Suggestion: Add Poetics to HW Levelling Dungeons

Just an idea I had. If they did this, you could level your other classes while you grinded poetics for your relic. I mean, the level 50 dungeons give XP now and they give poetics, so why not the 51-59 dungeons? I think this would be a nice quality of life improvement. What are your thoughts?

It would be nice, however the reason they won't do this and most likely will never do this is due to the fact there's a large influx of new players that haven't cleared a lot of these dungeons. So the incentive for the veteran players to "help" the newbies is our need for poetics. So if you take that away it will increase the queue time for new players. So for now it won't happen.

The 51-59 dungeons are leveling dungeons, the level 50 dungeons were end game dungeons. There is a world of difference.

The 51-59 dungeons are like the 15-49 dungeons. Exp and gold only.

Only end game dungeons have tome drops.

To my understanding, it's important to the Dev team to only encourage players to do either 2.x content, or Alex. I think providing reward for Heavensward content outside of Alex goes against their entire design philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

To my understanding, it's important to the Dev team to only encourage players to do either 2.x content, or Alex. I think providing reward for Heavensward content outside of Alex goes against their entire design philosophy.

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That's not really true, considering HW FATEs, leveling dungeons, Vanu Vanu Beast Tribe quests, HW treasure maps, and level 60 dungeons (for Law) all contribute to the Anima questline during one of the three steps. The only HW contents that don't contribute in some way toward a finished Anima is Great Gubal Library (which honestly seems pretty weird to me, but I suppose that means we'll see it used in a later step). The HW Trials don't contribute much, but I imagine we'll see them used in another step, just like Great Gubal.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

That's not really true, considering HW FATEs, leveling dungeons, Vanu Vanu Beast Tribe quests, HW treasure maps, and level 60 dungeons (for Law) all contribute to the Anima questline during one of the three steps. The only HW contents that don't contribute in some way toward a finished Anima is Great Gubal Library (which honestly seems pretty weird to me, but I suppose that means we'll see it used in a later step). The HW Trials don't contribute much, but I imagine we'll see them used in another step, just like Great Gubal.

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Heh it was /sarcasm, thought that part was implied. That said, they've done a lot to have us gobble up and forget about a lot of the great Heavensward content. For example, I've cleared Bismark around 5 times, once for myself and 4 times to help others get by. It was a very fun fight, but I never had incentive to farm it. It's now no longer fun because we were thrown up the ilvl so fast that it's a cakewalk and has lost all of it's fun-value. I feel like a lot of Heavensward content is this way.

Further, to your counter argument, your methods of obtaining stuff for the Anima relic are all significantly slower than the alternative methods. So if you consider opportunity cost, then you are handicapping yourself by doing those.

Why they don't add unidentified tokens for ESO? Would be great for players that don't play more than 2~3 classes, I have basically 2000 useless esoterics. I try to buy some gear for glamour just to be able to cap the weekly 450.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Further, to your counter argument, your methods of obtaining stuff for the Anima relic are all significantly slower than the alternative methods. So if you consider opportunity cost, then you are handicapping yourself by doing those.

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Sure, Alex is the fastest route, but not by much. I only did around 50 Alexander runs, tops. The most efficient way to grind is the one that won't exhaust you so that you can keep going. I did most of mine with Hunts and Roulettes. Alex is also only particularly more efficient if you get a pre-formed party together, as queue times add up for it pretty quickly, as do DF wipes.

But yes, they did sort of drop the ball with the relevancy of some of the HW content (Bismarck being the most egregious example, but I'd also include Ravana in that). Alexander Normal is really the same way, as they invalidated the gear very quickly for it.

Hmm, maybe if the poetic reward wasn't as high? Maybe 50 poetics a run? That way, the level 50 dungeons are still faster, but if you wanna get poetics while leveling up another class, you're still making some progress towards your relic.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Sure, Alex is the fastest route, but not by much. I only did around 50 Alexander runs, tops. The most efficient way to grind is the one that won't exhaust you so that you can keep going. I did most of mine with Hunts and Roulettes.

