Thoughts on why DRK feels off at times

I have been a DRK main since 3.0 released, and there has been something bothering me about this job. Coming from WAR (which imo feels perfect right now), I have been taking note of what I think is making me feel this way.

I don't mean to start another "fix this or that class" debate, but just wish to share my thoughts about what could be done to make it feel smoother overall. A quick note, I will be comparing DRK to WAR at times, since I feel like they really hit the nail on the head with WAR.

1) Reprisal isn't reliable as MT and useless as OT. Warrior gets a straight up 10% damage debuff built into a combo, meaning they can apply it whenever they wish. Of course, I understand they shouldn't just copy paste abilities or things will feel too much the same. In this case, I would make Reprisal not require a parry proc and instead be an oGCD ability (as it currently is) with a 20 second cooldown. The reason for this, is that you can only apply it to a single enemy at a time(whereas WAR can apply it to multiple), but it keeps the benefit of being oGCD with extra damage.

2) Change Dark Dance's DA buff to give you TP back instead of evasion. A simple switch that would make a huge difference. It doesn't need to be a large amount of TP, just enough to keep you going (similar to how WAR can gain TP). In this case, it varies in the sense that you must sacrifice MP to do so.

3) Swap Delirium and Souleater's potency. The reason for this one is to make your main damage combo more useful. Instead of just constantly re-applying the INT debuff (and clipping it), you could be gaining a small amount of self healing. I'm aware that Warrior also has the issue of having a higher potency debuff combo, but this would solidify DRK as the self healing tank. If nothing else, simply swapping the potency when turning Grit on would add self healing for MT while still keeping Delirium the higher combo when OT.

Anyway, what do you guys think? These are just my thoughts of what feels off, and I fully realize that they likely won't be put into effect. Just fun thoughts of what could be done, and would love to hear if anyone else feels like PLD and DRK just don't feel like they quite match up with WAR right now. Again, not trying to whine or complain about DRK, just hoping to see PLD and DRK be buffed up a little bit to be more on par with WAR.

The only thing I'm on board for is the TP refresh. Screw the evasion crap.

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Originally Posted by Litegrace

1) Reprisal isn't reliable as MT and useless as OT. Warrior gets a straight up 10% damage debuff built into a combo, meaning they can apply it whenever they wish. Of course, I understand they shouldn't just copy paste abilities or things will feel too much the same. In this case, I would make Reprisal not require a parry proc and instead be an oGCD ability (as it currently is) with a 20 second cooldown. The reason for this, is that you can only apply it to a single enemy at a time(whereas WAR can apply it to multiple), but it keeps the benefit of being oGCD with extra damage.

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Storm's Path sees very little uptime on WAR since they only use it when absolutely necessary. You're actually seeing more returns on Reprisal since its on the boss literally every time you get a proc. DRK doesn't have 100% uptime on Reprisal because then they would have a Dragon Kick and Storm's Path clone that both stack with Storm's Path itself and have 100% uptime. Its a balancing act. Its also a DPS gain for the DRK to keep DE and RE up, whereas WAR has to make a sacrifice. You can also guide when the proc is available with DD usage, popping DD 15-20 seconds before a TB or raid-wide nuke to be sure the mitigation is there when needed. In practice, it really doesn't function much differently than Storm's Path at all, and with planning, it has the same availability. The only issue is with fights that are largely magic based where you can't Parry, and in that case, DRK is still pulling its weight just by bringing DE and its insane magic mitigation cooldowns. Also, as far as OTing, there is almost no fight in the game right now that is relevant where there are not adds to pick up and get RE procs from. The only way this is an issue is in a fight where there are no adds or any extremely small number of or very weak adds, in which case people are going to try to solo tank it all together, which is even better for DRK as it is the ideal MT at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Litegrace

2) Change Dark Dance's DA buff to give you TP back instead of evasion. A simple switch that would make a huge difference. It doesn't need to be a large amount of TP, just enough to keep you going (similar to how WAR can gain TP). In this case, it varies in the sense that you must sacrifice MP to do so.

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The evasion boost is incredibly useful in 4-man content. Pop it with DA DP and you dodge a LOT. All you have to do is be smart enough to not use it with Blood Price up.

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Originally Posted by Litegrace

3) Swap Delirium and Souleater's potency. The reason for this one is to make your main damage combo more useful. Instead of just constantly re-applying the INT debuff (and clipping it), you could be gaining a small amount of self healing. I'm aware that Warrior also has the issue of having a higher potency debuff combo, but this would solidify DRK as the self healing tank. If nothing else, simply swapping the potency when turning Grit on would add self healing for MT while still keeping Delirium the higher combo when OT.

