Stop telling Tanks not to use provoke there is a place to use it when pulling mobs.

This has been discussed before. You should not use provoke has your only pulling skill, you should not use it when regeneration skills active or you have an inexperienced group. But it has nice range costs no tp and can be useful for speed runs and grouping mobs together from a distance.


This reminds me of when the game was launched and people where telling WHMS not to use medica 2, regen, or cure 3 because of emnity and now we have a bunch of healers that don't explore all of WHM abilities. Divine seal swift cast medica 2, regen, presence of mind cleric stance, holy holy holy..... click off cleric stance pop shroud of saints= GOD MODE HEALING in df. You can add or subtract shroud at the start of that rotation or end just mp management.

Provoke does nothing if others haven't put some enmity on the mob that you are provoking, it's better to use shield lob or tomahawk etc for pulling mobs. because they give enmity. Yup it has a nice range but it also has longer cooldown, you might need it when there's a melee dps surpassing your enmity when they are focusing on just one mob, but then again, it can also be easily prevented without provoke.

You are correct AriaEnia but there is a place to use it as long has the skill and it's limitations is understood. But to just say don't use provoke is incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Zazriel

You are correct AriaEnia but there is a place to use it as long has the skill and it's limitations is understood. But to just say don't use provoke is incorrect.

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Every rule has exceptions, but that doesn't mean we cant have rules. If someone was giving a new tank advice and said "Don't use provoke to pull, you might need it for something else", that would be good advice 95% of the time and I wouldn't argue with them.

I can see using it as a pull when trying to grab a lot, but I can see the risks assuming the group or healer isn't aware that is your plan before casting heals.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

Every rule has exceptions, but that doesn't mean we cant have rules. If someone was giving a new tank advice and said "Don't use provoke to pull, you might need it for something else", that would be good advice 95% of the time and I wouldn't argue with them.

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That would be horrible advice. Good advice would be to make sure they understand how the ability works, not just some blanket statement of don't use it for pulling. I pull with it all the time to gather up trash and i'm pretty sure I got a handle on tanking in this game.

I really appreciate all your responses. I'm just seeing a trend of blanket statements limiting gameplay that are false.

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Originally Posted by Rocond

That would be horrible advice. Good advice would be to make sure they understand how the ability works, not just some blanket statement of don't use it for pulling. I pull with it all the time to gather up trash and i'm pretty sure I got a handle on tanking in this game.

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The newbie tank needs the basics, not a rundown of the situations in which he may want to use Provoke instead of Shield Lob.

Provoke has its uses. Thing is in terms of emnity, it just makes you first. Handy enough when no one is beating on it, but eventually you have to provide an emnity lead to stay first.

It also has a greater range than shield lob

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Originally Posted by Moonleg

The newbie tank needs the basics, not a rundown of the situations in which he may want to use Provoke instead of Shield Lob.

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Saying that he might need it for something else isn't exactly helpful as it doesn't explain WHAT situation that might be. Provoke here works different from most MMOs that I atleast have played. Taking a few minutes to explain that it puts you on top of the current aggro list instead of just doing a certain percentage of aggro would be helpful for newbies.

Personally I feel that Provoke should always be saved as a backup. Shield lob / Tomahawk are more than sufficient for initial pulls. Yeah you have marginal extra distance, but why is that distance so important to you? I've never had an issue with grabbing a mob that way. It's best to have a provoke ready to go, especially if you're doing large / boss pulls where there's the danger that someone will steal hate from you... using it at the start creates an unnecessary risk since it's immediately on cooldown. Say for example you voke-pull bahamut in T13, and shortly after a blm nukes it and grabs hate. Now you're going to be ping-ponging hate trying to grab it back, instead of having a voke all ready to go to pluck it back easily.

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Originally Posted by Moonleg

The newbie tank needs the basics, not a rundown of the situations in which he may want to use Provoke instead of Shield Lob.

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Knowing how provoke works is hardly a rundown of situations. If a new tank really wanted advice on provoke, it would be to explain how it works and then let them decide how they want to use it. If they then wanted a more detailed explanation on whether or not they should pull with it, you would explain to them the advantages and disadvantages and how to overcome them. You wouldn't just say don't do it. That's bad advice. You should know why you should or shouldn't do something.

