Not sure when this became a thing, but...

Not every* healer can heal through the bombs in A2N. Please, for the love of all things, DRIVE THE MACHINE.

There were countless times where DPS was slow AND Bombs were spammed while waves were stacking.

/end rant

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Not ever healer can heal through the bombs in A2N. Please, for the love of all things, DRIVE THE MACHINE.

There were countless times where DPS was slow AND Bombs were spammed while waves were stacking.

/end rant

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With people now overgeared, it's the age old classic "outgear the mechanics" problem.

Skipped mechanics and aggressive strategies impact healers the most.

Healers should always be the number one determining factor with any skipped mechanic or aggressive strategy.

If the healer says "no," you listen.

If the healer says "jump," you say "how high?"

If the healer says "for the love of the Twelve, Tank, will you PLEASE equip you Fending gear?" then you equip your Fending gear.

I've had more than one group with healers who heal through the bombs. If I have a WHM with me, we can just fluid aura/blank the bombs instead of putting someone in the walker anyhoo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

With people now overgeared, it's the age old classic "outgear the mechanics" problem.

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You mean the classic problem of lazy ass players who can't be bothered to play the machanics and assume everyone overgears content and therefore play the game in 'stupid easy mode'?

You know, to all those overgeared mechanic skipping, players out there, I'm just going to say it; even if YOU overgear content, everyone else may not and to be honest you can't be a very good player if your way to beat something is to over gear it. If you are as good as you would have others believe, the play the damn mechanics, otherwise people should assume the only way you can beat stuff is by exploiting power creep in gear.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'm just going to say it; even if YOU overgear content, everyone else may not and to be honest you can't be a very good player if your way to beat something is to over gear it.

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:rolleyes:
/10characters

I can heal through the bombs in A2N. Most groups i go in dont bother with a driver.

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

I can heal through the bombs in A2N. Most groups i go in dont bother with a driver.

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I could see ignoring them in a premade, but assuming you can do so in DF may make your healers unhappy.

I know I hate seeing extra damage go out cause it cuts into my DPS time. :p

A Ilvl 209 BLM should not drive, but I still end up driving because no one does it. (or sucks at it)

Mechanics are like adds, ignore them... until the SMN gets sick of being reduced to floor marmalade and drives. And everyone screams at the SMN for getting sick of wiping because wiping a few times is faster than following mechanics.

It's funny; whether it's people speed running or trying to skip mechanics, I present to you a a trope that fits.

I've been going as DRK to get credit towards the mount. After a bunch of "these" situations, I went back as my main (NIN) to use the walker. Entering the battle, we had a BLM and AST arguing because the BLM wanted me to get out the walker and dps. The battle before that saw four wipes before people started leaving.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

You know, to all those overgeared mechanic skipping, players out there, I'm just going to say it; even if YOU overgear content, everyone else may not and to be honest you can't be a very good player if your way to beat something is to over gear it. If you are as good as you would have others believe, the play the damn mechanics, otherwise people should assume the only way you can beat stuff is by exploiting power creep in gear.

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Agreed! Those overgeared folks then get upset when someone messes up a mechanic because they were only taught how to speed/skip phases.

Actually I don't have problem with the bomb stack, still can dps as SCH too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Skipped mechanics and aggressive strategies impact healers the most.

Healers should always be the number one determining factor with any skipped mechanic or aggressive strategy.

If the healer says "no," you listen.

If the healer says "jump," you say "how high?"

If the healer says "for the love of the Twelve, Tank, will you PLEASE equip you Fending gear?" then you equip your Fending gear.

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Or You could just not deal with the whiny healer and kick them, because more than likely the next healer that joins won't be crap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Or You could just not deal with the whiny healer and kick them, because more than likely the next healer that joins won't be crap.

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He's right, though. Attempting to skip mechanics absolutely impacts healers the most and healer skill and comfort level with the content should be taken into account, especially for less skilled healers in DF.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Or You could just not deal with the whiny healer and kick them, because more than likely the next healer that joins won't be crap.

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One out of seven players in a group should not dictate how the group operates. If said player chooses to hold that group hostage with their demands, they are easily replaced. It's the same ideology of a healer refusing to play properly because a tank makes them mad or another player does something they don't want. Stop holding everyone hostage with your crappy behavior and act like an adult.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

One out of seven players in a group should not dictate how the group operates. If said player chooses to hold that group hostage with their demands, they are easily replaced. It's the same ideology of a healer refusing to play properly because a tank makes them mad or another player does something they don't want. Stop holding everyone hostage with your crappy behavior and act like an adult.

