for 1. A magician and a healing fairy.

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uhm... i dont want to be mean but this way of thinking is excaclty the reason why there are so much bad Schs out there... too much of them think the fairy would do their job - they cant... not for raiding and not for speed runs with overmobbing. they are just a supporting tool.

Sch. Because it's the only one I have 60.

And I'm a big fan of FernGully. I like to pretend I'm the lumberjack listening to Queen on my walkman marking up trees to pay my way through lumberjacking school by savagely eviscerating one of the worlds most valuable and non-renewable resources only to be shrunk down fairy size and fall in love with Eos, and her much sexier sister Selene. Little did I know they were the adventurous types and wanted to try something the ESRB don't even have a rating for.... yet. I could go on but I'll let you fill in the blanks.

The only downside to WHM is if you run with a drk. If the mobs die during/really quickly after Holy's stun has ended, there could be mp issues for the drk. So if I have drk I rather have sch healing and if I have pld/war whm. Sure it can be worked with whm+ drk but that requires you to have better communication than "hello" at the start of the DF expert roulet. But guess that's not to be considered as a scenario in this case. So if only basing it by the possible time of clear whm > sch > ast. Unless ast only pulls balances left right and center then it'd be whm > ast > sch.

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

The only downside to WHM is if you run with a drk. If the mobs die during/really quickly after Holy's stun has ended, there could be mp issues for the drk. So if I have drk I rather have sch healing and if I have pld/war whm. Sure it can be worked with whm+ drk but that requires you to have better communication than "hello" at the start of the DF expert roulet.

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uhm... i dont get what you are try to say...? ill havent encounter any probs with Drks in dailys/roulettes beeing a holy-spamming whm yet... :3

Dark Knights generally rely on Blood Price to keep their MP going for large pulls, which needs them to get directly struck to get it to activate. Holy stunning everything stops the mobs hitting the Dark Knight. Thus their MP regeneration becomes screwed over. With bad timing/communication, Holy (7 sec stun total) can easily cause half of Blood Price (15 sec duration) to go to waste, which is a large chunk of MP lost. :p

Then again, I'm used to tanking half the mobs anyway. What's with tanks thinking they can keep aggro with two Unleasheds/Overpowers/Flashes? ._.

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Originally Posted by Raminax

Dark Knights generally rely on Blood Price to keep their MP going for large pulls, which needs them to get directly struck to get it to activate. Holy stunning everything stops the mobs hitting the Dark Knight. Thus their MP regeneration becomes screwed over. With bad timing/communication, Holy (7 sec stun total) can easily cause half of Blood Price (15 sec duration) to go to waste, which is a large chunk of MP lost. :p

Then again, I'm used to tanking half the mobs anyway. What's with tanks thinking they can keep aggro with two Unleasheds/Overpowers/Flashes? ._.

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This. If the drk isn't using rest of his MP management skills efficiently it might halt the run for some time, what's a speedrun when tank can't do more than 2 aoe enmity moves and then be out of mp. But like I stated in my post. This can be prevented with better communication aka not a DF expert run with 4 random people.

ah k talking about mp-management i see - thx :)

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Originally Posted by Raminax

Then again, I'm used to tanking half the mobs anyway. What's with tanks thinking they can keep aggro with two Unleasheds/Overpowers/Flashes? ._.

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This is quite funny and happens really often, specially when the Tank is a Paladin.

Holy/Blood Price issue is a bit overblown, considering stun is preventing damage for quite a bit of time and doing damage at the same time whereas BP is depending on the DRK getting hit for MP. The WHM is going to be doing more damage in the long run.

Most complaints are because they are too happy to drain their MP too much for skills like AB when they didn't really need to zero out, you have the aggro already, you just want to do more damage even in Grit, we get it. The bad DRKs just don't know how to recover correctly.

While BP should be used on cooldown anyway. For the emergency MP boost, DRK should be using Carve and Spit, and keep using Souleater combo to keep MP up in the long run. A good DRK one will ensure they keep enough MP to handle chain pulling. Think of Warrior Overpower, you wouldn't be spamming it and running dry on TP out of necessity.

WHM's are easily the best DPS when it comes to dungeons. I regularly beat DPS while also healing, this includes AoE classes like BLM and SMN. Very good SMN's/BLM's can beat me though, along with skilled MNK's. SCH certainly has good AoE and single target DPS but WHM's are a step above. Holy stun + Regen keeps a tank topped off and combo'd with a Bene or Asylum/Tetra makes it so I only have to cast 1-2 Cure II's on the biggest pulls. Smaller pulls require no Cure's at all. Aero III and Assize are 2 of the best AoE spells in the game, and even after the Holy nerf it's still insane, the stun is what makes it so special though. The biggest issue with WHM is MP management, which can be solved by using Assize and Shroud of Saints regularly when they're off CD. Using the Holy stun's to your advantage by stunning the mobs and killing them quicker also helps negate the MP management issue.

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Originally Posted by Raminax

Dark Knights generally rely on Blood Price to keep their MP going for large pulls, which needs them to get directly struck to get it to activate. Holy stunning everything stops the mobs hitting the Dark Knight. Thus their MP regeneration becomes screwed over. With bad timing/communication, Holy (7 sec stun total) can easily cause half of Blood Price (15 sec duration) to go to waste, which is a large chunk of MP lost. :p

Then again, I'm used to tanking half the mobs anyway. What's with tanks thinking they can keep aggro with two Unleasheds/Overpowers/Flashes? ._.

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This is a valid point but it can be easily fixed by the DRK waiting to use Blood Price until the 3rd stun goes off. Simply looking at the healers cast bar fixes this issue.

I've had all three healers work wonderfully. In terms of raw power and speed I still prefer to have a whm with me.

