Praetorium warning for new players?

I'm cross-posting this suggestion that I made in a Reddit thread, because these types of "I didn't get to enjoy the Praetorium" threads pop up often there...

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At the end of 2.55's MSQ there's a warning message that pops up before certain cutscene chains - "This will take a while to view, set aside some time first."

I'm not sure why they haven't added a similar warning for Prae (CM also, to a much lesser extent.) Something like "Consider making a group using the Party Finder in order to properly enjoy cutscenes."

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Basically, it might help new players get some clue as to what they're in for - not everyone has an attentive FC or friends that'll warn them about this kind of thing ahead of time. You're not limiting new players from using the Duty Finder if they want to, but you're making them aware of the potential risks in doing so.

'Reply' edit as of 12/14/15:

Hey, wow. I'm surprised this got as many views and as much discussion entailing it as it did. I want to start off by thanking everyone who has taken part in the discussion about this, no matter which side you're on. Dialogue is ultimately the only way to get something like this attention, and it might even open the door to potential fixes.

I want to take the time and reply to some of the common themes I've seen through thread posts - I won't be replying to any one person individually, both because I'm not looking to start any arguments and because multiple people have echoed these themes throughout their posts. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, so here are some of my own:

Adjusting the current system/adding NPC helpers to these dungeons

Someone already said it, but my suggestion was intended to be low-impact on SE's workload if they took something like it up. To actually change the entire way the system works to accommodate this (or these) dungeons would take time away from a team that, frankly, seems like they already work themselves to the bone to provide what content we get on a patch-by-patch basis. However, I figure if they can take the time to code a new animation for Fenrir to fly, they could easily lob in a pop-up message after the "Praetorium Unlocked" eyecatch.

Stifling speedrunning/Negative punishment for speedrunners

While I agree that maybe certain speedrunning attitudes ought to be punished (not the ones who are just looking to get their tomes, but the ones who actively attempt to ruin a new player's experience in the dungeon, even if they're just hanging back and watching cutscenes) ultimately what'll happen is this will turn into another 'vanilla' Pharos Sirius situation. Back in 2.1 when we had 5 dungeons on our highest roulette, PS being one of them, players would immediately drop out of PS when they saw it load. They didn't want to commit the time because PS in it's original form had a slight difficulty to it (mainly dependent on your brain cell count) and it took time. It wasn't cost-effective nor worth the effort that seemed to be required, and so players left. This is what would happen if something like this were implemented into Prae, or there was a roulette of some sort keyed for this - when players saw the dungeon load, they would leave. Unfortunately, gating cutscenes/punishing tomerunners is only going to lead to abandonment of the instance, which will make queue times even worse.

The content is old/the time for a fix for this is passed

Yes, Praetorium has been out for two and a half years at this point. I do feel that SE ought to have attempted harder to nip this in the bud when this type of thing was coming to light, but there's only so much you can do in the short-term basis, and a long-term fix as stated above would have taken time and resources away from current content in order to implement. However, I disagree with the notion that this isn't relevant any longer. Literally every player HAS to do this dungeon, even to this day. This argument might hold water if this were in reference to something optional or something dead, like the Crystal Towers. Ultimately, new players today still have to progress the 2.0 story, and therefore will eventually be faced with this dungeon in this exact situation. That has not changed since launch, and it will not likely ever change unless SE makes story progression for 4.0 content optional. I said it in my original post, but these posts still crop up regularly on the XIV subreddit. That's proof positive enough that this issue is ongoing and not simply irrelevant to today's playerbase.