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I also did mine via hunts.

I did about 500 hunts, ish. 50 runs of Alex and roulettes.

However, doing Hunts is quite a bit faster than farming say Neverreap for law.

Anyway, again, I was just making a bitter sarcastic comment. Just every day I am slightly more disappointed with this game than the last. Having fun playing WoW and BnS right now, and just logging in for raid night.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

However, doing Hunts is quite a bit faster than farming say Neverreap for law.

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I had better luck with Neverreap and Fractal to be honest than I did A3 and A4 as they're fairly wipe-prone on my data center. But I didn't actually do them outside of Roulettes very often because I tried to diversify what I did to avoid burnout.

I haven't been able to enjoy WoW since Wrath of the Lich King, honestly. Cataclysm ruined the game for me and Mists only made it worse. Throw in the fact that I always preferred FFXI's art style to WoW's even though FFXI was quite dated and I doubt I'll play another MMO until FFXVII (or whatever numbered title gets to be the next MMO).

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I had better luck with Neverreap and Fractal to be honest than I did A3 and A4 as they're fairly wipe-prone on my server. But I didn't actually do them outside of Roulettes very often because I tried to diversify what I did to avoid burnout.

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Exactly the same. I didn't do any A3, and I had too many A4 wipes that I only did 10-20 runs (can't remember which).

However, if you compare to hunts there are 17 ARR A ranks and 12 HW A ranks, and hunts spawn every 4 hours on average. An ARR A rank provides 40 allied seals, 15 centurio seals, 30 poetics, 10 law (IIRC) and a HW A rank provides 40 Centurio Seals, 30 Poetics, 10 Law. So, from A ranks if you are soley hunting, every 4 hours you get an average of

17*40=680 allied seals, 30*17+30*12 = 870 poetics, + 10*17+10*12 = 290 Law

Then there are 17 ARR S ranks and 6 HW S ranks. I found HW S ranks uncommon, but ARR S ranks spawned fairly predictably shortly after their 2-3 day cooldown. So we'll say 17 ARR on average 3 days, or 5.6 per day, so on average you will find 1 per 4 hour session above. So in that 4 hour session you will have 100 poetics, 100 allied seals, 30 law.

So per 4 hours at Hunts

780 Allied seals = 78% of an item
970 poetics = 143% of an item
310 law = 46% of an item
Total = 2.67 items

Optimally, with running Neverreap, let's say you do once per 15 minutes (unlikely to average 15 minutes unless you get a preset group, but for sake of argument) = 4x per hour = 16 runs in a 4 hour session. You'll receive 1600 law = 2.35 items - this assumes 0 wait time on queues, which is also unlikely.

That said, if you were able to make a preset group that wanted to farm Neverreap (doubtful lol), and you all put out your best with great DPS you could probably complete it in 10 minutes average, or 6 runs per hour = 24 runs per session = 2400 law = 3.52 items per hour.

However, more likely, you'll have 20 minute runs with a 5 minute queue (you'll be in a quickish queue with crappy DPS or queue as DPS and be in a longer queue) for = 960 law per 4 hour session = 1.4 items

Now with Alex, you need 10 runs per item (with some bonus law thrown in). You're probably looking at 7-10 mins average per run (including queue times etc), so I'll use 8 for this. That means in 2 hours you'll do 30 runs for a total of 3.44 items per session

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Now with Alex, you need 10 runs per item (with some bonus law thrown in). You're probably looking at 7-10 mins average per run (including queue times etc), so I'll use 8 for this. That means in 2 hours you'll do 30 runs for a total of 3.44 items per session

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Just about all of my Alex runs were longer than 10 minutes including queue times (the only turn that was regularly shorter than that was A1, and that was only for the first week or so on my data center), so at least from my experience, they're a lot closer than they appear if you factor in average runs (which you do for Neverreap but don't do for Alex—8 minutes is quite quick).