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Originally Posted by Pence

If you have 6 mobs that's 975 potency and the 3% buff half the time. A WHM using Holy will be pulling 200 + 180 + 160 + 140 + 120 + 100 (Total 900) and Aero 3 40 (Total 240) is pulling 1140 without a fairy healing or the buffs.

WHM will come out on top still, but SCH definitely packs a punch. (Due to set up time, Assize and such)

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You will almost always have Assize up for each pull, so that must be factored in. Aero III = 370 Potency to everything it hits. So, 370 Aero III + 150 Holy(Average) + 300 Assize = 820 potency to everything, 2 of them being consistent throughout the pull as long as MP allows the Holy spam, which it usually does for 3/4 of the pull.

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Originally Posted by technole

For the emergency MP boost, DRK should be using Carve and Spit, and keep using Souleater combo to keep MP up in the long run. A good DRK one will ensure they keep enough MP to handle chain pulling. Think of Warrior Overpower, you wouldn't be spamming it and running dry on TP out of necessity.

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I'm not a professional Drk, but when i'm using Carve and Split I pair it with Dark arts (450 potency is hard to pass up lol, meaning no MP recover as well), I also Pair Souleater with Dark Arts. For good reason, the incredible increase in potency for both and the 100% Absorb on Souleater. Otherwise the recovery on souleater is pretty negligible. I NEVER use Carve and split without Dark arts. Maybe because I'm able to keep my MP at a decent rate with Grit/Darkside and Blood Weapon activation? Idk.

For an MP recovery combo I'd rather Delirium because of the increased dmg potency and potential debuff bar no mnk.. I mean in large pulls I suppose in terms of overall damage done, whm does have the advantage over Drk, but to me it's neither here nor there.

You might think it's overblown but if the time w/o resource recovery truly is 7 seconds that's kind of a big deal and a large loss of potential utility. It would be like taking stacks away from a warrior. The problem is Whm doesn't have a direct effect on how a warrior manages TP Or Stacks, but it does have a direct effect on how Drk manages MP. Ofc it's not some huge deal with some communication like ppl have said. whm is still just as viable as the other healers, even with Holy being used. But.. It is still something to take into consideration when the pair of them do inevitably come up.

There are always non-useless ways for drks to apply their MP in any situation, we can't just assume that all MP hungry drks are just squandering their MP away like idiots. Dark arts Souleater to me is bread n butter. I'd do it all day if I could. But there are also ways to mitigate dmg with our MP freeing any healer up to do other types of dmg like DoT's Stone3's and broils.... and w/e else... Astro has... fckin... Meteorite? Star shower? Whatever Give me card buffs slave >=(

Something to also keep in mind, Blood Price is also near worthless on single targets, It doesn't hurt or anything, but it's probably better to sit on it unless you're extremely hurting for MP or you're fighting a boss. But even then Blood Weapon is probably where it's at for those scenarios

We can go around in circles about it, and I'm not saying decent drks can't keep MP up with decent whms doin their Holy thing. However, at the end of the day your tanks MP takes priority and should be something healers should keep an eye out for incase they do need to recover MP. I frequently pull with lower than 20% MP because I have blood price up. That's not normally enough to keep threat. just saying be aware is all.

Edit: PLUS i'm sorta sick of people trashing tanks who're doing their best to learn a class. If they ask you not to Holy, for the love of god just spend an extra 5 minutes in a duty finder with them, mby some constructive criticism? But don't just inherently call them plebs just because they wanna try something new and tank for insta ques. Rome wasn't built in a day, Why does a tank need to be? Why does anyone need to be.

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Originally Posted by Garflex

This is a valid point but it can be easily fixed by the DRK waiting to use Blood Price until the 3rd stun goes off. Simply looking at the healers cast bar fixes this issue.

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Yes this works. But a drk doesn't always have enough MP going into a pull for anything more than a single Unleash and a few MP to keep Darkside active for a few seconds. I frequently go into Pulls with intentions of immediately recovering my MP with Blood price. I don't have time for your Holy spam. If I waited you would now become the tank, and I don;t recover MP because everything is on you, we wipe. Is this the sign of a bad tank? I wouldn't say so. The alternative is to sit around and wait for my MP to recover so you can use Holy, wasting time Whm's hope their DPS shaves off.

I'm just saying be aware. Not to not use Holy.

EDIT: I could just ease up on my MP expenditure, but not only is that incredibly boring it also means I'm on the other side of the problem.
As I see it: There are 2 problematic scenarios when it comes to grasping Dark knight. Not spending your MP and Over expenditure. You want to be somewhere in the middle.
If you spend too much MP you're slowing the group down and making things difficult for everyone. MP is as essential, if not more so than TP to a Dark knight. But If you're not spending enough MP you're probably keeping threat fine but you're also not living up to your potential. It means you're probably not using Dark Arts as frequently as you should, which translates into Less dmg, recovery and mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

Yes this works. But a drk doesn't always have enough MP going into a pull for anything more than a single Unleash and a few MP to keep Darkside active for a few seconds. I frequently go into Pulls with intentions of immediately recovering my MP with Blood price. I don't have time for your Holy spam. If I waited you would now become the tank, and I don;t recover MP because everything is on you, we wipe. Is this the sign of a bad tank? I wouldn't say so. The alternative is to sit around and wait for my MP to recover so you can use Holy, wasting time Whm's hope their DPS shaves off.

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On the first pull you will start with full MP, using a Blood Price once the Holy stun's wear off should give you enough MP to last until the Holy Stun's end on the next pull.

If I see DRK's struggling with MP I'll change my rotation to either Aero III + A couple Cure's/Regen if the pull is really big or Aero III + Aero II on the high HP mobs then go into Holy's.