Just go in unsynced/use an FC

That's ultimately the whole point of this suggestion, if you think about it. If you (and I'm assuming the you reading this are a helpful soul) were reading the PF and you saw an obviously new player advertising positions for a Praetorum run with 8 slots open on the PF, would you maybe send them a tell saying "Hey, we can do this with like 2 or 3 people if we go in unsynced"? As it stands right now, new players are given no clue as to how the PF might be utilized except from a very early aside at level 16-17 or so saying that the PF was unlocked. If I were a new player looking at the PF, all I'd see were what is there now - a bunch of Savage static posts, Thordan EX and Unsynced Primal/Coil pony/glamour farms. I would assume that the PF was not something I could use - that it was for endgame. A new player is only going to take confidence in what they've been using - the duty finder, which until CM really isn't a problem. In no dungeon prior to CM is there any instance where a new player is going to be left behind by their group or given flak for viewing cutscenes, unless they've happened to meet someone actively trolling. This can easily be remedied by a newer player being given some sort of warning or encouragement that they too can use the Party Finder. As for the posts about people who have helped new players run this via their FC or because they're friends...that's absolutely great, and I very much know they appreciated your time taken to do so for them. But we cannot guarantee that everyone has those friends, or has that helpful FC - in fact, many new players can easily get snapped up into larger FCs that are looking for the numbers. In those cases, it's very rare that someone is going to take the time to lend them a hand. That's why I think it'd be best if SE just coded a simple message to throw the new players a bone in this particular instance. Nothing complex, nothing involved, just an inkling as to what they might be facing in this circumstance.

Again, I want to thank everyone for taking the time to voice their opinion no matter whether you agree or disagree, or if you had an alternate suggestion. The main prompt for this post has been the number of times I've seen those frustrated threads by new players that simply were unaware of what Prae was going to be like for them. A good portion of those threads have even voiced such disgust with the game's community that they feel as though they want to quit - I'd like to think that most people are able to talk them out of this, but it's also very possible that some people's Prae has been toxic enough for them that they've quit the game over it. It's impossible at this point to adjust player's overall mindsets regarding Prae and cutscenes, and it's implausible to suggest SE go back and change the system to make it happen. Maybe if that content where they were saying you could take NPCs into older dungeons ever does come to light, maybe then this will stop being a problem and newer players can go through their first Praetoriums in peace. Until such a time, however, a simple message might help salve the situation.

It's not Square's fault that there's jerks in this game. I know what you mean, though. A while back I did a Praetorium run and waited outside of the bosses for players watching cutscenes. First boss people were a little patient. Everything after that all patience went out the window with the jerks. Sad considering 3 people in the party were watching cutscenes. At the hackwrench boss only 5 people were fighting, I was waiting for two people watching cutscenes (a healer and a tank, by the way). Apparently there were enough jerks in the party to get me kicked because I waited for the new players instead of fight the boss. But, I stand by what I said in that and every other dungeon I've been in, main story or side. Watch the cutscenes, that is the only time you can get the full experience of them. No, really, there's a thread around somewhere that say cutscenes in the inn don't have the little touches you normally get.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

It's not Square's fault that there's jerks in this game.

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True its not Square Enix's fault, at launch, but now in 3.0...

I do not know how Praetorium is run on the Japanese servers, but everyone here has a idea of what newcomers experience on the western servers. SE did not know when they released the game, but two years later and we are still seeing threads where newcomers complain that a climactic moment in the game got ruined for them, because they were stuck in a cutscene and the bosses were killed or worse kicked out of the group, because they were in a cutscene too long. SE should know about this issue and if they do not know, then the community representives are doing something very wrong on the US/EU section of the forum.

Aryujin, I like your suggestion, but I fear majority of players will ignore it and join via the Duty Finder. A possible suggestion could be to remove the need to have a party and let the other scions or mercs join the warrior of light in the Praetorium. This should give the player the option to enjoy the cutscenes in their own time and there is no gain like a loot, because no loot is dropped. Afcourse one can not do the roulette with npcs.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

It's not Square's fault that there's jerks in this game.

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This is correct, but it is Square's responsibility to provide an environment where new players are not at the mercy of jerks. While this idea wont fix the problem, it is definitely something that I would like to see implemented.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

A possible suggestion could be to remove the need to have a party and let the other scions or mercs join the warrior of light in the Praetorium.

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Unfortunately, while a nice suggestion, this will never ever happen because that takes far too much coding for old content, and they wont waste the precious few development resources that they have on this, when it could go towards current content.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

it is Square's responsibility to provide an environment where new players are not at the mercy of jerks

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Agreed.
This would be better than nothing, though.
PF is mentioned once as people level (if I remember right). I didn't use it at all until I was level 52. DF was pushed so hard, I simply forgot there was an alternative.

