What if Nocturnal Sect...

I always had this thought that, instead of shields, Noct Stance could apply a stackable buff that increases defense alongside the heals, but suddenly I thought something else:

What if, instead of the 5% heal buff, the Noct Sect would buff your cards in 5~10%?

This would make AST heal potency even with the other healers (nerfing what they have now, but not making them worse than the other healers), would improve buffing, and would make extending the buffs with TD and CO better than the Diurnal counterpart, wich already have a synergy with Diurnal's regen.

What you guys think? Any ideas to help improve Nocturnal?

I always thought of something like that too, where one of sects is strength in healing, and the other strength in buffing. Honestly i just want AST to have its own unique way in healing. Though i say this, what's better than Regen and Shields?

Nope, it's fine as it is, it doesn't need re-inventing. Cards also don't need another buff when they can be royal-roaded as you please. Astro is already unique as it is... Not saying "git gud", but after some practice I prefer it now to my WHM which I've played ever since v1. Of course it will need some twerking here and there, just like all jobs when more content comes and more play styles are added. But as it is now, it's ok. Don't try to change it into something different.

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Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

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I agree with you, though i never said it needed changing. Honestly the fact that it can change to regen or shields depending on the duty is already amazing.

Sorry but you can't deny that Nocturnal Stance is trash compared to SCH.

It was never intended to be like adlo. Why do you (people who always compare it to sch/whm) keep comparing it? It's a unique job, similar to its co-buddies, but different. I will actually dare to say it's superior to adlo since it's instant cast. Now go to the pvp forums and dare saying it's inferior to adlo >_>

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Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

It was never intended to be like adlo. Why do you (people who always compare it to sch/whm) keep comparing it? It's a unique job, similar to its co-buddies, but different. I will actually dare to say it's superior to adlo since it's instant cast. Now go to the pvp forums and dare saying it's inferior to adlo >_>

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The AST sects get compared to WHM/SCH since thats how the devs originally described AST as functioning and continued to describe it this way for quite some time. Community hears this, then community goes "omg its so bad compared to WHM/SCH" (silly sexy community).

OP, although your idea sounds good, what AST really needs now is time to prove itself in the new raid environment to those who just write the class off. Hopefully midas will show those naysayers what AST is capable of. I know i intend to be starting that raid cycle as an AST.

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

The AST sects get compared to WHM/SCH since thats how the devs originally described AST as functioning and continued to describe it this way for quite some time. Community hears this, then community goes "omg its so bad compared to WHM/SCH" (silly sexy community).

OP, although your idea sounds good, what AST really needs now is time to prove itself in the new raid environment to those who just write the class off. Hopefully midas will show those naysayers what AST is capable of. I know i intend to be starting that raid cycle as an AST.

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Calling it right now - even if AST is successful in Midas, there will (unfortunately) be naysayers that will then say "But Midas is nerfed compared to Gordias!"

...I really do hope AST can be successful in Midas and there won't be any rhetoric like the above >>; Time will tell.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Sorry but you can't deny that Nocturnal Stance is trash compared to SCH.

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You would be surprised...

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Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

It was never intended to be like adlo. Why do you (people who always compare it to sch/whm) keep comparing it? It's a unique job, similar to its co-buddies, but different. I will actually dare to say it's superior to adlo since it's instant cast. Now go to the pvp forums and dare saying it's inferior to adlo >_>

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No way is Noct sect better than a crit Adlo. That's crazy. The instant cast in nice, but a Crit adlo is flat out godly. I'd argue it borders on broken good.

That is exactly the issue, though. AST cannot replace SCH in progression because it's not as strong defensively (and other things, like damage and MP management, but that's beside the point), so they're only competing for the WHM slot. They must be compared. Non-progression in this game is extremely easy and can be slept through, so you probably wouldn't need Noct Stance anyway unless you're doing the ball eating in Alex 4, since WHM and AST regens stack.

Noct can also crit, and added that the aoe effect is the same potency unlike adlo+succor, yes, it can be superior. Not saying it always is, but it can be. I've crit'ed on the run (literally) a few nocts and I felt like a goddess. The only thing I would change about noct is to be stacked with adlo and a second noct. That, yes, definetly. But noct being trash and adlo being godly? Arguable.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

No way is Noct sect better than a crit Adlo. That's crazy. The instant cast in nice, but a Crit adlo is flat out godly. I'd argue it borders on broken good.

