Could Wildfire be a little bit more casual friendly?

All the phase shifts and immunity phases which are quite often based on mobs HP are making me wonder if they were designed with Wildfire in mind.

I believe it would be better if this skill would get some QoL changes.

Either copying hallowed ground, which negates most of the damage, and making Wildfire something bosses can't negate, or changing the way skill works and splitting the damage up during the duration.

Something like, Wildfire exploding for 15% of dmg dealt every 3 seconds, 4 times in total, and then making up the difference during the fifth tick.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Archaell

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Wildfire is fine as is, this sort of thing is similair to other clases/job have to deal with concerning when to use their cooldowns is the matter at hand. If it's duration was longer than what it is now, then yes there would be a problem for most of the encounters.

What I would like is that it shouldn't get eaten by the 60 debuffs thing (looking at you, diadem), and well...being an actual explosion.

Know your cooldowns, use them when necessary and not when the boss will fly away. WF works fine and as intended.

Well I included the word "casul" in the topic. It might work fine, but I would like to see statistics of how often it doesn't explode. Not to mention that wasted wildfire usually also means several other wasted CDs. The penalty is quite big.

It's just buzzkill fighting bosses like Echidna. I seriously hate her.

I can agree that WF is a bit annoying, yeah yeah know the fight and know your CDs, but it's really useless during some add phases like A3S's add phase, and it doesn't come in handy at any point where you should be focusing something other than the boss. A1S spiders, a billion times in A2S, Jagd dolls in A4, the hand add in last phase of A3S, a million things come to mind. It flat out serves no use if the target will die or go invuln in the next 15 seconds which is a pretty good amount of time.
The problem is that wildfire lines up with 4 of your major CDs. It should be up with HE/BFB/RF every time, it should be up with RS every other time, and you can't just pop the other CDs without wildfire or vice versa because it'll ruin your timings for the entire fight, forcing you to hold a bunch of good buffs waiting for wildfire to come back up or vice versa, to sort-of force things back into place.

Following up on that post though, there's another problem in that MCH's DPS weighs so heavily on good wildfires already that buffing it like that could be a huge deal when it's already pretty well balanced with BRD.
I would like it though if you could at least trigger wildfire again to make it go off at whatever timing it's at. You could do something like dump all your big OGCDs right before a boss jumps for a decent amount of damage without having to worry about your skill timings too much.

The worst thing about WF is when there are too many debuffs on the target and you try to Wildfire, it will be erased. Example=Hunts, 24-man raids, Diadem, etc.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

The worst thing about WF is when there are too many debuffs on the target and you try to Wildfire, it will be erased. Example=Hunts, 24-man raids, Diadem, etc.

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It's not erased, it just doesn't show up on the target's debuffs.
Easiest way to confirm would just be to check for WF damage in a big raid where it's not showing up on the target, however on BRD if I apply WB + VB in a 24man and only one of the dots shows up, I still see +Venomous Bite +Windbite when I use iron jaws.

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Originally Posted by aabe

Following up on that post though, there's another problem in that MCH's DPS weighs so heavily on good wildfires already that buffing it like that could be a huge deal when it's already pretty well balanced with BRD.
I would like it though if you could at least trigger wildfire again to make it go off at whatever timing it's at. You could do something like dump all your big OGCDs right before a boss jumps for a decent amount of damage without having to worry about your skill timings too much.

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So far I haven't noticed that perfect Wildfire play would put me ahead of BRD... but wasted Wildfire usually puts me behind. Might be different when it comes to top players.

Another option would be to change Wildfire into a turret buff. It could work the same, but instead of the debuff the turret would get a buff that delivers the shot with the next attack. Basically it would hold onto the Wildfire till the target returns.

Edit:

This could create interesting opportunities through Promotion and were the buff persistant through dismiss, it could give us nice burst option.

