Thoughts on why DRK feels off at times

[Litegrace]

I have been a DRK main since 3.0 released, and there has been something bothering me about this job. Coming from WAR (which imo feels perfect right now), I have been taking note of what I think is making me feel this way.

I don't mean to start another "fix this or that class" debate, but just wish to share my thoughts about what could be done to make it feel smoother overall. A quick note, I will be comparing DRK to WAR at times, since I feel like they really hit the nail on the head with WAR.

1) Reprisal isn't reliable as MT and useless as OT. Warrior gets a straight up 10% damage debuff built into a combo, meaning they can apply it whenever they wish. Of course, I understand they shouldn't just copy paste abilities or things will feel too much the same. In this case, I would make Reprisal not require a parry proc and instead be an oGCD ability (as it currently is) with a 20 second cooldown. The reason for this, is that you can only apply it to a single enemy at a time(whereas WAR can apply it to multiple), but it keeps the benefit of being oGCD with extra damage.

2) Change Dark Dance's DA buff to give you TP back instead of evasion. A simple switch that would make a huge difference. It doesn't need to be a large amount of TP, just enough to keep you going (similar to how WAR can gain TP). In this case, it varies in the sense that you must sacrifice MP to do so.

3) Swap Delirium and Souleater's potency. The reason for this one is to make your main damage combo more useful. Instead of just constantly re-applying the INT debuff (and clipping it), you could be gaining a small amount of self healing. I'm aware that Warrior also has the issue of having a higher potency debuff combo, but this would solidify DRK as the self healing tank. If nothing else, simply swapping the potency when turning Grit on would add self healing for MT while still keeping Delirium the higher combo when OT.

Anyway, what do you guys think? These are just my thoughts of what feels off, and I fully realize that they likely won't be put into effect. Just fun thoughts of what could be done, and would love to hear if anyone else feels like PLD and DRK just don't feel like they quite match up with WAR right now. Again, not trying to whine or complain about DRK, just hoping to see PLD and DRK be buffed up a little bit to be more on par with WAR.

[AlmightyDook]

The only thing I'm on board for is the TP refresh. Screw the evasion crap.

[Syzygian]

1) Reprisal isn't reliable as MT and useless as OT. Warrior gets a straight up 10% damage debuff built into a combo, meaning they can apply it whenever they wish. Of course, I understand they shouldn't just copy paste abilities or things will feel too much the same. In this case, I would make Reprisal not require a parry proc and instead be an oGCD ability (as it currently is) with a 20 second cooldown. The reason for this, is that you can only apply it to a single enemy at a time(whereas WAR can apply it to multiple), but it keeps the benefit of being oGCD with extra damage.

Storm's Path sees very little uptime on WAR since they only use it when absolutely necessary. You're actually seeing more returns on Reprisal since its on the boss literally every time you get a proc. DRK doesn't have 100% uptime on Reprisal because then they would have a Dragon Kick and Storm's Path clone that both stack with Storm's Path itself and have 100% uptime. Its a balancing act. Its also a DPS gain for the DRK to keep DE and RE up, whereas WAR has to make a sacrifice. You can also guide when the proc is available with DD usage, popping DD 15-20 seconds before a TB or raid-wide nuke to be sure the mitigation is there when needed. In practice, it really doesn't function much differently than Storm's Path at all, and with planning, it has the same availability. The only issue is with fights that are largely magic based where you can't Parry, and in that case, DRK is still pulling its weight just by bringing DE and its insane magic mitigation cooldowns. Also, as far as OTing, there is almost no fight in the game right now that is relevant where there are not adds to pick up and get RE procs from. The only way this is an issue is in a fight where there are no adds or any extremely small number of or very weak adds, in which case people are going to try to solo tank it all together, which is even better for DRK as it is the ideal MT at the moment.

2) Change Dark Dance's DA buff to give you TP back instead of evasion. A simple switch that would make a huge difference. It doesn't need to be a large amount of TP, just enough to keep you going (similar to how WAR can gain TP). In this case, it varies in the sense that you must sacrifice MP to do so.

The evasion boost is incredibly useful in 4-man content. Pop it with DA DP and you dodge a LOT. All you have to do is be smart enough to not use it with Blood Price up.