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I don't think comparing something with less than 20% chance against something guaranteed is the right way to do it

It's not about the shields, it's about SCH tools compared to Noc AST.

SCH has better MP management
SCH DPS is better than Noc AST because it has better MP management and the fairy.
SCH has more reliable mitigation tools and easier to use. Supervirus lasts longer and its better than Disable. Sacred Soil is easier to use than Collective Unconscious. Eye for Eye is much more reliable than Bole. Even if Noc AST shields are a bit better than SCH. When Adlo crits it's godly, and it can even be deployed.
SCH Has better emergency cooldowns thanks to Lustrate and Indomitability
Noc AST has better DPS buffs than SCH... Well... SCH has Selene and her haste... So it evens out, and it can be better Selene if AST is unlucky with RNG.
Noc AST has more reliable healing tools than SCH thanks to Helios and Benefic II, well SCH has a fairy and Emergency Tactics (and in 8 man content there are high chances a WHM or Diu AST will take care of the main healing)
Noc AST can restore MP and TP to other allies, true, it can't be denied (if you are lucky)
SCH has the fairy, that gives free healing non dependant of MP and it has it's own abilities. Eos offers AoE Magic Damage mitigation, AoE regen and AoE extra healing potency. Selene offers a Silence, and AoE esuna and an AoE Haste.

You can't compare SCH with Noc AST. SCH is OP, really OP terribly OP.

The issue I find that sets SCH apart the most is both its versatility and reliability. If you consider the fairies, Eos basically brings three WHM style moves, whereas Selene draws in some AST like buff moves. However the SCH can switch fairies in mid-battle for about 1700 mana, whereas the AST is locked into a Sect once battle begins. This lets the SCH pop regen and shields at the same time if needed, or haste and shields if not. Additionally fairy buffs are RELIABLE, even if they have lengthy cooldowns. And if you compare the versatility of Aetherize mana return to AST's LA/Ewer, you'll note the SCH usually has an easier time of keeping mana up unless they're spamming adloquiums.

AST buffs may be much stronger, but the very RNG nature of their draw is why I prefer the SCH. A SCH's RNG is entirely in hoping for that critical adlo, but if you fail to get that crit your regular shield is still typically good enough to deploy. But if you want that AoE Balance and all you draw are Spires and Spears? Well, it's like the world hates your face and everything you've ever looked at.

I see a lot of points, but with this thread I didn't like to compare AST to the other jobs. (I guess there's a lot of threads doing it already), but with themselves. Like:

What would make me choose Diurnal over Noct?
- 5% Spell Speed buff
- Regen effects
- More reliability, regens stack, more healing power(counting all ticks of Hots), synergy with TD, synergy with both other healers.
I couldn't go wrong with this.

What would make me choose Noct over Diurnal?
-5% healing buff
-Shields
-More instant healing, TD usable for cards only, shields overwrite, fighting SCH for shields
I see that you can't use it all the time and you can't use with every partner.

The big question is, What could make me choose Noct more often?

If I had better cards with Noct, maybe I wouldn't mind playing alongside SCH, shields may not stack, but the better buffs could make up for it without making Diurnal worse...

Do you think it could?

Today we have a majority of Diurnal ASTs on PVE, what could make you guys choose Noct more often? :)

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Sorry but you can't deny that Nocturnal Stance is trash compared to SCH.

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I don't think so. If I recall, the AST shields are stronger than a SCH's. Unless that SCH crits.

Well, there is actually about 0 reason to ever play in Noct if paired with a SCH. If paired with another AST, only one should ever be Noct, and if with a WHM you can be whichever sect you want as Diurnal regens still stack, so it's up to you.

Honestly without being able to stack, Noct shields lose a lot of capability.

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Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

Noct can also crit, and added that the aoe effect is the same potency unlike adlo+succor, yes, it can be superior. Not saying it always is, but it can be. I've crit'ed on the run (literally) a few nocts and I felt like a goddess. The only thing I would change about noct is to be stacked with adlo and a second noct. That, yes, definetly. But noct being trash and adlo being godly? Arguable.

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The problem is that Noct doesn't get the x2 multiplier on its shields crit like SCH's do.
Having said that, Noct will always grant a shield that is x1.3 the amount it healed.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

The problem is that Noct doesn't get the x2 multiplier on its shields crit like SCH's do.
Having said that, Noct will always grant a shield that is x1.3 the amount it healed.

