Can anyone think of a good reason why...

-Ammo doesn't last forever until used (unlike Aetherflow)
-Spirits Within's potency scales with HP

I can't. It wouldn't be game breaking for ammo to last like Aetherflow, or for Spirits Within to have 300 potency regardless of HP as far as I can imagine.

Well jeez, everyone knows PLD dps is OP...

If you could just have infinite ammo they may as well just have a buff like the Ninja's Kiss.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

If you could just have infinite ammo they may as well just have a buff like the Ninja's Kiss.

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She doesn't mean infinite ammo, she means the 5 charges of ammo you have not fading in 30 seconds.

You hit Aetherflow and you can sit on those 3 stacks from sunrise to sunset.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

She doesn't mean infinite ammo, she means the 5 charges of ammo you have not fading in 30 seconds.

You hit Aetherflow and you can sit on those 3 stacks from sunrise to sunset.

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I suppose. But if you could just sit on your ammo (which I guess would be helpful in some situations), by the time you used up all the ammo, the CD would be back up and you'd be able to get more ammo immediately.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

I suppose. But if you could just sit on your ammo (which I guess would be helpful in some situations), by the time you used up all the ammo, the CD would be back up and you'd be able to get more ammo immediately.

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You can already do this by quick reloading every 15 seconds. Most raiding machinists actually make their tanks wait before pulling until they can reload and have a second reload ready immediately after.

Spirits Within dealing damage in direct relation to your HP is actually how that ability also worked for PLD in FFXI, so they basically copied it in wholesale (and it should go without saying the name itself is a reference to the title of the FF movie, but that's another story). ;)

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

I suppose. But if you could just sit on your ammo (which I guess would be helpful in some situations), by the time you used up all the ammo, the CD would be back up and you'd be able to get more ammo immediately.

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You can do that with Aetherflows, pop it, then wait for the cd. Use your stacks and immediately gain 3 stacks. If ammo wasn't on a timer, I might actually play MCH.

With Quick Reload being on 15 seconds, ammo timer is hardly a real issue unless you're simply forgetting to use it, which already means you're playing subpar.

I do have to say though that I don't get why it's on a timer in the first place. Does the ammo just corrode or something if it's left in the gun too long?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

With Quick Reload being on 15 seconds, ammo timer is hardly a real issue unless you're simply forgetting to use it, which already means you're playing subpar.

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If I would raid as a MCH: Why I sould not go into the kitchen while everyone else is waiting till their cooldowns get ready?

The others can do this. And what has this to do with "subpar playing"?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I do have to say though that I don't get why it's on a timer in the first place. Does the ammo just corrode or something if it's left in the gun too long?

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Perhaps they're made of some bizarre alloy that has an insanely short half-life upon exposure to aether.

Who knows, lol. It's one of the things that bugs me about Machinist, though.

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The others can do this. And what has this to do with "subpar playing"?

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It means assuming you're using Quick Reload on at least a relatively timely basis whenever it's up, the duration of Ammunition Loaded should never get to expire in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It means assuming you're using Quick Reload on at least a relatively timely basis whenever it's up, the duration of Ammunition Loaded should never get to expire in the first place.

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So the fact that the Scholar can hit Aetherflow and then go grab a soda makes the Machinst a bad player?

I don't follow.

macros are your friend , when waiting for CDs btw pulls (raid)

/ac reload (5 charges 60s...enough to potion and other ppl cds )
<wait.25>
/ac quick reload
<wait.25>
/ac quick reload
....
until u cant anymore..... so press it once u go afk , and once u are back stop it.

it sucks? yeah ...but better than nothing :)

Looking for sound logic in a video game for the most part will leave you confused. Sometimes you just have to accept that ammo disappears. You can argue the balance behind it, but not the logic.

Not sure why it doesn't act like Aetherflow. Then again, you should be able to use up the ammo in a few seconds unless the boss becomes untargetable.

Anyways, it's just one of many problems the MCH has

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So the fact that the Scholar can hit Aetherflow and then go grab a soda makes the Machinst a bad player?

