I just don't understand it. Why is crafting so heavily required as a thing to do for your relic? Not only that, it requires being a specialist for each craft, where your only character is allowed to be 3 specialists. Nobody liked the crafting aspect when it was part of the Zodiac chain, so why do that same thing again, except even worse? Why must we require a Disciple of the Hand/Land class? This shouldn't be a thing and I actually want the crafting portion of the final step completely removed. Heck, I would rather 50, even 100 more Alexander runs than crafted pieces. Anyone else agree?
Crafting and the Anima Quest Chain
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12-17-2015, 08:53 AMFurrytractorCrafting and the Anima Quest Chain
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12-17-2015, 02:06 PMNova_Dresden
Because they needed to force a reason to make crafters happy. Players who only play to craft and make money are why they do stuff like this.
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12-18-2015, 03:59 AMFebrus
I agree. I don' t mind grinds. I could (and did, during the original relic) run the same content 1000 times over to do the job. Nothing will ever be worse than the Zodiac grind where I literally ran the same dungeons 60+ times each just because I'm super unlucky and couldn't get my item drops. If I'm willing to do that, I'm willing to grind out this new relic... but crafting is a no go for me.
I do not go through my day to day garbage just to get home and watch my avi sit in a corner and stare into a glowy light for hours and hours. I don't know how crafters can do it. I honestly admire their patience, but it's not for me. I log on to actually play a game. I don't log on to count digital sheep and make myself pass out from boredom. All this step of the relic does is essentially lock non-crafters out from finishing the grind they committed to, because the crafting community are basically the digital incarnation of corrupt capitalism and charge millions upon millions of gill to exploit players who can't make these items themselves. It's disgusting. I'd rather roll the dice with PUGs in Alexander Savage than buy into it. -
12-18-2015, 04:16 AMSarealVery accurate. Whoever is in charge of the economy doesn't even play the game I'm sure. I personally wouldn't find it so bad if the whole quest didn't reek of lazyness. We are only on the first few steps of the anima weapon and it's already a carbon copy, albeit worse, of the whole Zodiac questline. I thought heavensward looked promising at release, but now it's just disappointment on top of disappointment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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12-18-2015, 04:47 AMChameleonMS
A crafter response.
But you do, it is called a screen, the lights just flash a little more often for DoW actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Honestly though, significant parts of the crafting challenge is solving a problem. The problem, how to HQ this item with these skills and this many turns. It requires forethought and some basic mathematics.
DoW stuff, has nearly zero consequence for failure, just do it again. Each DoW event is scripted, just learn the script and repeat it. Even in failure, you gain mastery of the script.
For crafting, failure equals loss of materials.
It's all about keeping score. DoWs keep score with X clears of content. Crafters keep score with opulence and Gil. Everyone wants the high score.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
The buyers are incharge of the economy of single item. If an item is not selling at price X, the seller lowers the price until it does sell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sareal
SE is incharge of what crafters can make that would actually be useful. If something is useful and difficult to make and/or rare, it will cost more; just like any economy. Suppy and demand.
FYI, SE owed crafter's one after screwing us with 3.1 and overmelding. -
12-18-2015, 04:53 AMAnimaAnimusNo they don't lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ChameleonMS
They let it sit at that price because even if they have the item 10m gil over the price it should be, someone will eventually buy it.
Crafters set the price with undercutting. The more crafters making items, the more they want to sell it the more they undercut each other. -
12-18-2015, 04:59 AMChameleonMSI see you agree with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus
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12-18-2015, 05:18 AMSarealYou don't seem to realize that they plan these things. They create your so called "Supply and Demand". For instance, they decided that they would stimulate the economy by making it so you need to buy crafted items, made SPECIFICALLY for the relic weapons. This, paired with the fact that everyone and their grand mothers will want the weapon, creates insane inflation for the required items. It doesn't need to be like this, this is a design that was blatantly made this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChameleonMS
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12-18-2015, 05:32 AMChameleonMSI do understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sareal
Demand is high right now, as the content is new and supply is very low, which, as you have stated creates insane inflation.Quote:
SE is in charge of what crafters can make that would actually be useful.