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I wouldn't call this a problem because this is not something you will be relying on for content that matters. Consistency beats RNG for progression.

I'm not saying that AST has a better mitigation kit than SCH (it does not) because only mentioning Adlo vs. NAB while completely ignoring raidwide mitigation would be silly. In fact Nocturnal Aspected Benefic vs Adloquium is the closest thing we have to balance between both jobs, with both spells having unique avantages and flavor while essentially doing the same thing. I'd like more things like that.

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Originally Posted by Roxas_Andrade

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The only thing nocturnal handles well is predictable spike damage, like the 3 lasers or 3 balls in a4 where you can insta cast shield on who is going to eat it. Diurnal has internal synergy with stacking regens and regen time extensions. As it stands the problem with nocturnal is that most fights don't have mechanics that it is ideal for handling, while diurnal is much better at handling the types of damage normally encountered (focused tank healing, and aoe regen for the people who don't avoid the puddles/aoe).

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

I don't think so. If I recall, the AST shields are stronger than a SCH's. Unless that SCH crits.

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And you ignore the important things like DPS, MP management, instant heals, FAIRY, even SCH mitigation is more reliable than AST one.

Comparisons between Noct AST and SCH are inevitable since it's obvious 2.0 SCH was used as a base reference when creating the Sect. Same way with Diurnal and WHM, but the latter plays more to AST's strengths and overall toolkit better.

I mentioned in another thread how Noct could be changed to be a reversal of Emergency Tactics. Imagine if ET was an actual stance SCH was locked into for a whole fight, and that's how I see Nocturnal. An ability that would work well in situational circumstances but not as an 'always on' move that fits as part of the job's overall package (since the other jobs do that role better)

Another type of healing could be reactive. Thus that when you got hit, you were healed by an amount. This would allow you to have a reactive barrier that functions quite differently than white mage or scholar. On lots of mobs, it would work well, against fewer mobs it would work less, but it would also give you a very distinctive flavor. Other mmo's have used this healing method and it works pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Roxas_Andrade

Today we have a majority of Diurnal ASTs on PVE, what could make you guys choose Noct more often? :)

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I haven't unlocked the job yet, but maybe if Noct stance couldn't draw the same card twice in a row then people would use it more?

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Originally Posted by Ragology

I haven't unlocked the job yet, but maybe if Noct stance couldn't draw the same card twice in a row then people would use it more?

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The problem is that one card is always good, and the rest are (at best) situationally useful. They honestly need to go back to the drawing board with the card effects because what they developed is crap.

The problem is that if the current design meta of 'Toss large amounts of AoE with low enough movement and enough clustering that AoE healing will take care of it', together with 'toss mediocre amounts of individual/spot damage that only one healer has to be busy fulltime at most and another healer only has to throw super-efficient heals' makes SCH's strengths stand out tremendously as an offhealer compared to Nocturnal AST.

Aetherflow is already competitive with Shroud + Assize and Luminiferous + Celestial. Another thing often forgotten is that you start with 3 stacks too, and that extra mana can swing things pretty nicely.
Energy Drain is a huge boon if you don't need the healing. It is way harder to convert abilities like Collective, Assize, Asylum into mana-efficiency than it is to press a button and get MP back. And then we're ignoring the free damage that comes with it.
Even if you don't use Energy Drain, the abilities are ridiculously efficient anyway when compared to their spell-counterparts (think Succor/Adlo/Physick vs Indom/Lustrate).
Nocturnal AST has no answer to the fairy besides manually healing. Even if you slot in a Diurnal AST/WHM instead, you'd still need to spend mana on Aspected Benefic/Regen to replicate the effect (to a lesser degree at that) while the SCH is pushing tons of free healing while.. doing absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing? Absolutely nothing.
SCH has more, usually competitive, on-demand abilities compared to Nocturnal AST that are very comfortable to use too, on top of abilities AST can't access or are locked behind RNG to produce a sub-par effect (AoE bole vs Fey Covenant as biggest offender, no answer to Deployment Tactics as examples).
Definitely has a lot more 'cleave' damage that is very cheap to use (Bane). Rub Aero 3 and Assize all you want, but Bane's absolutely crazy if you are allowed to let it tick.