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Originally Posted by Rocond

That would be horrible advice. Good advice would be to make sure they understand how the ability works, not just some blanket statement of don't use it for pulling. I pull with it all the time to gather up trash and i'm pretty sure I got a handle on tanking in this game.

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You're absolutely right. I was paraphrasing the hypothetical conversation. When teaching someone it is obviously a good idea to explain the why behind what you're telling them.

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

Provoke does nothing if others haven't put some enmity on the mob that you are provoking, it's better to use shield lob or tomahawk etc for pulling mobs. because they give enmity. Yup it has a nice range but it also has longer cooldown, you might need it when there's a melee dps surpassing your enmity when they are focusing on just one mob, but then again, it can also be easily prevented without provoke.

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That's not true, provoke have a further distance then Shield Lob or Tomahawk. It is also very useful getting mob out of a tight cornor spot where usually Shield Lob and Tomahawk cannot. There are multiple times where provoke follow by a shield lob does the job nicely. I tend to do this a lot pulling mob far away, provoke will have them run to me and then a Shield Lob or Tomahawk does the job nicely.

It is only not useful only if you don't follow it up by another skills.

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Originally Posted by Zazriel

You are correct AriaEnia but there is a place to use it as long has the skill and it's limitations is understood. But to just say don't use provoke is incorrect.

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Yeah as long as the groups know what are they doing, provoke is really good to use frequently.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

It also has a greater range than shield lob

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I've a naughty habit of using it to pull because it has longer range rather than moving mobs and upsetting melée but Shield Lob needs to have the range extended.

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

Provoke does nothing if others haven't put some enmity on the mob that you are provoking, it's better to use shield lob or tomahawk etc for pulling mobs. because they give enmity. Yup it has a nice range but it also has longer cooldown, you might need it when there's a melee dps surpassing your enmity when they are focusing on just one mob, but then again, it can also be easily prevented without provoke.

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I believe it does the same amount as any other action (a flat value [was around 70 at level 50 iirc, so probably a little more than double that now] modifiable by enmity stance)? It may be the one exception to that enmity-per-action (even if no damage/healing dealt) rule though. If you use Provoke and a pop CD while in tank stance, your party casting Eye for an Eye or Regen (or, Goad, Aetherial Manipulation, Warden's Paeon, etc.) on you won't steal threat. The first tick of said Regen almost certainly will though.

I noticed in duty finder it always starts with a question like why are you pulling withe Voke? When it's hasn't had any impact on the run like it's a opportunity to troll by presenting a question when they already know the answer. It's like when the game launched and people kept telling WHM not to use Medical 2, regen, or cure 3 because of emnity.

I usually save it for more tighter moments. I do not trust roulette DPS enough to keep their fingers still until I rounded up everything,
a Shield Lob saves me the time to grab the monster again when the Bard decides to drop their dots on the one I lobbed at.

A good reason to pull with provoke, too, is that it's oGCD. There are some times where if I'm in motion for shield lob my GCD isn't up in time for me to actually gain thread on the pull I just alerted, and thus when the DPS goes "IT'S RED, IT NEEDS TO BE DEAD" or the healer decides to do... anything at all. Then *I* am the one chasing the pull.

(And if you don't think this happens often enough, you have not had the kind of rowdy groups I've met.)

No one's ever told me not to use Provoke, though. Ever.

I pull with provoke if the group is spread out. It forces them to run at me and clump together - where I can flash s I run through.

At 60 you won't lose hate on AoE.

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Originally Posted by Rocond

That would be horrible advice. Good advice would be to make sure they understand how the ability works, not just some blanket statement of don't use it for pulling. I pull with it all the time to gather up trash and i'm pretty sure I got a handle on tanking in this game.

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That's an awesome answer. People get muddled if they are just given directions with no explanation why. People should always seek to understand things themselves instead of blindly following a rule they were told which may not apply to all situations. A lot of people also get stuck in a routine of doing runs a certain way they've seen done, instead of gaining enough understanding of mechanics to modify and improve their methods as increased gear levels create opportunities to change tactics.