I don't follow.

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SCH has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion, so I don't know why you brought it up. But yes, a DPS not using their things that help them do more DPS means they are not playing effectively. I figured this would be obvious.

I sat and tried to think of a reason Ammunition needs to be this way and couldn't come up with anything. Considering MCH can already pre-load and maintain a full set of Ammunition via Quick Reload abuse, there's no real reason it needs to have a duration. I suspect the duration is a holdover from the original design in which Ammunition was a more involved system or something.

All in favor of this, it's a decent quality of life change (and would make those pre-pull setups for Raids slightly less cumbersome).

Spirits Within is just a legacy thing I guess. I don't know how much the potency scales based on HP but they could probably remove that aspect of it at this point.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

SCH has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion, so I don't know why you brought it up. But yes, a DPS not using their things that help them do more DPS means they are not playing effectively. I figured this would be obvious.

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I think you completely missed the point. They're discussing keeping it up before pulls, every other class can get go afk while waiting to get a drink or whatever, machinist can't. That's why it'd be nice for ammo to not expire.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

SCH has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion, so I don't know why you brought it up. But yes, a DPS not using their things that help them do more DPS means they are not playing effectively. I figured this would be obvious.

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I think you are confusing bad QoL with skill here.

I don't play mch, or smn, but as for them having different timers.. They do different things.. ?

MCH ammo is used to buff nearly every attack.

SMN/SCH Aetherflow is used only for specific abilities.

In a vacuum, if someone came up to you and said here's an ability that gives you stacks to buff every attack, and here's another ability that that gives you stacks which allow access to powerful special abilities. Would you assume off the bat that they would be managed the same way?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing here, if the timer on MCH ammo is really unimportant or doesn't really affect anything then it seems kinda pointless to have a timer on it. But fundamentally, I don't think the comparison to smn is equal.

As for spirits within, it doesn't really matter what the potency is, you're going to use it damn near everytime it's up. At least I do. Outside of using it off the bat at full HP it would seem like waiting for the right moment would be a larger damage loss than using it on demand at any potency.

Sorry. I couldn't find any good reasons :(

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I think you completely missed the point. They're discussing keeping it up before pulls, every other class can get go afk while waiting to get a drink or whatever, machinist can't. That's why it'd be nice for ammo to not expire.

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If you really want to get that technical, SCH can't just put up their Adlo/Succor shields and afk for a drink without them falling off, either. Shouldn't we demand something get done about that too?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If you really want to get that technical, SCH can't just put up their Adlo/Succor shields and afk for a drink without them falling off, either. Shouldn't we demand something get done about that too?

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SCH gets Protect and SS from CNJ, as of 3.0, protect/SS on SCH and AST have the same value as on WHM.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If you really want to get that technical, SCH can't just put up their Adlo/Succor shields and afk for a drink without them falling off, either. Shouldn't we demand something get done about that too?

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Adlo and Succor don't have a recast timer, either. Apples and oranges.

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SCH gets Protect and SS from CNJ, as of 3.0, protect/SS on SCH and AST have the same value as on WHM.

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Protect =/= Galvanize
Stoneskin =/= Galvanize

Your point?

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Adlo and Succor don't have a recast timer, either. Apples and oranges.

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Adlo can be replaced before it falls off, so can ammo. Your point?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Adlo can be replaced before it falls off, so can ammo. Your point?

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I'm starting to feel kind of like I'm just feeding a troll here but it's late and I'm bored so eh. Point being the SCH can simply spend a single GCD to recast Adlo, where the Machinist has to spend up to two minutes getting their ammo back for a proper opener.

TL;DR: The point is QoL and less wasted time.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Adlo can be replaced before it falls off, so can ammo. Your point?

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You need exactly one Adlo before the pull. MCH needs to build up a stack of ammo, which needs some time, as quickreload for 1 bullet has a cooldown timer of 15 secs. Also he must refresh it, because when it falls off, he starts building up them at 0 again.

And your point is?