I like Nocturnal AST, but it is very unrealistic to think WHM + N.AST will be a staple if Midas content is still based around pushing numbers, regardless of where. Giving up such a huge comfort and benefits while SE has already shown their designs usually don't change around (huge AoE damage/predictable tank buster/no-cast cleave(semi-buster)/low critical movement/high amounts of clustering) is pretty crazy.

If you want to see N.AST be really competitive, either pray Midas is a blow-out numbers-wise to the point the instant shield is a giant boon, or pray Midas will have a lot of spothealing/separation and very little clustering while tossing enough damage to keep both healers occupied. Or there are actually meaningful changes.

I just want noct sect to increase all spells by 5% potency, so i can dps more when with a WHM

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Originally Posted by SWB

I just want noct sect to increase all spells by 5% potency, so i can dps more when with a WHM

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I kind of want this so it can compete with Diurnal's 5% attack speed boost.

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Originally Posted by SWB

I just want noct sect to increase all spells by 5% potency, so i can dps more when with a WHM

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Now this I could totally get behind. AST have sub-par DPS compared to the other healers as it is, and since Noct is the "SCH" stance, and SCH is pretty much a "pseudo-DPS" type healer (and even if you don't want to call it that, you can't deny its insane DPS capabilities for being a HEALER class), I feel like it would make sense to tack something like that onto Noct Sect.

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Originally Posted by Roxas_Andrade

I always had this thought that, instead of shields, Noct Stance could apply a stackable buff that increases defense alongside the heals, but suddenly I thought something else:

What if, instead of the 5% heal buff, the Noct Sect would buff your cards in 5~10%?

This would make AST heal potency even with the other healers (nerfing what they have now, but not making them worse than the other healers), would improve buffing, and would make extending the buffs with TD and CO better than the Diurnal counterpart that already have a synergy with Diurnal's regen.

What you guys think? Any ideas to help improve Nocturnal?

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I like both of these ideas, though I also think it doesn't necessarily NEED reworking. I was a little disappointed that Noct was just shields... Was kind hoping for something different that hadn't been done with the other two yet. We got that in cards to an extent, wish they would have elaborated with that.

The thing that kills me about Nocturnal Sect is when we compare it to Diurnal Sect.

Diurnal: Aspected Benefic and Aspected Helios stack / Nocturnal: They do not stack

Diurnal: HoTs from Aspected Benefic, Helios, and Wheel of Fortune are extended by Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition / Nocturnal: While the shields can be extended, they break once enough damage has been taken and means buff extension is almost completely pointless beyond the cards.

My suggestion:
Change the way Aspected Benefic and Helios work under Nocturnal Sect. Casting Aspected Benefic and Helios Apply a shield for 100% of the HP initially healed. These stack with each other, but not with Galvanize. The buff applied by the shield does not go away even if the shield is broken, instead it applies smaller shields equal to 5% of the HP initially healed every tic (the same way a HoT works). These smaller shields add together. Recasting Aspected Benefic and Helios override the smaller shields and resets the process.

I think people need to stop trying to give ASTs 2 healing stances and instead ask for a healing stance (diurnal) and a support stance (nocturnal.) Both of these stances should be accessible during a fight, but lock each other out with their current cool downs.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

One thing for AST i would like to see is the ability to switch sects mid fight. The only balance issue would be the insane regens on top of instant cast shield. A fix would be to have your own aspected spells override your previous ones.

>>>>>>OR<<<<<<<

Another thing that could be done specifically to nocturnal is to increase the duration of all buffs by another multiplier, only while casting abilities like time dilation or celestial opposition. (Therefore cards and Wheel of Fortune act the same without the above skills)

Ex diurnal sect: cast bole for 30 seconds then celestial opposition it to 35
In nocturnal sect:cast bole for 30 seconds then celestial opposition it to 40.

This would shift the pressure of asts needing to be a dps clone of sch to a more true "support" in their nocturnal stance, thus increasing dps or damaging mitigation.

Just a thought. Everyone understands that time dilation and celestial opposition have poor synergy with nocts aspected spells.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

I think people need to stop trying to give ASTs 2 healing stances and instead ask for a healing stance (diurnal) and a support stance (nocturnal.) Both of these stances should be accessible during a fight, but lock each other out with their current cool downs.