Does it need to be this way, gosh, no but you do not NEED an optional item either. Seriously, outside of AS3 or AS4, what will a 210 weapon do for you that the 200 weapon hasn't been able to do for the last 5 months? -
12-18-2015, 05:46 AMSarealOkay, so basically you justify bad design with "you don't need to do it". In fact, nobody needs to play this game, Square doesn't even need to support it. Technically, the game doesn't need to be fun. I could go on, but there won't ever be a middle ground with this mentality. The fact remains that crafting is a poor design choice for the direction of the quest. You don't share that opinion? That's fine, but I personally, amongst obvious many, don't agree that it is the direction the relic should be taking. All of this without mentioning that it's basically just a rehash of the old relic quests anyway. I wouldn't mind a bigger grind, given that needing to buy intentionally jacked up priced items to finish a step that isn't even as good as the A4S weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChameleonMS
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12-18-2015, 05:47 AMwinsock
The RMT ppl are probably happy! :(
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12-18-2015, 06:43 AMChameleonMSNo, it is not a poor design because crafting is part of the game play that is attainable by the average skill player in general population. Thus, SE has chosen to leverage it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sareal
The relic is a grind lots of "easy" content for a rich reward.
If SE designed the relic to require a component from the "hardest" content in the game and on top of that make that item drop RNG with low percentage.
The from QQQing would be astounding.
As for a rehash, sure, they are re-using previous elements of the game to aid in replay of the content, otherwise the content would be dead and gone completely. Gotta help the new players with the queue times somehow.
The players complaining about crafting requirement are the players that have chosen to no play that aspect of the game play. -
12-18-2015, 06:57 AMFevelleForcing players to play a class so they can complete certain content IS bad design. It was the reason they discarded long term FF systems like monster weaknesses and elemental wheel. Why would it be ok with the relic?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChameleonMS
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12-18-2015, 07:44 AMNyghtmarerobu
I'm not a big fan of the crafting portion of the new relic either, but it doesn't bother me that much. I think people need to be a bit more savy with their gil. If something is expensive, don't buy it. Relics are very new, its only the 2nd day. Of course the crafted items are gonna be super expensive. If you wait till you finish the grind portion, I would bet the price of those items would have gone down. Supply would be high, and demand would be low since its to much money.
. . . Unless all the crafters are working together to keep prices high, but I doubt it. right? -
12-18-2015, 08:04 AMFebrusWrong! I do not sit in corners and watch the bright lights. I run around causing them. Totally different lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChameleonMS
On a more serious note:
This is not accurate. Firstly, there is no comparing the difficulty of crafting scripts to running end-game tier raid content. I don't think anyone considers them to be even remotely close. It's true that most if the end-game encounters are scripted, but those scripts require maximizing the potential of the job you go in with, memorizing the script of the encounter and your specific roll in it, and then actual applying that knowledge in real time (including adjustments for individual latency). You're also coordinating with 7 other people and trying to get it right. If someone else screws up, everyone else has to pick up the slack. By comparison, sitting at a nice peaceful crafting desk and hashing out some bare bones basic problem solving seems trivial.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChameleonMS
Secondly, Raiders (especially those who do not have a static and run with PUGs) do in fact lose resources for each failed run. Besides the obvious gill they spend on constant repairs, the number one resource they lose is time. For each failed run of end-game content, there is miles of other content that Raiders did not get to complete (that includes crafting). Further, each failed raid is essentially 80 minutes of grinding with almost zero reward. You gain experience, sure, but experience can only be considered a limited reward at best.
The reason for this is because your progress is tied to a party. After you have learned the content (or a specific phase of the content) there is no more experience to be had, yet you can still fail because your success rides on the competence of seven other people. I've run Thor Ex up to meteors dozens of times. I could do it with my eyes closed, but if I set up a PUG right now the odds are good that we wouldn't even clear the knights. It only takes one new player to set the rest of the team back, and that costs everyone time. Time is the most precious resource of all, since we are all paying for it with our subscriptions.
Lastly, it's not about keeping score. I have run Raid Content all the way from First Coil to now, and I honestly could not tell you how many clears I have of any specific Raids. I couldn't tell you, because it doesn't matter. I didn't run them to keep score. I ran them because they were the next step after the regular old dungeons and extreme Trial content and they are challenging and fun. It's no different than completing a game on Normal Difficulty and then progressing into Hard Difficulty or New Game +. It's just what's next, and what's next is funner than what came before. The nice benefit is that there are some damn fine rewards if you actually win, but that's just a nice perk. Given that the fail rate for end-game content is far higher than the success rates, the only real reason to go back over and over (especially after you cleared once), is because it's the funnest "current" content in the game. When something new comes out, people who like to progress in their gameplay will move on to that. I can't say the same for crafting, because, personally, I find it boring as dishwater regardless of the recipe. -
12-18-2015, 10:31 AMGiantbane
I have all crafting classes at 60, but I hate the way they've set this up.