3) Swap Delirium and Souleater's potency. The reason for this one is to make your main damage combo more useful. Instead of just constantly re-applying the INT debuff (and clipping it), you could be gaining a small amount of self healing. I'm aware that Warrior also has the issue of having a higher potency debuff combo, but this would solidify DRK as the self healing tank. If nothing else, simply swapping the potency when turning Grit on would add self healing for MT while still keeping Delirium the higher combo when OT.

So you want to basically just spam Souleater over and over and over? Souleater hits crazy hard, that's enough to make it useful on its own, and Delirium is the second highest potency of your combos and applied INT% down and restores MP. They're both incredibly useful. Anyway, the self-healing from Grit is rarely utilized anyway, as the best DRK's turn Grit off on boss fights completely after getting aggro, and then never turn it back on unless they are strapped for cooldowns. Also if you don't want to clip DE then don't. Use an extra DASE instead, if there's no raidwide magic damage incoming. Too many DRK's are afraid to let DE fall. You can let it fall off and be no worse for the wear. In fact if there's a MNK in the party, I just spam DASE until I actually NEED MP to use DE. None of this would solidify DRK as the self-healing tank either, because Equilibrium/Thrill of Battle/Second Wind on WAR are just retarded (You can Holmgang something and then, if Berserk is up, almost completely heal yourself back up with no healer input. Broken.)

I've always stood by the fact that DRK is the well balanced tank, as just like every other non-tank in the game, it has distinctive pros and cons. IMO, PLD and WAR are the ones that are unbalanced. PLD is incredibly weak right now, and WAR feels balanced like the hand cannon in Dead Space feels balanced. People can't tell the difference between well-designed and overpowered, and think because a job has literally no consequential weaknesses that that should be the standard, whereas I look to the rest of the jobs in the game, healers, DPS, melee/casters etc. to see the standard, and they all excel in a few areas and are less than ideal in others. Honestly, if you like WAR better, that's the job you should main, IMO. But I think if you push DRK to the limit you'll find that none of these things really hold it back or hold water in practice.

Oh, and yeah, a TP refresh would be cool, but as I'm one of those DRK's that avoids Grit like the plague, it takes me a long time to TP floor, and so far the only fight where that has been a real issue is A4. So I barely worry about it/consider it a big issue.

[Brian_]

Reprisal vs. Path is not a good comparison and, based on logic and reason, should not lead to the adjustment you suggested.

Path's effect is a combo'd bonus. Path costs a GCD. Path is a DPS loss to apply. Those are the downsides that make it balanced.

Changing Reprisal to an unconditional-oGCD with 100% up-time with no added downside is stupid. You already can't apply it to multiple enemies. And, unless you are letting Eye drop, a WAR can't apply Path to multiple targets either.

As for TP issues, it doesn't require this drastic a change. DA DD is useful in dungeons and even in some raid situations. TP issues can easily be resolved just by reducing the TP cost of rotation GCDs like lowering Scourge from 60 to 50.

[Jonnycbad]

Does the 20% Evasion on Dark Dance increase your evasion BY 20%, or does it add 20% to whatever your existing Evasion chance is? If it's the latter, then it's sorta useful in that you dodge upwards of 20% of incoming auto attacks. if it's the former, then your base evasion rate is like 5% anyway, which makes it 6% with Dark Dance...besides I don't think high end raid bosses ever miss anyway.


As far as restoring TP...they could add an ability in the future that does this, but at a price perhaps. Make it cost 50% of your max MP to restore 300 TP or something.

3) Swap Delirium and Souleater's potency. The reason for this one is to make your main damage combo more useful. Instead of just constantly re-applying the INT debuff (and clipping it), you could be gaining a small amount of self healing. I'm aware that Warrior also has the issue of having a higher potency debuff combo, but this would solidify DRK as the self healing tank. If nothing else, simply swapping the potency when turning Grit on would add self healing for MT while still keeping Delirium the higher combo when OT.

Anyway, what do you guys think? These are just my thoughts of what feels off, and I fully realize that they likely won't be put into effect. Just fun thoughts of what could be done, and would love to hear if anyone else feels like PLD and DRK just don't feel like they quite match up with WAR right now. Again, not trying to whine or complain about DRK, just hoping to see PLD and DRK be buffed up a little bit to be more on par with WAR.

Aren't DRKs using DA for Souleater like 90% of the time anyway? I only use Delirium to keep the debuff on, but most of my combos are Souleater combos anyway unless I'm low on MP which is not the majority of time.