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So you want to basically just spam Souleater over and over and over? Souleater hits crazy hard, that's enough to make it useful on its own, and Delirium is the second highest potency of your combos and applied INT% down and restores MP. They're both incredibly useful. Anyway, the self-healing from Grit is rarely utilized anyway, as the best DRK's turn Grit off on boss fights completely after getting aggro, and then never turn it back on unless they are strapped for cooldowns. Also if you don't want to clip DE then don't. Use an extra DASE instead, if there's no raidwide magic damage incoming. Too many DRK's are afraid to let DE fall. You can let it fall off and be no worse for the wear. In fact if there's a MNK in the party, I just spam DASE until I actually NEED MP to use DE. None of this would solidify DRK as the self-healing tank either, because Equilibrium/Thrill of Battle/Second Wind on WAR are just retarded (You can Holmgang something and then, if Berserk is up, almost completely heal yourself back up with no healer input. Broken.)

I've always stood by the fact that DRK is the well balanced tank, as just like every other non-tank in the game, it has distinctive pros and cons. IMO, PLD and WAR are the ones that are unbalanced. PLD is incredibly weak right now, and WAR feels balanced like the hand cannon in Dead Space feels balanced. People can't tell the difference between well-designed and overpowered, and think because a job has literally no consequential weaknesses that that should be the standard, whereas I look to the rest of the jobs in the game, healers, DPS, melee/casters etc. to see the standard, and they all excel in a few areas and are less than ideal in others. Honestly, if you like WAR better, that's the job you should main, IMO. But I think if you push DRK to the limit you'll find that none of these things really hold it back or hold water in practice.

Oh, and yeah, a TP refresh would be cool, but as I'm one of those DRK's that avoids Grit like the plague, it takes me a long time to TP floor, and so far the only fight where that has been a real issue is A4. So I barely worry about it/consider it a big issue.

Reprisal vs. Path is not a good comparison and, based on logic and reason, should not lead to the adjustment you suggested.

Path's effect is a combo'd bonus. Path costs a GCD. Path is a DPS loss to apply. Those are the downsides that make it balanced.

Changing Reprisal to an unconditional-oGCD with 100% up-time with no added downside is stupid. You already can't apply it to multiple enemies. And, unless you are letting Eye drop, a WAR can't apply Path to multiple targets either.

As for TP issues, it doesn't require this drastic a change. DA DD is useful in dungeons and even in some raid situations. TP issues can easily be resolved just by reducing the TP cost of rotation GCDs like lowering Scourge from 60 to 50.

Does the 20% Evasion on Dark Dance increase your evasion BY 20%, or does it add 20% to whatever your existing Evasion chance is? If it's the latter, then it's sorta useful in that you dodge upwards of 20% of incoming auto attacks. if it's the former, then your base evasion rate is like 5% anyway, which makes it 6% with Dark Dance...besides I don't think high end raid bosses ever miss anyway.


As far as restoring TP...they could add an ability in the future that does this, but at a price perhaps. Make it cost 50% of your max MP to restore 300 TP or something.

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3) Swap Delirium and Souleater's potency. The reason for this one is to make your main damage combo more useful. Instead of just constantly re-applying the INT debuff (and clipping it), you could be gaining a small amount of self healing. I'm aware that Warrior also has the issue of having a higher potency debuff combo, but this would solidify DRK as the self healing tank. If nothing else, simply swapping the potency when turning Grit on would add self healing for MT while still keeping Delirium the higher combo when OT.

Anyway, what do you guys think? These are just my thoughts of what feels off, and I fully realize that they likely won't be put into effect. Just fun thoughts of what could be done, and would love to hear if anyone else feels like PLD and DRK just don't feel like they quite match up with WAR right now. Again, not trying to whine or complain about DRK, just hoping to see PLD and DRK be buffed up a little bit to be more on par with WAR.

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Aren't DRKs using DA for Souleater like 90% of the time anyway? I only use Delirium to keep the debuff on, but most of my combos are Souleater combos anyway unless I'm low on MP which is not the majority of time.