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Exactly. I know myself and a few other people who are down right tired of this new attitude that quite a few healers have developed of not wanting to do anything but their little staff/book/globe dance waiting to toss out a heal. We flat out refuse to put up with it anymore. If they ONLY want to heal, then I'm dropping tank stance, and chain pulling till your finger bleeds from pushing your heal button. Step up, use ALL your tools for your job, and if you can't switch jobs/quit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Exactly. I know myself and a few other people who are down right tired of this new attitude that quite a few healers have developed of not wanting to do anything but their little staff/book/globe dance waiting to toss out a heal. We flat out refuse to put up with it anymore. If they ONLY want to heal, then I'm dropping tank stance, and chain pulling till your finger bleeds from pushing your heal button. Step up, use ALL your tools for your job, and if you can't switch jobs/quit.

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Grats, you just ruined the run for everyone. Feel better now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dorander

If they ONLY want to heal, then I'm dropping tank stance, and chain pulling till your finger bleeds from pushing your heal button. Step up, use ALL your tools for your job, and if you can't switch jobs/quit.

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Logic failure. If they only want to heal then you should only want to tank, but apparently that's too much work for some people. Newsflash people, healing is their primary job. DPS comes second to everything, and if you're sabotaging the group for the secondary characteristics, the fault lies with you, not with the healer.

There are plenty of reasons why a healer can't DPS, but there are no excuses for why a healer can't heal. There are absolutely no reasons EVER that a tank shouldn't be tanking and doing their utmost to mitigate damage when their healer is struggling.

As for "one out of seven" dictating the run, sorry but that already happens. So-called 'Princess tanks' that need everything done their way (not looking at anyone in particular) or they'll ditch. Tanks being a resource that despite SE's best efforts still seems to be in short supply these days. If people want respect, they need to earn it. That means respecting the players in your group as well. If your healer simply can't keep up because you're skipping mechanics, maybe it's time to play by the games rules instead of your own.

Arrogance breeds arrogance, and no one likes a conceited fool.

Mechanics suck and boring. So healers need to get used to "ignore mechanics" strategy because it's the standard of FFXIV community now.

Stop complaining and use it as a chance to learn that strategy. You'll never be able to do it if you never let groups try it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Mechanics suck and boring. So healers need to get used to "ignore mechanics" strategy because it's the standard of FFXIV community now.

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Why do you play if this is how you feel? Honestly, why subject yourself to this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Exactly. I know myself and a few other people who are down right tired of this new attitude that quite a few healers have developed of not wanting to do anything but their little staff/book/globe dance waiting to toss out a heal. We flat out refuse to put up with it anymore. If they ONLY want to heal, then I'm dropping tank stance, and chain pulling till your finger bleeds from pushing your heal button. Step up, use ALL your tools for your job, and if you can't switch jobs/quit.

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The way I see the parties are like this : The tank are the main actor/tress, the healers are the managers and the dps are the secondary actors/tress,
A tank without its manager is next to nothing, but a manager can still leave and promote someone else, one of the "secondary" role for example...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Khanscott

Mechanics are like adds, ignore them... until the SMN gets sick of being reduced to floor marmalade and drives. And everyone screams at the SMN for getting sick of wiping because wiping a few times is faster than following mechanics.

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That SMN could easily just use garuda to knock the bombs back and not have to touch the gobwalker.

WHMs can use fluid aura and MCH can use blank too.

There's honestly no reason to use the walker in a2n if you have any two of those 3. You don't need stuns or vulnerability stacks in normal at all.

Communication. Just communicate. With most tanks and groups I play with a lot, I'm a very offensive-minded healer, and it works really well because the tank knows that and manages cooldowns really nicely. I even do it with a couple tanking friends wearing their all STR gear. Move over to DF or PF and who knows how anyone is going to play, what gear they have or how (or sadly if) they might use their defensive cooldowns. It's no wonder healers back off and simply do not dps. Just be sure people know that ignoring mechanics is what you wish to do so they can adjust accordingly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Snippers

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I think his point was very poorly stated, but I have a slight disagreement with you.

You see, a tank has multiple ways to tank, depending on the situation. Just like how a healer has multiple ways to play, depending on the situation. A tank has the option to drop to DPS stance and push damage (as long as they maintain threat) and he's merely saying that - if you're not going to capatlize on the fact that I'm going to mitigate more damage in tank stance, then I'm going to capatilize on the fact that you only want to do healing and deal more DPS to speed the run up.


As long as he isn't, say, dropping to tank stance and ignoring mitigation completely (I.E., no CD's whatsoever), this is actually a pretty acceptable mindset. I dislike how whiny he was in his statement of it, but it's a fair point - reacting to your party members and synergizing well with them is important.

Now, if a healer's genuinly struggling to heal and you suddenly drop to DPS stance and wind up dying like an idiot? Then yea... Badtank/10. But most tanks are bad since the Warrior Epidemic, what do you expect there? ;p

As for the idea of kicking people... I mean, it's a group decision. If you kick a healer because they're unable to dice it, that's fine. But I find it'd be better to do something to help the healer than to just sit there complaining about the fact that they couldn't keep up with heals.