I think they need to start adding Piety to mainhand DRK weapons as a bonus stat. It's not like PLD which only uses a bit of MP here and there. We use a TON of MP, and having an extra 90-100 Piety on all of our i200+ weapons should be a thing. As our ilvl increases, we never get more MP, and there's no bonus Piety on any of our armor. Having more Piety means more Dark Arts and more DPS. I wouldn't mind having an extra 300-400MP.

[Syzygian]

Does the 20% Evasion on Dark Dance increase your evasion BY 20%, or does it add 20% to whatever your existing Evasion chance is? If it's the latter, then it's sorta useful in that you dodge upwards of 20% of incoming auto attacks. if it's the former, then your base evasion rate is like 5% anyway, which makes it 6% with Dark Dance...besides I don't think high end raid bosses ever miss anyway.

There is no "base evasion rate" per se as it scales against the discrepancy in lvl/ilvl between you and what's hitting you. I am almost positive the boosts from DADD are additive as otherwise the cooldown would be almost unnoticeable, and most certainly is noticeable. Go into a dungeon and pull 8-10 mobs, pop DADD and you'll see what I mean.

As far as restoring TP...they could add an ability in the future that does this, but at a price perhaps. Make it cost 50% of your max MP to restore 300 TP or something.

Aw hell no.

I think they need to start adding Piety to mainhand DRK weapons as a bonus stat. It's not like PLD which only uses a bit of MP here and there. We use a TON of MP, and having an extra 90-100 Piety on all of our i200+ weapons should be a thing. As our ilvl increases, we never get more MP, and there's no bonus Piety on any of our armor. Having more Piety means more Dark Arts and more DPS. I wouldn't mind having an extra 300-400MP.

This doesn't work because the MP costs/returns of your abilities do not scale with your Piety stat but with your lvl. If they do, then it takes an ungodly amount to make a difference, and costs will zero-out any benefit (DS will tick you for more, DA will cost more, etc.), and otherwise, you'll have the same problem with MP that full VIT tanks have with HP, in that it takes more to heal yourself back up. TL;DR - Piety is garbage on DRK and putting 100 or even 200 of it on our Weapon alone would make a completely negligible difference because of the way we consume/recover MP. Its like giving Piety to BLM - very similar concept.

We do use a TON of MP, and we also get back a TON of MP, very easily.

[MiniPrinny]

-snip-

It's very much an additive boost. As Syzygian said, if you need proof, go piss off a horde of dragons and use the enhanced version of Dark Dance, it's even better against targets that can be blinded. As for raid bosses missing, it's something of a strange situation at the moment. Some raid bosses I have, through fat fingering, seen miss their basic attacks, notably the Oppressors, the Engineers (A2S), and Liquid Limb (I can't say about Living Liquid himself). Also, every boss in the Void Ark can miss, it's hilarious against Echidna to watch her charge up Sickle Strike and then... wiff it. If anything, its worth experimenting, raid bosses certainly have much higher accuracy, but they seem to miss on occasion if you severely boost your evasion.

[RecklessLion]

As a fan of tanks I feel bad for the DRK. I feel like they're dps with heavy armor. I kind of feel for this class once a powerful mob shows up due to the lack of defensive cd. I took a lot of heat from a lot players by saying this but it's true. As of now WAR is complete. Hide behind Innerbeast and keep the storm debuff you will be fine. On the bright side DRK is definitely the more entertaining class out of the three. Diving on faces, kicking enemies in the nuts, three AoE attacks, dark arts to increase damage as long as you manage mp. They're monsters for the most part. Just not the best mitigation besides killing.

[Syzygian]

I kind of feel for this class once a powerful mob shows up due to the lack of defensive cd.

No accounting for the hoards of DRKs Gritlessly MTing raids with their lack of defensive CDs.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

My biggest gripe with Dark Knightis that their primary debuff, Delirium, is objectively useless in 95% of content, and of the remaining 5%, it's only valid 1/5th of the time, excluding when you have q monk in your party. Why am I using Delirium when it's not gonna do anything? Why not swap Delirium and Souleater potencies so it doesn't feel like we're forced to use the DRK equivalent of Failone when it has no benefit from the debuff, due to either no magic attacks, or a mnk keeping up DK?