I think they need to start adding Piety to mainhand DRK weapons as a bonus stat. It's not like PLD which only uses a bit of MP here and there. We use a TON of MP, and having an extra 90-100 Piety on all of our i200+ weapons should be a thing. As our ilvl increases, we never get more MP, and there's no bonus Piety on any of our armor. Having more Piety means more Dark Arts and more DPS. I wouldn't mind having an extra 300-400MP.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Does the 20% Evasion on Dark Dance increase your evasion BY 20%, or does it add 20% to whatever your existing Evasion chance is? If it's the latter, then it's sorta useful in that you dodge upwards of 20% of incoming auto attacks. if it's the former, then your base evasion rate is like 5% anyway, which makes it 6% with Dark Dance...besides I don't think high end raid bosses ever miss anyway.

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There is no "base evasion rate" per se as it scales against the discrepancy in lvl/ilvl between you and what's hitting you. I am almost positive the boosts from DADD are additive as otherwise the cooldown would be almost unnoticeable, and most certainly is noticeable. Go into a dungeon and pull 8-10 mobs, pop DADD and you'll see what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

As far as restoring TP...they could add an ability in the future that does this, but at a price perhaps. Make it cost 50% of your max MP to restore 300 TP or something.

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Aw hell no.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I think they need to start adding Piety to mainhand DRK weapons as a bonus stat. It's not like PLD which only uses a bit of MP here and there. We use a TON of MP, and having an extra 90-100 Piety on all of our i200+ weapons should be a thing. As our ilvl increases, we never get more MP, and there's no bonus Piety on any of our armor. Having more Piety means more Dark Arts and more DPS. I wouldn't mind having an extra 300-400MP.

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This doesn't work because the MP costs/returns of your abilities do not scale with your Piety stat but with your lvl. If they do, then it takes an ungodly amount to make a difference, and costs will zero-out any benefit (DS will tick you for more, DA will cost more, etc.), and otherwise, you'll have the same problem with MP that full VIT tanks have with HP, in that it takes more to heal yourself back up. TL;DR - Piety is garbage on DRK and putting 100 or even 200 of it on our Weapon alone would make a completely negligible difference because of the way we consume/recover MP. Its like giving Piety to BLM - very similar concept.

We do use a TON of MP, and we also get back a TON of MP, very easily.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

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It's very much an additive boost. As Syzygian said, if you need proof, go piss off a horde of dragons and use the enhanced version of Dark Dance, it's even better against targets that can be blinded. As for raid bosses missing, it's something of a strange situation at the moment. Some raid bosses I have, through fat fingering, seen miss their basic attacks, notably the Oppressors, the Engineers (A2S), and Liquid Limb (I can't say about Living Liquid himself). Also, every boss in the Void Ark can miss, it's hilarious against Echidna to watch her charge up Sickle Strike and then... wiff it. If anything, its worth experimenting, raid bosses certainly have much higher accuracy, but they seem to miss on occasion if you severely boost your evasion.

As a fan of tanks I feel bad for the DRK. I feel like they're dps with heavy armor. I kind of feel for this class once a powerful mob shows up due to the lack of defensive cd. I took a lot of heat from a lot players by saying this but it's true. As of now WAR is complete. Hide behind Innerbeast and keep the storm debuff you will be fine. On the bright side DRK is definitely the more entertaining class out of the three. Diving on faces, kicking enemies in the nuts, three AoE attacks, dark arts to increase damage as long as you manage mp. They're monsters for the most part. Just not the best mitigation besides killing.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

I kind of feel for this class once a powerful mob shows up due to the lack of defensive cd.

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No accounting for the hoards of DRKs Gritlessly MTing raids with their lack of defensive CDs.

My biggest gripe with Dark Knightis that their primary debuff, Delirium, is objectively useless in 95% of content, and of the remaining 5%, it's only valid 1/5th of the time, excluding when you have q monk in your party. Why am I using Delirium when it's not gonna do anything? Why not swap Delirium and Souleater potencies so it doesn't feel like we're forced to use the DRK equivalent of Failone when it has no benefit from the debuff, due to either no magic attacks, or a mnk keeping up DK?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

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95%. 5%. 1/5th of the time? Where are these numbers coming from?

With some rare exceptions, almost all raidwide damage is magical. Delirium mitigates that. There's not a single relevant fight in the game right now that has no magical damage except for A2S where DRK pulls its weight in AoE DPS alone.

The whole DRK is useless b/c MNK exists is a very poor argument. Most people that actually care about clearing content also care about optimal party composition, so 9/10 in a fight that matters, they won't be in the same static.