There's nothing I hate more than seeing people die because of failed mechanics, and people responding with 'lolhealers.' It's like the onus to do a DPS/Tank's mechanics is on them while they just don't care enough to do their own job.

Lastly, I wanted to comment on your thought of 'princess tanks'... Because, as a tank, I do take a mild exception to this. I want to say that, SE does not do much to really encourage tanks. Roulette bonuses give a pittance of gil. There's really no reason for me to do roulettes as my tank outside of faster que times.

But then, let's look at Void Ark. We are 1 of 3 tanks. There's a lot more tanks, so we wait 30 minutes. Don't dare mention that you have to wait 30 minutes, or you'll be verbally berated for it. I've seen people that said "Man that 30 minute que sucked ;-;" just looking to talk to their alliance, and what kind of reactions do they get?

"lol now u kno how dps feel. Suck it up."

People wonder why people don't play tanks. It's because they're taken for granted and often times abused by parties. We're expected to know exactly how much every person can handle pull wise, and the moment we fail to read them people either A) pull for us and expect us to grab hate off them or B) just verbally berate us afterwards. We're expected to DPS comprable to other DPS now, too, as well as maintain a certain degree of self-healing and mitigation so that other people can DPS instead of donig their job.

I'm sorry. "Princess Tanks" get a lot of crap for what they do. And you'll always be treated like the 'last mythical bad tank' they had.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Logic failure. If they only want to heal then you should only want to tank, but apparently that's too much work for some people. Newsflash people, healing is their primary job. DPS comes second to everything, and if you're sabotaging the group for the secondary characteristics, the fault lies with you, not with the healer.

There are plenty of reasons why a healer can't DPS, but there are no excuses for why a healer can't heal. There are absolutely no reasons EVER that a tank shouldn't be tanking and doing their utmost to mitigate damage when their healer is struggling.

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I'm not going to get too much into this because this was discussed in a 100+page topic not too long ago. I don't exactly agree with the person you're quoting either, mostly because I do not believe that stepping down to the level of another player makes you the correct one; if anything, you're both wrong. At the same time, you're point has a double-standard. You're saying that tanks are expected to play to the best of their abilities and use their cooldowns to help the group as much as they can (as they should), but then say that it's ok for healers not to play at the best of their abilities.

DPSing as a healer IS optional, but context matters. If you're dealing with a carbon-paper tank, and DPS who don't bother dodging, yes, you have every reason not to DPS because you're stuck babysitting your group. On the other hand, if you're just standing there for 10+ seconds not doing absolutely anything, then there is no reason not to DPS. Your job as any role is to help the group get the clear using the skills and spells that you were given. Doing the minimum that your role requires you to do when the situation opens for you to do more is quite close-minded and selfish (not addressing this to you personally, but to the many people that think like this) and we as a community should not encourage this level of play.

You know, if this is going to be another healer DPS fiasco, we could just bump up t hat megathread it had.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Grats, you just ruined the run for everyone. Feel better now?

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Run wasn't ruined for anyone but the lazy healer who thought they could be carried, they were forced to work like everyone else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Logic failure. If they only want to heal then you should only want to tank, but apparently that's too much work for some people. Newsflash people, healing is their primary job. DPS comes second to everything, and if you're sabotaging the group for the secondary characteristics, the fault lies with you, not with the healer.
There are plenty of reasons why a healer can't DPS, but there are no excuses for why a healer can't heal. There are absolutely no reasons EVER that a tank shouldn't be tanking and doing their utmost to mitigate damage when their healer is struggling.
As for "one out of seven" dictating the run, sorry but that already happens. So-called 'Princess tanks' that need everything done their way (not looking at anyone in particular) or they'll ditch. Tanks being a resource that despite SE's best efforts still seems to be in short supply these days. If people want respect, they need to earn it. That means respecting the players in your group as well. If your healer simply can't keep up because you're skipping mechanics, maybe it's time to play by the games rules instead of your own.
Arrogance breeds arrogance, and no one likes a conceited fool.

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Using all of their abilities is their primary job. Doing only half of their skillset is a disservice to everyone in the group. The logic is sound: If they only want to use half of their job skills that they 'prefer' then, I am only going to do the half I 'prefer.' They are still healing, and I'm still keeping threat, but I absolutely will not make it easier on them by mitigating the damage if they aren't willing to toss an aero/bio/ect or something on the enemy. What if the dps, started doing that BS as well? Bards did it for ages, alot still do: they don't use their songs, and they were called failbards, so don't be a failhealer.

These "princess tanks" as you call them aren't just being dictators. They are the ones who are expected to research the dungeon/raid/whatever know the mechanics and lead the rest of the group, and even explain things to those to lazy to do any research for themselves. If anyone deserves the princess title it's the healer. "I don't want to dps, do this my way, don't pull that many, don't pull so fast.. ect ect ect." Oh, and really let that last part of the line you wrote sink in "Maybe it's time to play by the games rules instead of your own."