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Originally Posted by aabe

It's not erased, it just doesn't show up on the target's debuffs.
Easiest way to confirm would just be to check for WF damage in a big raid where it's not showing up on the target, however on BRD if I apply WB + VB in a 24man and only one of the dots shows up, I still see +Venomous Bite +Windbite when I use iron jaws.

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Actually, Johnny has a point. An enemy can only visibly display two lines of debuffs/dots (as you've touched on) however they can only hold 4 lines of dots/debuffs total, therefore in zerg content it's not unusual for something like a wildfire to simply not get applied to a target while the CD still gets used. I would say machinists have the biggest problem in this regard as they stand to lose the most DPS from it which as we all know is directly related to the credit received.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

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Comparing my BRD to my MCH dragoon-less A3S is like... ~70 DPS diff comparing one of my best A3 clears on BRD to a sloppy MCH clear where we had like 10 deaths and I have really limited experience playing MCH in raids, MCH's personal DPS is really quite solid in the face of bard though I think A3 is favorable for MCH thanks to bishop turret and extra stuff like grenado shot in add phase.

BRD can fall behind MCH off of mistakes comparable to messing up wildfires too, though it's hard to make a mistake on BRD that you can say is as huge as screwing up a wildfire really badly. That big of a loss on BRD would be more like a bunch of mistakes combined.
It's just that WF is such a big part of competent MCH DPS that a buff to it like what you're suggesting could potentially set it well ahead of BRD.

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Originally Posted by aabe

It's just that WF is such a big part of competent MCH DPS that a buff to it like what you're suggesting could potentially set it well ahead of BRD.

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The competent MCH players rarely screw up WF, so it shouldn't change much imo.

My concern is with less competent MCHs vs less competent BRDs. If the classes are supposed to be interchangeable they need similar penalties for screawing up, and they should be balanced across all the player skill levels.

I wonder if we still have many more Bards in comparison to MCHs just due to the ugly lunch box and magic stick...

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Originally Posted by Archaell

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The competent MCH players rarely screw up WF, but a good MCH is right where they should be compared to a good BRD. There are many points of fights where WF is unusable or sub-optimal, and the job is still neck and neck with BRD. If WF was buffed to be better in the sub-optimal situations I'm describing, even if it was done with the intention of making the job easier for less skilled players, it could/would create imbalance at higher skill levels.

The skill floor is certainly a good bit higher than BRD but I think every job has bare basics, some core things specific to the job that players will need to learn, and everything beyond that is optimizing. Wildfire is one of MCH's cores, and so a less skilled player should look to get gud at it after they have the rotation down.

Going past that, tweaking jobs so that they're balanced around lower skill levels is a REALLY slippery slope and it just overcomplicates things especially if you're trying to look to keep things balanced at all skill levels rather than a specific one.
Going past that there is a decent level of competence you're expected to have if you're doing raids at all, the jobs are interchangeable at this level of competency, and going lower than that, you don't really look for an optimal composition in most content that isn't the raid. Basically any job is interchangeable with any job at that point.

I will have to level up bard myself to judge it on the same skill level scale.

Speaking of gitting gud, any good encounter guides from MCH pow?

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I will have to level up bard myself to judge it on the same skill level scale.

Speaking of gitting gud, any good encounter guides from MCH pow?

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKi...PUwiN8Q/videos

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Speaking of gitting gud, any good encounter guides from MCH pow?

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Having played both I can say MCH def. has a higher skill floor but I didn't find it too hard to pick up after a long time maining BRD. encounter specific stuff is idk, as long as you have an alright concept of timings/potency per GCD you should be fine, though I did comparatively horrible on my first time running through savage as MCH

the other person posted it, but aiurily's channel is probably the only resource you'll have and it's about the best one you could ever get really

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Originally Posted by aabe

It's not erased, it just doesn't show up on the target's debuffs.
Easiest way to confirm would just be to check for WF damage in a big raid where it's not showing up on the target, however on BRD if I apply WB + VB in a 24man and only one of the dots shows up, I still see +Venomous Bite +Windbite when I use iron jaws.