I still regularly get people yelling at me for using medica 2, even though i don't pull hate with it. It's always a dps or the other healer, though, so I don't worry about it.

I remember having an argument with someone back in the days of LotA. I was complaining about how another tank voked IG off of me and tanked it in front of a comet with a bunch of people standing behind it causing a wipe. The person I was debating with could not give a shit about how the other tank caused a wipe and instead focused on how I pulled IG with provoke.

The thing about IG in that fight is that he spawns with built up enmity, therefore pulling it with tomahawk will just have him running straight into the middle. So I have to provoke, otherwise a comet will explode.

All of your replies are super valid. I just wanted to refresh this topic because Ive been victim of and witness to players saying not to use provoke even when its clearly helpful, and it slows down clears having to explain my and others use of it. Its almost like its hard for some to let it go. Most players I think are trying to be helpful but misinformed.

The best reason I can thjnk of to use provoke to pull is the range. The most obvious use that comes to mind was in Wanderers Palace back when it was new. There was a set of stairs where you triggered the Tonberry patrolling the hall behind you when you passed a certain point. However, if you got it right, you could target and provoke the mob at thetop of the stairs, to reduce the number of mobs in the trash pack as you ran forward. This was before WP was nerfed and completely overgeared. You could alsouse it to pull certain monsters in AK - again before it was nerfed and overgeared. It's very useful to yank a specific moster from a pack at distance because you dont have to aggro the entire group. Shieldlob is useful too, but it's lower range means you may aggro the pack. That said, I'd definitely recommend getting comfortable with shield lob or tomahawk, before starting to use provoke for ranged pulls.

jp players pull with voke all the time sometimes they don't even pull just run up flash and attack.

There's very few places where I feel its OK to pull with Provoke (and most I only can think of right before I get to them during a run lol); two of the biggest ones from 2.0 are that Succubus on the other side of that room in AK, and the Tonberries on the stairs in the last corridor of Wanderer's Palace. I'll sometimes use it to grab another set of mobs during a speed-run (last set of mobs before the first boss of Neverreap, but only if I was pulling the entire island at once; if the pull was split in two I'd use my ranged attack instead), but I can't say that I always will pull them every time (depends on how the Healer and other DPS are in the dungeon). But as a general rule, I will not pull with Provoke, and any time I can pull with Tomahawk/Unmend/Shield Lob I will.

Most tanks that pull with provoke use it where their ranged attack is perfect, or even after they hit with it (for some reason, Lob then Provoke is how a lot of PLD pull. Even past 50. I don't even...). I've explained just how Provoke works to so many tanks, but most either done believe me or tell me I'm flat out wrong. OK, and you can parry magic damage too, right? (you don't even want to know how many tanks think you can...)

I voke all the time in dunjin pulls. Fight me.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I believe it does the same amount as any other action (a flat value [was around 70 at level 50 iirc, so probably a little more than double that now] modifiable by enmity stance)? It may be the one exception to that enmity-per-action (even if no damage/healing dealt) rule though. If you use Provoke and a pop CD while in tank stance, your party casting Eye for an Eye or Regen (or, Goad, Aetherial Manipulation, Warden's Paeon, etc.) on you won't steal threat. The first tick of said Regen almost certainly will though.

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I don't think Provoke generates any enmity, period. All it does is put you to the top of the aggro list. If I voke pull something and the healer casts Stone Skin on me before I get to follow up with a Shield Lob, the mob instantly aggros on the healer.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I don't think Provoke generates any enmity, period. All it does is put you to the top of the aggro list. If I voke pull something and the healer casts Stone Skin on me before I get to follow up with a Shield Lob, the mob instantly aggros on the healer.

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Just using Provoke will generate a tiny amount of aggro; every ability used will (which is why using some trash cool-down *coughforesightcough* during a larger pull is a good idea). However, in comparison to, say, stoneskin, its more or less negligible aggro.

It depends on how well your tank is geared.