I actually recently 2-man'd Cape Westwind, Castrum Meridianum, and Praetorium with a friend since they never really got to enjoy them the first time through. It was a lot of fun, though the fact that they were pressured into ignoring everything during the dungeon because of impatient goons is both sad and less than surprising. I think SE immensely overestimated the community by presuming that most random parties would be kind to newbies. I think OP's suggestion is a good one. Even if players ignore it and get trouble from jerks, at the very least you get a warning which is more than what they're doing about it now (which is literally nothing).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

This is correct, but it is Square's responsibility to provide an environment where new players are not at the mercy of jerks. While this idea wont fix the problem, it is definitely something that I would like to see implemented.

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Jerks will be jerks, Regardless of what content or enviroment Square puts out, There will always be people who think you are on their time and abide by their rules.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

Jerks will be jerks, Regardless of what content or enviroment Square puts out, There will always be people who think you are on their time and abide by their rules.

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Quite right. What needs to be done is, instead of catering to the jerks and again making new players suffer long queues (we have Roulette to help new players, after all), we need to, as a community, treat jerks like the jerks they are. We are better than this, we should show it. This is a community problem, it needs a community solution.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

This is a community problem, it needs a community solution.

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Heh, good luck with that. Next you'll be trying to convince crafters and gatherers to sell only at minimal profit to make goods more accessible to newbies.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Heh, good luck with that. Next you'll be trying to convince crafters and gatherers to sell only at minimal profit to make goods more accessible to newbies.

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Nah, that's wishful thinking. I tried something similar in XI, but crafting takes soo much time and costs soo much gil. Even here it's expensive and time consuming. New players want cheap gear, they have the same avenues and resources as crafters with the benefit of not having to worry about jerks telling them to craft faster.

Honestly TC, the only solution to this is for new people to make friends and go in unsynced. The window time to fix this has long past.

Cleared Castrum Meridianum for the first time last night 2 tanks, 2 healers, unsynced. It was fun. Took longer than it would have than if we had any DPS, but we'll be back in with DPS when FC members are up to that point in the game. Praetorium will probably be handled the same way.

Luckily, before my first time, I have watched Mizzteq guide, and this problem is mentioned in the video. So I had time to prepare myself to deal with it. I feel sorry for new players that enter Castrum without a clue about this problem, all MSQ leading to this moment to feel "epic", finally you will face Livia, etc... and then its totally ruined.

All of the MSQ dungeons should have had mandatory cut scene viewing if the party happened to have any new players. While I appreciate people not wanting to watch lengthily cut scenes again and again, it isn't fair to those who haven't seen them. Frankly, Castrum and Praetorium were horrible design choices. No trial/dungeon should have 30+ minutes worth of cut scenes in an MMO.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

All of the MSQ dungeons should have had mandatory cut scene viewing if the party happened to have any new players. While I appreciate people not wanting to watch lengthily cut scenes again and again, it isn't fair to those who haven't seen them. Frankly, Castrum and Praetorium were horrible design choices. No trial/dungeon should have 30+ minutes worth of cut scenes in an MMO.

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No one would run MSQ Roulette if that was the case. As for the 30 mins Cutscene is fine at the end of the Duty Even the beginning is fine because if you don't like it, drop. Someone will take your place.

I think SE could properly address the issue if they really wanted to. If I recall correctly, there is one point in the Heavensward story when upon completion of a fight there is a cutscene that is immediately followed by a second fight. However, players can't simply rush in because they are placed inside of one of those bubble barriers that prevents people from engaging. I don't think it would be impossible for SE to implement points like for players to spawn into following a cutscene. Specifically, at the start of each boss encounter.

meh... the rewards from MSQ roulette are become less and less relevant. Just a matter of time until the speed running tapers off and it becomes more a thing for new players and their FC/LS/FL running them.

As was stated earlier....the time frame for implementing a forced fix of sorts is past on this content.

if they want fix, implement ilvl sync so people cant just force their way through it due to being over geared. but dont be surprised when no one queues up for these 2 dungeons again

If you added a more prohibitive Ilevel sync, what people DID que for it would push harder and faster and be LESS likely to be tolerant of others because it would slow them down on what is already a slow run.