I tended toward Fractal personally (I find it runs more smoothly than Neverreap with PUG groups and therefore ends up generally being faster). 4-mans were also nice because I could pair up with just one friend and have a significant impact on the speed/efficiency of the run, whereas I'd need three or four to really impact how fast an Alex run would go.

How are poetics even a problem? The game practically shoves them in your pocket at every turn.

I have to work way harder at getting Law. o.O

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Just about all of my Alex runs were longer than 10 minutes including queue times (the only turn that was regularly shorter than that was A1, and that was only for the first week or so on my data center), so at least from my experience, they're a lot closer than they appear if you factor in average runs (which you do for Neverreap but don't do for Alex—8 minutes is quite quick).

I tended toward Fractal personally (I find it runs more smoothly than Neverreap with PUG groups and therefore ends up generally being faster). 4-mans were also nice because I could pair up with just one friend and have a significant impact on the speed/efficiency of the run, whereas I'd need three or four to really impact how fast an Alex run would go.

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oh 8 was my average, for Alex 1. Out of 30-40, most took 7 minutes with a 1 minute queue - I had a couple at 4 minutes and like one or two at 15. I equate the 8 minute average of A1N with the 15 minute average of Neverreap - they're sort of average/optimal, but can easily move up or down via group composition and queue times.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

Why they don't add unidentified tokens for ESO? Would be great for players that don't play more than 2~3 classes, I have basically 2000 useless esoterics. I try to buy some gear for glamour just to be able to cap the weekly 450.

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This is almost guaranteed to happen in patch 3.2 (currently scheduled for February), since SE will add a new tomestone for us to cap weekly, and allow us to trade in our Law Tomes for Esos at 2:1
All current items available for Law currently will be available at a cheaper price in Esos,and probably have an end result of being less grindy to accumulate. My primary question is whether they'll convert Poetics into Law tomes or not.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

oh 8 was my average, for Alex 1. Out of 30-40, most took 7 minutes with a 1 minute queue - I had a couple at 4 minutes and like one or two at 15. I equate the 8 minute average of A1N with the 15 minute average of Neverreap - they're sort of average/optimal, but can easily move up or down via group composition and queue times.

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Yeah, A1 is actually really efficient. The other floors of Alex though, not so much. I think of the 50 or so runs I did, 20 were A1, 10 were A2 (I thought it would be faster, but once I had one token I had to "finish" the 10 runs), and 20 (it might have been 30, for a total of 60 runs, I don't quite remember) were A4, and the only one that was really worth the time upon reflection was A1. Roulettes and Hunts just ended up being far more efficient (and also a lot more relaxed—something that I find to be very important on longer grinds like this).

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Yeah, A1 is actually really efficient. The other floors of Alex though, not so much. I think of the 50 or so runs I did, 20 were A1, 10 were A2 (I thought it would be faster, but once I had one token I had to "finish" the 10 runs), and 20 (it might have been 30, for a total of 60 runs, I don't quite remember) were A4, and the only one that was really worth the time upon reflection was A1. Roulettes and Hunts just ended up being far more efficient (and also a lot more relaxed—something that I find to be very important on longer grinds like this).

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Yeah, I 100% agree. Both A4 and A3 actually can be pretty quick if you have a premade group with very skilled players etc, but in DF - different story. Either way, doing 10 runs of any floor is more than enough to bore me, that if I had done much more I probably would have uninstalled. Thankfully hunts were a way to get what we needed.

Simply because there are alot and I mean ALOT of new players who need the lvl 50 dungeons. As soon as you reduce the number of people queuing for 50 roulette or the dungeons themselves. Thats when you start hurting the system they have in place. Even if you add it alongside it there are certain people that would run the leveling queues only to be able to use post 50 skills.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Yeah, I 100% agree. Both A4 and A3 actually can be pretty quick if you have a premade group with very skilled players etc, but in DF - different story. Either way, doing 10 runs of any floor is more than enough to bore me, that if I had done much more I probably would have uninstalled. Thankfully hunts were a way to get what we needed.