I can see why they did it this way - it would be convenient if more types of charges stayed on permanently in general rather than being situational, but I think they were trying to make MCH more 'dynamic' and aggressive compared to say, a SCH, which was probably conceived as needing the charges available as a backup to complement reactive healing. However, that's not how the actual gameplay for both jobs actually works out at all, so suggesting the developers consider improving the way ammo works isn't a crazy idea. It's not as though MCHs are in any danger of being the most-played job in the game the way they are so why not make them slightly more accessible and fun?

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I sat and tried to think of a reason Ammunition needs to be this way and couldn't come up with anything. Considering MCH can already pre-load and maintain a full set of Ammunition via Quick Reload abuse, there's no real reason it needs to have a duration. I suspect the duration is a holdover from the original design in which Ammunition was a more involved system or something.

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Inb4: "3.2. A change in the MCH skill Quick reload has been adjusted to 40seconds cool down."

"Please look forward to it."

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

Inb4: "3.2. A change in the MCH skill Quick reload has been adjusted to 40seconds cool down."

"Please look forward to it."

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I certainly hope not! I'm guessing they didn't anticipate the use of Quick Reload to refresh Ammunition duration or they would have probably just removed the duration, but they've done stranger things, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

-Ammo doesn't last forever until used (unlike Aetherflow)
-Spirits Within's potency scales with HP

I can't. It wouldn't be game breaking for ammo to last like Aetherflow, or for Spirits Within to have 300 potency regardless of HP as far as I can imagine.

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This is probably a change incoming for spirit's within if I had to guess and I want to say the ammo thing doesn't actually harm the mch opener like it would harm a smn opener.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

With Quick Reload being on 15 seconds, ammo timer is hardly a real issue unless you're simply forgetting to use it, which already means you're playing subpar.

I do have to say though that I don't get why it's on a timer in the first place. Does the ammo just corrode or something if it's left in the gun too long?

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OMG! This. Hahahaha. I cannot understand why Chakra and Aetherflow lasts indefinitely while our bullets can only last 30 seconds.

Ammo is a little different than Aetherflow stacks given that for Summoner, the stacks are required in order to even use a lot of abilities. Summoner does have an expiration timer on Aethertrail stacks, however. I think those are a little more comparable given that Aethertrail and Ammo provide access to performance boosts (Dreadwyrm and Shot procs) while Aetherflow is required to even use Summoner abilities.

I guess it's similar to the ninja/dragoon situation. Ninja gets a skill to boost damage with 1 click whereas the Dragoon has to keep heavy thrust up themselves. I mean HT fits very nicely in my rotation so keeping it up isn't a problem but they may as well have the skill permanently up.

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Originally Posted by bigbaldwolf86

I guess it's similar to the ninja/dragoon situation. Ninja gets a skill to boost damage with 1 click whereas the Dragoon has to keep heavy thrust up themselves. I mean HT fits very nicely in my rotation so keeping it up isn't a problem but they may as well have the skill permanently up.

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You can't really use Ninja's Kiss abilities for comparison that way. They are more of a "stance" and the only difference is really the way that they affect Mug and Jugulate. If Ninja and Dragoon had the same damage output without a Kiss applied, then sure go ahead and compare them as NIN having an advantage. That isnt the case though. Personally I don't even know why they offer a damage buff since it is permanent once applied - that damage should just belong to Ninja by default without needing a stance.

A better comparison is Heavy Thrust and Huton as they both need to be refreshed consistently.

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You need exactly one Adlo before the pull. MCH needs to build up a stack of ammo, which needs some time, as quickreload for 1 bullet has a cooldown timer of 15 secs. Also he must refresh it, because when it falls off, he starts building up them at 0 again.

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MCH doesn't *need* to build up anything before a pull any more than the AST *needs* to get a AoE Balance ready.

If your complaint here is that it requires time before a pull to be in an optimal state, MCH is hardly the only job that suffers from this. MCH should at least be thankful that their reload skills don't employ an RNG factor.

Just make the skill like Aetherflow, if the machinists want it.
No timer and reduce the ammount of skills it can be used with.