Grab a friend or two, go in unsync'd. 2 or 3-manning it is almost the equivalent of doing it 8-man anyway. You can't really complain about difficulty either since fresh 50's did not find either particularly challenging. Also, we didn't have myth gear given to us in our job quests back then, which completely trivializes any want of challenge these days.

Last week I helped a friend clearing castrum and praetorium unsynced just 2 of us. I just solo everything with SMN and titan-egi, it's easy. Yeah the only way is to ask friends now, sadly.

Watching the cinematic and skip the fighting would be the best choice for a new player.

Meh i once saw a newbie advertising prae on pf asking for no CS skipping. he was there for hours and not one person joined.

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

No one would run MSQ Roulette if that was the case. As for the 30 mins Cutscene is fine at the end of the Duty Even the beginning is fine because if you don't like it, drop. Someone will take your place.

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They would if the rewards was good enough. And I was referring to the cut scenes during both trials. Nice suggestion for new players though: "Hey, if you don't like having to skip every scene then take a 30 minute penalty."

If you just give some of your time to your friends who just started the game. That's all they need.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

Jerks will be jerks, Regardless of what content or enviroment Square puts out, There will always be people who think you are on their time and abide by their rules.

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To be fair that goes for both sides of this issue. Sorry if you have 2 hours to watch cutscenes, I don't and the fact you expect me to sit on my hands a wait as you read as slowly as humanly possible is asinine.

So who is in the right in this situation? No one. Its poor planning and a lack of common sense by SE.

Also this hasn't changed since a week after official launch. Even during the opening week people were skipping scenes and watching them later to get through fast.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

To be fair that goes for both sides of this issue. Sorry if you have 2 hours to watch cutscenes, I don't and the fact you expect me to sit on my hands a wait as you read as slowly as humanly possible is asinine.

So who is in the right in this situation? No one. Its poor planning and a lack of common sense by SE.

Also this hasn't changed since a week after official launch. Even during the opening week people were skipping scenes and watching them later to get through fast.

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To be fair that is NOT being fair, that is just displaying the typical selfish "i don't want to wait on you, so you shouldn't make me" bottom line is if waiting a few minutes while someone who is not you watches cut scenes in a ROLE PLAYING GAME bothers you, then you should consider playing other games that get straight to the point, selfish is selfish, No matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

To be fair that is NOT being fair, that is just displaying the typical selfish "i don't want to wait on you, so you shouldn't make me" bottom line is if waiting a few minutes while someone who is not you watches cut scenes in a ROLE PLAYING GAME bothers you, then you should consider playing other games that get straight to the point, selfish is selfish, No matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

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But it is two sides of the same coin. In both scenarios, someone is forcing their will/playstyle on the group.

And it isn't just a "few minutes" wait either for some of those scenes. I've gone taken a dump, come back, still in the cut scene (yeah.. TMI, but you know those aren't always quick trips). Other times I've gone and heated up a cup of coffee, creamed and sugared it, threw together a snack and come back with people STILL in cut scenes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VPLbImc084

In total, that runs close to 30 minutes worth of scenes until you defeat the final boss. Around 4.5 minutes just to start the first boss...like a 60-90 second fight these days.

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Originally Posted by Raist

But it is two sides of the same coin. In both scenarios, someone is forcing their will/playstyle on the group.

In total, it is close to 30 minutes worth of scenes until you defeat the final boss.

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Yea, that was really lame when even with 8 fresh 50, AF1 wearing, all 1st time running it noobs back when the game first came out, Praetorium never took more than 10-15 minutes to completely destroy. But those Cutscenes artificially inflated it to an hour. Now that we have high level gear to back us up then with out the CSs it takes less than 10 minutes to wreak the place in a speed run. But those CSs STILL artificially inflate the run time.

I love rookies and all, and if I have the time I'll cue into a CS party via PF, but if I'm running for the tomes or EXP then every extra second I'm in there is a second I wasn't somewhere else that offers better rewards. And THAT is the "Skipper" mentality. Go fast so we can go somewhere else.