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Definitely, I was bored with Alexander before I had even finished a full set of 190 gear.

New tomes in next patch which will likely mean poetics are gone.

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New tomes in next patch which will likely mean poetics are gone.

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I don't see this happening yet. Since the holidays there's probably still a lot of relatively new amount of players without Heavensward Access. Usually the way things go the old one is removed and the new one replaces the old currency. So most likely Law will be replaced Eso will replace it and the new currency will replace Eso. This seems more likely than just removing poetics and replacing it with law which wouldn't make sense. Since poetics really only exists for people without expansion access.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

Why they don't add unidentified tokens for ESO? Would be great for players that don't play more than 2~3 classes, I have basically 2000 useless esoterics. I try to buy some gear for glamour just to be able to cap the weekly 450.

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So players can use eso to buy gear instead of spending it for another weapon.

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Originally Posted by CrystalRainbow

New tomes in next patch which will likely mean poetics are gone.

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Poetics will remain as the lv50 tomes forever. What will be gone is law.

I wounder where they will put the law gear. Into the new dungeons or into the Centurio hunt shop?

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Originally Posted by Lyshell

words

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You must have not seen how the old tomes worked in 2.0:

First we had Philosophy and Mythology, followed by Soldiery. Philosophy got canned and people could trade them for Mythology. Poetics then came next and Mythology was no longer worth anything, so that was up for Soldiery exchange. Right now we have Poetics, Law, and Esoterics, so once the WTF tomestones come out, Poetics will be trashed and you can trade yours for Law. To keep Poetics in 3.2 and beyond is going to be a cluster#$@! on the UI and it's only going to add more of the token problem we have right now, especially when we get even more tomestones later on. Law tomestones doesn't have to be exclusive to 3.0.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

To keep Poetics in 3.2 and beyond is going to be a cluster#$@! on the UI and it's only going to add more of the token problem we have right now, especially when we get even more tomestones later on. Law tomestones doesn't have to be exclusive to 3.0.

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Keeping Poetics will cause no issues with the UI. Even if it did, it can simply be adjusted, like it's been before.

What you see now in the currency tab is: Soldiery, Poetics, Law and Eso. What will happen is Soldiery disappears off the UI, and then the 4 tomes will be Poe, Law, Eso and the new tome. Then in 3.4 Law disappears and Eso becomes the currency you can trade for the 3.4 tome.

But here is the other issue. If Law becomes the new LV50 tomestone, then what would it be used for when Poetics was the only thing needed beforehand? If you keep Law to 60, then what is it going to be used on when Eso gets uncapped and is set to 2000 max while the WTF tomes are the new 450 capped? From what I experienced, the tomestones are always in the same pattern: One tomestone is used as the poor man's token for gear which is cheap and easily obtainable while the more expensive tomestone are capped and take time to earn for the more glamorous gear.

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Originally Posted by Felis

I wounder where they will put the law gear. Into the new dungeons or into the Centurio hunt shop?

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If we go by 2.0 then the Law gear will be dungeon drops. The Eso gear will be obtained from different dungeon drops (and eventually rewards from the Level 60 job quests) and the gear that will come after will go on the Centurio shop

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

But here is the other issue. If Law becomes the new LV50 tomestone, then what would it be used for when Poetics was the only thing needed beforehand? If you keep Law to 60, then what is it going to be used on when Eso gets uncapped and is set to 2000 max while the WTF tomes are the new 450 capped? From what I experienced, the tomestones are always in the same pattern: One tomestone is used as the poor man's token for gear which is cheap and easily obtainable while the more expensive tomestone are capped and take time to earn for the more glamorous gear.