Healers. Are. Not. Just. Heals.

Everyone has to do their part, and if they can't play to the best of their ability as that job, they really do need to switch jobs or find another game that fits their play style.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

You know, if this is going to be another healer DPS fiasco, we could just bump up t hat megathread it had.

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It will turn into that because the Healer main clearly has a biased and entitled opinion. Even went as far as to interpret other people's opinions, express them as incorrect facts, and then berate said people for being intolerant of players who choose to grief and pout.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Launched

Stop complaining and use it as a chance to learn that strategy. You'll never be able to do it if you never let groups try it.

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It has nothing to do with me learning. Some of us die because mechanics are either:

...being ignored because of Bombs blasting us constantly.

...healers NOT using Fluid Aura purposely to send a message.

I only enter as tank or DPS, and I ALWAYS use the walker when on my NIN. Otherwise, if I'm tanking, the bomb blasts have nothing to do with me, unless I want to continue to get chewed out by the melee DPS who need to "chase" the mobs because I'm running mobs away from the bombs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

One out of seven players in a group should not dictate how the group operates. If said player chooses to hold that group hostage with their demands, they are easily replaced. It's the same ideology of a healer refusing to play properly because a tank makes them mad or another player does something they don't want. Stop holding everyone hostage with your crappy behavior and act like an adult.

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Not often. I can upload videos via PS4 of how many times a group kicked a player, and it took forever to get another to the point where we just re-queue.

A huge issue, which I haven't seen mentioned yet, is when DPS enter the boss area and immediately say "I'm not taking the walker."

In most of these instances the statement isn't part of a larger conversation whether the group decides to knockback the bombs, or heal through them.

As a well geared healer I'm usually fine with whatever (healing through, dpsing, etc.), even if it ends up with bombs staying in place and enemies not being repositioned. However, the fact that almost no DF groups agree on the strategies here or even bring them up is the real problem.

I've defaulted to saying that I will give a commendation to whomever takes up the walker if it starts to get messy (or passively commend someone who moves them). I think instead of arguing which strategy is correct on the forums when most people wont even communicate it in-game or read it here, it's far more useful to just reward compatible play in others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

There are plenty of reasons why a healer can't DPS, but there are no excuses for why a healer can't heal. There are absolutely no reasons EVER that a tank shouldn't be tanking and doing their utmost to mitigate damage when their healer is struggling.

As for "one out of seven" dictating the run, sorry but that already happens. So-called 'Princess tanks' that need everything done their way (not looking at anyone in particular) or they'll ditch. Tanks being a resource that despite SE's best efforts still seems to be in short supply these days. If people want respect, they need to earn it. That means respecting the players in your group as well. If your healer simply can't keep up because you're skipping mechanics, maybe it's time to play by the games rules instead of your own.

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I'm one of the healers that get flagged for NOT putting effort into dps'ing. That said, it's the reason why I DON'T play WHM anymore (unless for a quick Titan Ex undersized).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

That SMN could easily just use garuda to knock the bombs back and not have to touch the gobwalker.

WHMs can use fluid aura and MCH can use blank too.

There's honestly no reason to use the walker in a2n if you have any two of those 3. You don't need stuns or vulnerability stacks in normal at all.

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Why not? What if healer can't keep up with the damage?
What if DPS is low and you begin to get wave stacks?

No thanks! I'll just keep going as NIN and keep using the Walker. Feel free to leave the group if I'm there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shem

I've defaulted to saying that I will give a commendation to whomever takes up the walker if it starts to get messy (or passively commend someone who moves them). I think instead of arguing which strategy is correct on the forums when most people wont even communicate it in-game or read it here, it's far more useful to just reward compatible play in others.

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If all people had your mindset, I'd be maxed out on Comms. Unfortunately, since the Walker is becoming a thing that people want to ignore, the Comms usually go to the Healer is he/they heal through the extra damage or to the tanks who reposition the mobs from the bombs.

Shorter version of knuckleheads co-signing this foolishness:

"My parser's more important than actually being a team player."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Why not? What if healer can't keep up with the damage?
What if DPS is low and you begin to get wave stacks?

No thanks! I'll just keep going as NIN and keep using the Walker. Feel free to leave the group if I'm there.

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The stun is to handle mechanics in savage. Soldiers blow up and deal massive raid wide damage if they aren't stunned and hardminds buff surrounding mobs. You don't have any of that in normal.

Also, there isn't enough damage going out for a healer to get behind unless you've got much larger problems.

You know what would be just as useful as going NIN and using the gobwalker? Staying on WHM and putting fluid aura back on your hot bar.

And if no WHMs are on your team, what then?