The problem isn't really about sides, that's been decided for you before you even log on. This is a multiplayer game, it's second M in MMORPG. By logging on you are agreeing to play with other players whether you like it or not. Thus the argument of 'two sides' is really an argument of 'me versus everyone else'. By forcing other players to play faster you are imposing yourself on their playtime, impacting their enjoyment every bit as much as they you. Conversely they can either choose to speed up or keep watching cutscenes and for all intents you have no say in the matter, just like they have no say in your want to play faster. So it boils down to patience. I have patience enough for someone to watch a cutscene, it barely takes any effort to wait. Just like I'm sure there were people patient enough for the jerks to watch the cutscenes when they were there their first times.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Sorry if you have 2 hours to watch cutscenes, I don't and the fact you expect me to sit on my hands a wait as you read as slowly as humanly possible is asinine.

So who is in the right in this situation? No one. Its poor planning and a lack of common sense by SE.

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Yes it is poor planning on SEs behalf, but this isnt a 2 sided issue. dont get me wrong, you would be exactly right in any content except CM and Pre, because these dungeons are designed solely for beating the story. Even the rewards arent worth running these days (poetics), so if you want to be in these dungeons you should respect that people are in here for the story, not for levelling, not for loot/token rewards, they are there just to beat it and finish the story, which is unique to any other dungeon.

However, this is still SEs problem rather than the community's because I doubt my little paragraph is going to do anything to change anyone's mind, only SE has the power to enforce changes.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Yes it is poor planning on SEs behalf, but this isnt a 2 sided issue. dont get me wrong, you would be exactly right in any content except CM and Pre, because these dungeons are designed solely for beating the story. Even the rewards arent worth running these days (poetics), so if you want to be in these dungeons you should respect that people are in here for the story, not for levelling, not for loot/token rewards, they are there just to beat it and finish the story, which is unique to any other dungeon.

However, this is still SEs problem rather than the community's because I doubt my little paragraph is going to do anything to change anyone's mind, only SE has the power to enforce changes.

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But it IS a two-sided issue. You basically have two camps. One that wants to take their time and experience everything in total as written, and those that just want to get through it.

Why? Simple: SE is rewarding people to go back and run them again to help the new players out.

Up until now, the reward was quite substantial. So much so that it wasn't unusual to use roulette and get NO newbie bonus at all. And quite common that when there was someone new, it was only ONE or TWO in the group. With the current iLevels, those new players can be left behind in their cut scenes for the most part. And often do get left behind.

The problem is the incentive designed to bring veteran players back to carry the new players. We are reaching the point where that may no longer provide enough incentive, and then the DF queue for them may stagnate again. And if that happens, what will SE do? Put out a bigger carrot to bring those i200+ players back in there once a day...people who just want to get through it for the daily reward.

SE is sort of backed in to a corner with their design. Either they do something to encourage the carries, or they clamp down and force people to sit in queues all night to get the story done. The alternative is a complete revamp of the system somehow---they could provide NPC options like they eventually did with XI, or otherwise some sort of strong-arm tactic for the cut scenes (which will drive out veteran support in droves).

Until such time as they do something contrary to their trends up to this point, we will continue to have this sort of pissing contest because of the reward/time ratio involved with the current design.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

The problem isn't really about sides, that's been decided for you before you even log on. This is a multiplayer game, it's second M in MMORPG. By logging on you are agreeing to play with other players whether you like it or not. Thus the argument of 'two sides' is really an argument of 'me versus everyone else'. By forcing other players to play faster you are imposing yourself on their playtime, impacting their enjoyment every bit as much as they you. Conversely they can either choose to speed up or keep watching cutscenes and for all intents you have no say in the matter, just like they have no say in your want to play faster. So it boils down to patience. I have patience enough for someone to watch a cutscene, it barely takes any effort to wait. Just like I'm sure there were people patient enough for the jerks to watch the cutscenes when they were there their first times.

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But they have the option of teaming up with friends/LS/FC members, or doing it in PF.