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When Eso becomes uncapped, then Law will be removed from circulation. Any spare Law players have will become tradeable for Eso. Same thing that happened to Philo when Myth became uncapped, then Myth when Soldiery became uncapped.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

If we go by 2.0 then the Law gear will be dungeon drops. The Eso gear will be obtained from different dungeon drops (and eventually rewards from the Level 60 job quests) and the gear that will come after will go on the Centurio shop

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Unlikely. Current dungeons drop i185 gear, plus Soldiery gear never went into dungeons, but a separate i100 gear set was introduced instead. I suspect Law gear will either become purchasable with Eso, or through Centurio seals.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

When Eso becomes uncapped, then Law will be removed from circulation. Any spare Law players have will become tradeable for Eso. Same thing that happened to Philo when Myth became uncapped, then Myth when Soldiery became uncapped.

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This is what I anticipate will happen. Yoshi did mention some time ago that Poetics would be staying in the game for a long time. It's probably simpler for them this way. If they shift Law down to the level 50 Tomestone, they'd have to adjust the tomestone (and possibly the values) associated with almost 20 level 50 dungeons, plus all the level 50 Trials, all of the raids, and so on. If they instead just leave Poetics where it is, they only have to change the tomestones/values for the (currently much smaller) suite of Heavensward content.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

When Eso becomes uncapped, then Law will be removed from circulation. Any spare Law players have will become tradeable for Eso. Same thing that happened to Philo when Myth became uncapped, then Myth when Soldiery became uncapped.



Unlikely. Current dungeons drop i185 gear, plus Soldiery gear never went into dungeons, but a separate i100 gear set was introduced instead. I suspect Law gear will either become purchasable with Eso, or through Centurio seals.

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The Yasha gear isn't the Soldiery equivalent, its the Philosophy equivalent, which is why I think it will be dungeon drops (thought not nessicarely in Antitower/Amdapor City), I was establisng a prediticon based on 2.0's own progression structure (thought admitiably the dungeons there were overleveled by the Mythology Artifact gear up until 3.4)

That reminds me, was Darklight gear originally in the dungeons they drop in when these same dungeons were released?

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

That reminds me, was Darklight gear originally in the dungeons they drop in when these same dungeons were released?

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Yes, when that trio of dungeon released, they dropped the Darklight gear. There's no dungeon at present that could fill that role for Yasha gear, though, which is why I'm skeptical that the gear will be added to a dungeon. It'll probably just be available at a lower tomestone cost or via Centurio seals.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

Why they don't add unidentified tokens for ESO? Would be great for players that don't play more than 2~3 classes, I have basically 2000 useless esoterics. I try to buy some gear for glamour just to be able to cap the weekly 450.

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This

/10char

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

The Yasha gear isn't the Soldiery equivalent, its the Philosophy equivalent, which is why I think it will be dungeon drops (thought not nessicarely in Antitower/Amdapor City),

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I know, but like Soldiery they can be upgraded and when it came to that gear a new i100 set was released then instead. That's the point I was trying to make. Either way, the main reason you're unlikely to see Law gear in dungeons is because having gone from i160 to i185 it wouldn't make sense to then go to i170.

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which is why I think it will be dungeon drops (thought not nessicarely in Antitower/Amdapor City), I was establisng a prediticon based on 2.0's own progression structure (thought admitiably the dungeons there were overleveled by the Mythology Artifact gear up until 3.4)

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The progression structure in 3.0 isn't a like-for-like as 2.0, so we can't really go off that.

2.0: i55 (WP) & i60 (AK)
2.1: i60 (Pharos, CM, Haukke)
2.2: i70 & Darklight (Lost City, Brayflox, Halatali)
2.3: i80 (Tam Tara, Hullbreaker, Stone Vigil)
2.4: Myth (Qarn, Sastasha, Snowcloak)
2.5: i100 (Keeper, WP, AK)

Meanwhile in 3.0 we went from i160 to i185, so it going to the new set of dungeons is unlikely. Older set of dungeons are also unlikely because the ilvls of their current gear doesn't match the Law gear.

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That reminds me, was Darklight gear originally in the dungeons they drop in when these same dungeons were released?

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Yes, along with new i70 gear.