If you are an i190 Tank with an i180 weapon trying to keep hate from an i209 Black Mage and Monk you'll probably need that Provoke every time it's cool down is ready. As an i209 Paladin I can't remember the last time I ever had to use Provoke due to losing hate. At this point there's no reason not to use it as a tool to pull additional packs of mobs; you just need to follow it up with a well-timed mid-battle Flash so they don't run for your healer.

Also, Provoke does not generate any enmity at all. If the main Tank has 7,000 Emnity built up and you use Provoke it simply puts you at 7,001. After a Provoke I once pulled hate right back just by using Sheltron.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

Also, Provoke does not generate any enmity at all. If the main Tank has 7,000 Emnity built up and you use Provoke it simply puts you at 7,001. After a Provoke I once pulled hate right back just by using Sheltron.

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You are right, and wrong. On the target of Provoke, it sets your aggro to the previous top aggro +1 (so, like you said 7000 -> 7001). However, on all other enemies you're aggroed to, it generates a tiny bit of aggro, just like other abilities on use (like the Shetron you used as an example).

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Originally Posted by PArcher

You are right, and wrong. On the target of Provoke, it sets your aggro to the previous top aggro +1 (so, like you said 7000 -> 7001). However, on all other enemies you're aggroed to, it generates a tiny bit of aggro, just like other abilities on use (like the Shetron you used as an example).

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maybe just 1 enmity? after all 0+1 = 1

Im so glad we are having this conversation. Lots of tanks from all skill levels use provoke in dungeons. Interesting to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I believe it does the same amount as any other action (a flat value [was around 70 at level 50 iirc, so probably a little more than double that now] modifiable by enmity stance)? It may be the one exception to that enmity-per-action (even if no damage/healing dealt) rule though. If you use Provoke and a pop CD while in tank stance, your party casting Eye for an Eye or Regen (or, Goad, Aetherial Manipulation, Warden's Paeon, etc.) on you won't steal threat. The first tick of said Regen almost certainly will though.

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No. Provoke does less than the standard action enmity (besides moving the tank to the top of the enmity list). A Provoke followed by a scholar using Eye for Eye or Aetherflow, for example, will result in the mobs targeting the scholar.

To me provoke is a emergency skill to pull hate if someone steal it or if I die,
yes depending on the group could be able to use it all the time but I always keep it safe for emergency, lets say u die from boss for whatever reason an you get raise,the provoke u want it available to get agro back, all provoke do is give you +1 of whatever amount the higher person with hate has.
if you pull with provoke an any of ur member cast some type of agro skill then u lose hate specially those blm explosions =( .

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

snip.

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not really. The enmity gain is
(Amount of enmity generated by the first person on the enmity list) +1

If the mob is still unclaimed, the total enmity gained is 1. Anyone using a CD gets aggro at that point

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Originally Posted by PArcher

However, on all other enemies you're aggroed to, it generates a tiny bit of aggro, just like other abilities on use (like the Shetron you used as an example).

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And this is wrong. Provoke is not a buff, and therefore has no influence on any enmity other than the mob you're targetting

After playing PLD and then also lvling WAR to add some mix to PF groups the amount of content ive done as tank is a lot and I have never used provoke to pull mobs. If the main point here is using provoke in dungeons sure go for it its 4 man content its nothing difficult. Unless its like the tanks that use provoke once they have aggro on everything and just use it as part of there rotation that is WRONG theres no need for it its literally doing nothing.

As for 8 man raids NEVER use provoke to pull, every tank ive seen do this ends in a enmity war and just screws you over in the long run. I did all coils a tank and on T13 got the help of some of the best tanks back on Tonberry (just to see if they can teach me anything) and NO ONE use provoke to pull. Best combination is Shield Lob or Tomahawk. If your a MT PLD Fight of Flight and Shield Lob and no ones pulling that boss off you.

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Originally Posted by Daenarys_Targaryen

As for 8 man raids NEVER use provoke to pull, every tank ive seen do this ends in a enmity war and just screws you over in the long run.

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Haha yeah this, enmity war. From labyrinth of the ancient, up to world of darkness, good times.