Yes... that applies to both sides. However, there is a catch. Roulette---and it's subsequent bonus once a day. Without that incentive, or some sort of altruistic frame of mind---there isn't much reason for many to go back. And to get that reward, those veteran players HAVE to queue through the roulette.

And so the blade cuts both ways. Those needing it for story are rolling the dice by getting thrown into the roulette queue. Likewise, the returning players getting their daily bonus are getting the new runners thrown into their queues.

And that brings me back to my first statement. Those desiring to watch the cut scenes can go in as a premade...either by direct invites or posting a PF. Thus, there IS indeed a player driven solution to it. The problem is, many don't/can't spend the time to wait for the premade option. So, in a sense...the problem actually persists due to impatience. More so with some and less so with others...but impatience nonetheless.

The real issue?

The duty finder and anyone using it expecting anyone else to agree with their playstyle. Speed runners and storyline watchers alike. The only "warning" there should be is to warn people that random people won't have their same expectations. Both sides here are just silly.

what is Prae and castrum meant for ?...answer : completion of MSQ
what is duty finder there for ? : answer : to allow people to find other players to complete a given dungeon/instance etc etc
Why is there a reward given? : answer : ebcause some people will come to help you out on those instance
Do players that come to help know this ? : answer : yes they do


the whole point is...whoever comes to those instances that grant a reward do it or should do it only in order to help others to complete a given subject....mostly in Prae and Castrum.

If people are not mature enough to understand this concept no matter the amount of complains or posts on the Forum will help out on this occasion.

In short, players ARE selfish for the grand majority all they think of is themselves the rest is irrilevant. There are exceptions but is rare...

The most surprising thing is : if you have a friend or lets say a co-FC or co-LS member you will spend the time to help him out and even wait on CS..BUT take the same person without a LS or FC and you will not do it at all...how silly is that ?

dont tell me is not so because we all know is exactly so otherwise w^hy tell people to find friends or run content with friends or LS or FC? eh?

As one of those that was disappointed with the last dungeon (nah, I actually opted to watch the cutscenes since the party obviously didn't need me to complete it), I would agree it is pretty poor designing in hindsight to think that every time you run the dungeon you would need to endure 30+ minutes of cutscenes, if only to provide the graciousness of allowing that one person to experience the magnitude of the story at its climax. It would have been better to keep it and Castrum Meriandum off the roulette just to offset the number of people who run it solely for the bonus, leaving it to df the majority of new players.

And quite honestly, as a new player progressing at that point, PF and Fcs aren't really the easiest go-to option if you hadn't gone to the game prepared with acquaintances to help you. And every mission promotes Duty Finder exclusively that Party Finder would only exist if you happen to accidentally come across it in the menu options, which I think is also something that needs to be promoted a bit more.

Castrum/Prae should award 100-200 Eso each for doing it. However, each time you skip a CS, you lose 10-20 Eso per CS skipped. Since it takes so darn long with the CSes, it needs to be way more Esos than current dungeons. If you come in late, the game will act as though you skipped the CSes up to the point where the party is.

I started FF14 with Heavenward.
To be honest, i found it okay, that the mass a running through the instance and not looking or waiting for CS.
I just played it twice. First I watched the CS and second I played the boss encounter.

It is content older than 2 years. No one should expect to play it the way it was played during release.

Yes it was a bad concept to put that much CS in a Raid but SE learned and they never ever did it again.

Thank you all for taking the time to discuss this, no matter what your opinion on it all is. I went ahead and edited my first post to give my own perspective regarding some of the overall themes I've been seeing in some of the reply posts, so if you'd like to see my opinion please take a look.

Again, I'm really glad that this is being given attention and discussed! Thank you to everyone who's participated.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The real issue?

The duty finder and anyone using it expecting anyone else to agree with their playstyle. Speed runners and storyline watchers alike. The only "warning" there should be is to warn people that random people won't have their same expectations. Both sides here are just silly.

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Except uh, no. People who want the story don't get pissy and throw fits if their run is slowed down in the slightest (which I have seen a truly embarrassing number of times). It's not a 2-sided issue. People need to grow the hell up or maybe understand what they're queuing for.