It's just an attempt to justify their crappy specialist system. The specialist stuff is all backwards. Instead of a specialist having an easier time crafting (all the specialist actions are expensive and heavily based on RNG), it just gates some random recipes behind them. Dumb. -
12-18-2015, 11:11 AMChameleonMSSo very true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
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12-18-2015, 11:28 AMChameleonMSThank you for thoughtful reply. I was not attempting to directly the difficulty of end game raid to end game crafting in terms of difficulty. Raid is clearly harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
End game crafting is just as time and Gil consuming though.
We have to gather; waiting for unspoiled nodes to appear to get the mats, praying to RNG the whole time. And / Or we have run dungeons and win drops for mats.
Use those mats to craft collectables.
Turn in those collectables for Scripts.
Use those scripts to buy end game mats.
Then finally, we get our chance to do the final 3 minute long craft, which even with the best gear, is still subject to RNG, 2 failed Hasty Touches and the craft goes from 100% HQ to 60% real fast. Not enough Good conditions, and there will not be enough CP to execute the maximized finisher rotation. If any of this RNG badness happens, we then must pray again to RNG that Reclaim does not lose our mats.
Yes, crafters can and do take Gil short cuts and buy the mats off the MB; but so can a DoW buy a clear anyone?
With regards to the relic, requiring optional class (crafting / gathering) for optional content is fine. -
12-18-2015, 12:34 PMNova_DresdenNo. SE chose to leverage it because there are players who solely play this game to craft and make money and be rich. This was their way of forcing players who otherwise wouldn't interact with the market to have to use it. I have almost zero interaction with the market on a daily basis until stuff like this happens and then I'm forced to dump millions of gil into it and try to recover that back at a later time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChameleonMS
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12-18-2015, 03:51 PMSarealUsing old content as the content of the relic is something in on itself. But do you not see that these steps of the Anima weapon are literally a copy-paste steps of the Zodiac relic?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChameleonMS
Um....what? I did crafting back then, and I still intend to do it. That point is moot and is only very specific to each person's perspective of the design.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChameleonMS
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12-18-2015, 03:52 PMSarealIf you choose to not see it as a poor design choice, that's your own opinion. But to me, the design choice being poor is strong in this one. If the required items were items that were used for an already existing recipe, I would most likely shift my perspective of the design choice, but as it stands right now, they made completely new recipes for the sole purpose of the Anima chain quest, which to me, is poor design choice, as the only incentive to create and sell these items is to make gil. Again, thats my own opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChameleonMS
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12-18-2015, 10:36 PMkensatsu
Hi,
the problem is the not craft, if you are crafter you should know there is not enough usefull craft atm, only food, potion, craft stuff, other selling item is for glamour use.
so they add craft in this very long quest, it make you thing you don't craft so you have to buy in the Market Board.
It's false, you have buy in the Market Board, or interact with others players (in this case crafter)
Where is the problem in a MMO to interact with others players ? you forget you need a group to farm your dgn i think...
Because on market board the item is expensive for 2 reason :
1) High demand on item
2) Item asked for the craft come from diadem and atm there not enough of these item in market board, gatherer have to farm diadem for this items.
Anyway i don' find often people looking for crafter in the Party Finder, because players only buy on market board, so players don't like to interact and wanna play solo in a MMO as usual... Do that and pay more gils. there a other reason to buy thing in market board, you need it asap so you don't have time to find a crafter, don't wait to need the items asap -
12-18-2015, 11:58 PMChameleonMSAnother method of being more savy is put up a PF or shout for a crafter to help you. You will get better price by 1/3 - 1/2 from a crafter your directly speaking with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu
The crafter makes a quick profit (albeit smaller) than the MB but Gil flows in faster this way. I know I and may other crafters do this a on regular basis.
My most recent personal experience with this:
A random shouted in Limsa requesting the Zodiac crafts, he put a PF, and I obliged first (3 others also responded before I finished the first craft).
I spent about 30 minutes crafting for that player, he supplied the mats, I received a small tip for each craft (5K).
Each completed item, averaged 40-70K on MB
He got each one for approximately 20K (including tip)