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We aren't trying to, they already have two healing stances.
And I'm sorry to say this but there will always be pressure to healers to DPS, buffing people isn't going to replace that.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

We aren't trying to, they already have two healing stances.
And I'm sorry to say this but there will always be pressure to healers to DPS, buffing people isn't going to replace that.

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Scholars fufill almost all of their DPS contribution DPSING, along with Fey Wind. AST's give the most with their cards. What I'm saying is, Diurnal Sect is the powerhouse healing stance that AST possesses. Nocturnal should be their less heals needed, but more buffing potential. Just as SCH can go Eos to boost their healing but go Selene to boost their Support. Shields DO NOT heal as effectively as Regens. They will never truly compete alone, thats why SCH have fairies and access to OGCD instant cast abilities.

TLDR:

Offer AST a way to switch stances mid fight, so they can increase DPS, but not suffer as a healer, while buffing cards in Nocturnal stance, at least with Celestial Opposition and Time Dilation.

Nocturnal stance Prepull. Balance with Royal Road Spread saved.
Aspected Helios party to shield.
Spread Balance and Celestial Opposition with bonus time from nocturnal.
Time Dilate strongest DPS.
(Pull has happened, Tank has lost his shield)
Switch to Diurnal to Cast DoTs and regen tank.

AST's continue to be their own DPS, but have a stance that they can actively switch to, to Buff their cards and shield.

Hmm i think they should turn noctunal sect into AST dps stance which enhance cards and damage spells

Aspected benefic (new)
Places a shield on the target when destroyed heals the target over time

Aspected helios (new)
Places a shield on all allies within range, when the shield is destroyed it heals the target overtime

What this does is combine Diurnal and nocturnal together but to do this would need change potency and remove the initial heal as we already got helios, benefic 1 and 2 for healing this will also makes us strong due to lack of cooldowns and fairy , astrologian have far to much to keep track of in raids compare to the other 2 healers due to the card mechanics for example u waiting for mech to go into his burst attack to throw spear on him

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This will also fix issues nocturnal have with the following skills

Celestrial oppostition
Time dialation

I agree diurnal ast is strong and is soo in sync with to extend hots and cards all at once but it also made me question if AST should be the pure HoT healer whilst leaving WHM as burst and SCH for mitigation...

I mean with AST toolkit u can turn it into a healer which heals players over time i mean we got skills to extend buffs and HoTs on targets also i feel AST should be rocking with spell speed

Scholar favour crit due to shields
Whm favour Det+spell speed due to strong heals
Ast favour spell speed for fast heals and better hots and dots?

This is how i feel about the class i mean as AST we stacking synastry + aspected benefic+ aspected helios + collective concious for a 3-4k hot and extending it with time dialation so why not focus on this type of play style for astrolgian in future

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

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I mean with AST toolkit u can turn it into a healer which heals players over time i mean we got skills to extend buffs and HoTs on targets also i feel AST should be rocking with spell speed

Scholar favour crit due to shields
Whm favour Det+spell speed due to strong heals
Ast favour spell speed for fast heals and better hots and dots?

This is how i feel about the class i mean as AST we stacking synastry + aspected benefic+ aspected helios + collective concious for a 3-4k hot and extending it with time dialation so why not focus on this type of play style for astrolgian in future

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Hots did not work well for druids in wow until that super hot came out that ticked every second. The raids are centered around so much burst and fast recover I do not think it would work unless the new raid in Feb has different mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Hots did not work well for druids in wow until that super hot came out that ticked every second. The raids are centered around so much burst and fast recover I do not think it would work unless the new raid in Feb has different mechanics.

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Yeah but we can change lightspeed to convert our hots into a burst heal which also removes the hot on the target

There are clever ways to do it and i think it be awsome

But truthfully i just want to step far far far away from being called a WHM or SCH... Its annoying makes me want to smack people with my star globe D:

I do not want to see the Astrologian turn into the SE version of a wow restore druid. Nocturnal being pushed to be a more offensive stance that does not hurt the healing strength of the astro imo would be a more viable method. SE is not looking to totally redo an entire job toolkit at this stage of the game. Either find ways to make the stance work with only tweaks or wait til 4.0 most likely. I saw lots of raids in 2.0 Coils and extremes make use of double white mage quite well. Barely anyone used double scholar but no one complained to much about not being able to pair two scholars. Should not be a problem with scholar being almost irreplaceable for the time being to make up for being screwed over in 2.0.