If I meet a MNK in the DF, and if any DRK does, for that matter, take advantage of it. Let them worry about the -INT, drop Grit and rotate CDs, enjoy Blood Price and Blood Weapon combined and spam DA Souleater for even better DPS, only ever using Delirium when you get really low on MP. This is what I do and it works, you do a crapton of damage. Win-Win.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

95%. 5%. 1/5th of the time? Where are these numbers coming from?

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95% of the content has no magic attacks to take advantage of int down.

Of the remaining 5%, it's functionally pointless to touch Delirium because you'll get teamed up with a monk 20%of that remaining 5%. Delirium is for some idiotic reason also the hardest hitting combo without Dark Arts, which only serves to highlight the int down's uselessness.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

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http://mylolface.com/assets/faces/misc-seriously.jpg

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

There's not a single relevant fight in the game right now that has no magical damage except for A2S where DRK pulls its weight in AoE DPS alone.

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Jagged Doll Cleaves are magic damage. Apoth mitigates it.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

95% of the content has no magic attacks to take advantage of int down.

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Also, are you drunk?

I played DRK to 50 then stopped. I would play it if Darkside just stopped mana regen instead of draining mana every second but can't have everything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Honestly once you hit level 60 Darkside isn't that hard to manage. You end up using siphon strike alot since you only need 1-2 enmity combos on average.

Pretty much, once I got used to keeping Darkside going, about the only time the MP degeneration became a problem was when I got too trigger-happy with Dark Arts.
Though it WOULD be nice if my out-of-combat MP regeneration stayed normal even with DS up >.>

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

95% of the content has no magic attacks to take advantage of int down.

Of the remaining 5%, it's functionally pointless to touch Delirium because you'll get teamed up with a monk 20%of that remaining 5%. Delirium is for some idiotic reason also the hardest hitting combo without Dark Arts, which only serves to highlight the int down's uselessness.

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eh... really? then dark mind is useless too.. cause all damage is 95% physical right? (5% magic damage according to what u say?) lol

Dark knights are in a great position regarding magic dmg:

AS1 Hyper Compressed Plasma magic dmg, AS2 Jagged Doll cleaves magic + Bombs if you get hit, AS3 a TON of magic dmg you can mitigate Sluice and Cascade, AS4 Discoids (long lasting hard hitting TBs), Sohm Al 2nd and 3rd bosses, the Vault final boss, 1st boss holiest of the holy, The Aery first and last boss lightning and fire/adds with magic based, Thordan EX Lightning, Dragons rage, Ancient Quaga, KoTR casters and holiest of the holies, Gubal Library 1st and last boss (Thrub is magical iirc) Dusk Vigil last boss and second boss, Void Ark all the bosses, and all the hard mode dungeons including 60 roulette as they all have magic dmg bosses + trash.

If you don't have a monk use Delirium with Dark Mind and laugh all the magical attacks off they're honestly in such a good position it made Pld mains go Drk so don't claim 95% of all content has no value to Drks magical defenses. Also as stated if you're low on MP using Delirium is the next potent attack besides a DA+SE combo as it's 280 potency so again it's not useless as you claim.

Edit: Forgot to include Bismarck EX as it has mobs and environments that deal magic dmg as well, as for Rav EX i'm not 100% on that what's magical but I know Supranaka is affected by Delirium and Dark Mind if here's anything else anyone wants to contribute that I forgot (which I probably did) add onto it.

Everything in as1 besides autos and prey is magic. Even the gunnery pods.

AS2 has one magic attack and it will kill you anyway, just avoid the aoe.

AS3 has tons, from the tethers to cascade.

As4 again has tons.

Thordan has a little but that little could use some mitigating.

Drk is in a good place.

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Originally Posted by Carstien

Drk is in a good place.

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I feels like that because the game had to use magic monsters for drk to atleast be played. This 3.0 is the birth the debut for them they have to sit well. Overall no haha it's a lot of hard work and involves great skills and knowledge of fights. I'm not mad at their offensive skills at all. I think it's nice with them. They team up with BLM and other int base class well. My concern their mitigation sucks and this suppose to be a tank. Only thing they have really working for them is dark mind is really a 50 sec cd if you count the first 10 being active. Their mitigation are only good for up incoming big attack. No sustainable cd...same problem WAR had in 2.0 series. Content switch to dps and magic so yeah drk looking well but for all content no. But I'm not mad at it, SE gave us the choice to run all 3 tanks...sure someone favorite will be left out but you as the player won't be left out kind of why I'm not mad about it.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

I'm not mad I'm not mad about it.

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No one is saying you're mad, we're saying you're wrong. DRK's CD structure is almost identical to PLD which people like to hail as the "tankiest tank". SE went out of their way to make an extremely physical fight with light DPS checks (the opposite of what people consider DRK good at) in Thordan Ex and DRKs were MTing it week 1. Its cooldowns are all 60-90s with the exception of Shadow Wall. That's pretty sustainable. A2S - another example of a fight with almost no magical damage where DRK functions just fine.

The mere fact that DRK MTs out of tank stance so much is a testament to the fact that they have good, sustainable mitigation.

Or they're being babied by the healers with extra heals to cover for their lack of mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Or they're being babied by the healers with extra heals to cover for their lack of mitigation.

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I feel this is fairly accurate when it comes to high physical damage in fights. But since DRK puts out high DPS it's a fair trade off.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

My concern their mitigation sucks and this suppose to be a tank. Only thing they have really working for them is dark mind is really a 50 sec cd if you count the first 10 being active. Their mitigation are only good for up incoming big attack. No sustainable cd...same problem WAR had in 2.0 series.

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I don't know why I'm bothering, maybe because I'm just tired of it after six months, but allow me to enlighten you, my Warrior acquaintance.

Dark Mind, to start off with, is a 60 second cooldown whose duration doesn't really matter because as it stands, damage is predictable. Even if you are using it on the rare trash pull that is primarily composed of mages, your healer likely won't notice because if you're a good Dark Knight, and I hope most of the people who post here are, you will be healing yourself for more through Abyssal Drain than you would ever prevent by using an enhanced Dark Mind.

Secondly, about the mitigation skills for my Job. While it is true that Dark Knights have a slightly reduced potency on their major defensive cooldown as compared to Paladins, and that our cross-classes from Paladins are weakened from missing their traits, we do have means of compensating for these pitfalls. Perhaps the largest advantage, and one that mustn't be ignored, is a Dark Knight's raw damage output. While it is true that we deal considerably less damage than a Warrior, our true strength isn't when we are tanking single enemies, it is our raw multi-target damage that makes us threatening, which is an area that Paladin is extremely weak in. This of course allows us to kill things more quickly, and by extension, prevent damage from ever happening in the first place. Additionally, while Paladins have better cooldowns in Awareness, Convalescence, and Sentinel; their Bulwark, Shield Swipe, and Shield Bash abilities are either weaker than what Dark Knights have, or come at a high cost. Bulwark may be able to be more reliable, but Dark Dance is more powerful over time.

Finally, only Warriors has a "sustainable" cooldown in the form of Inner Beast. Both Paladins and Dark Knights eventually have dry spots where they lose their durability for a brief period, especially if they're burning through cooldowns rapidly. Dark Knights, however, are no where near the poor state that Warriors were in at the beginning of a Realm Reborn, we have the tools we need to do what we need to do. We aren't getting one-shot by tank busters, we aren't relying on just self-healing and raw HP, and we certainly aren't in need of being boosted like Warriors needed, and even then, there are many who suspect that Warrior may not have needed to be boosted to begin with.

Power slash + dark arts should have been a slashing debuff.

All that extra threat isn't needed.

I think there should be an ability or trait that resets and allow activation of Reprisal immediately upon a successful Parry, similar to how a crit from BRD's "bites" can reset Bloodletter/Rain of Death.

As for Delirium, make it where it's potency is swapped with Souleater's potency when you're OT/off Grit.

The only things I don't really like are.

Living Dead - Too many times have healers just panic healed me before I've even seen 2 seconds of walking dead, or just not healed me enough to make me not die.

Blood Weapon - I don't like that I can't use this move with Grit on, it devalues the tank stance a little for me.

Reprisal - The weakness of this move in fully magical encounters and the fact that you must be hit and parry to proc it irks me a little. I'd rather see an alternative activation or something, I don't know but I don't like having damaging , or utility based moves I can't use as an OT.

Delirium - If I have a Monk this move is just the end of the I need MP combo. I'd rather see it become identical to dragon kick or have a different effect altogether

Dark Arts Power Slash - I feel like this isn't really all that great for the combo tree and dark arts effect. I'd rather see Dark arts give a different buff/debuff to this skill then a bit more enmity.


The job plays well but some things either don't have the best synergy with OTing or feel a little odd sometimes.

This is all personal preference though. Aside from a lack of off tank utility the job is pretty solid.