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No, it won't be applied. I had Wildfire on a mob until 2s remained, and then it dropped due to too many debuffs, 2s later, no animation, no Wildfire! 5207! or whatever, no damage in chat log.

Wildfire forces you learn when and when not to use it. If you know a boss goes invulnerable a few seconds after pulling then you learn not to open with it.

I wish Wildfire worked kinda like the way it worked now, plus how Sublimation worked in FFXI:

Activate Wildfire, it gives you a "Wildfire: Charging" buff with a 15second cooldown
During the duration of the buff, 25% of your damage is 'stored'
When 15 seconds elapse, the "Wildfire: Charging" buff is replaced with "Wildfire: Charged" for 15 seconds
This allows you to use the oGCD ability "Blast Shot" (which can only be used with "Wildfire:Charged" buff on).
Blast Shot's damage is equal to 25% of your outgoing accumulated damage on the the target you're using it on while Wildfire was charging.

This would allow us to save/use Wildfire and output the damage at our discretion, without worrying about the target dying before it detonates/jumping off screen/becoming invulnerable/saving it for the next mob.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Wildfire forces you learn when and when not to use it. If you know a boss goes invulnerable a few seconds after pulling then you learn not to open with it.

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If wildfire were just a delayed blast... ok. But this skill is connected to many other skills. You have to also worry about having other abilities ready to feed it. Do you save other CDs to feed it latter? Or do you burn down adds?

With Wildfire you are also "target locked". Do you stop Wildfire combo to deal with mechanics? Or do you force others to do the mechanics so that you can finish the combo?

Wildfire in its current state is making MCH bloody difficult if you want to be efficient.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

If wildfire were just a delayed blast... ok. But this skill is connected to many other skills. You have to also worry about having other abilities ready to feed it. Do you save other CDs to feed it latter? Or do you burn down adds?

With Wildfire you are also "target locked". Do you stop Wildfire combo to deal with mechanics? Or do you force others to do the mechanics so that you can finish the combo?

Wildfire in its current state is making MCH bloody difficult if you want to be efficient.

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It's not that complicated. It's 90 seconds so it always aligns with b4b, HE, quick reload and rapid fire. The principle of "when or when not to use wildfire" applies for every other cooldown (raging strikes, B4B and HE), while your oGCDs are on such a short cooldown you'd always them at least for one cycle unless you used it right before using wildfire.

What I would like is johnny's idea, at least that would make it applicable in something like PvP, trash mobs or add phases. Wildfire isn't hard to use, but it's only really good for single target bosses.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

No, it won't be applied. I had Wildfire on a mob until 2s remained, and then it dropped due to too many debuffs, 2s later, no animation, no Wildfire! 5207! or whatever, no damage in chat log.

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Debuffs don't get pushed off like that. There's a display limit and an absolute limit. You can be pushed off the display.

If the absolute limit is met and you try to apply a new debuff, it will fail.
If the absolute limit is met and you try to reapply an existing debuff, it will work.

Wildfire is perfectly fine where it is. It lines up with cool downs and one of the biggest burst damage in the game. It is all in the timing for bosses that it is most efficient. Every DPS has certain abilities they need to time just right to get the most out of in bosses, MCH is no different. Especially in raiding, you are not going to be doing your dummy rotation on them. You need to know when is the best time to use it and get the most out of it. That is what truly separates the good DPS from the bad.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Wildfire is perfectly fine where it is. It lines up with cool downs and one of the biggest burst damage in the game. It is all in the timing for bosses that it is most efficient. Every DPS has certain abilities they need to time just right to get the most out of in bosses, MCH is no different. Especially in raiding, you are not going to be doing your dummy rotation on them. You need to know when is the best time to use it and get the most out of it. That is what truly separates the good DPS from the bad.

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What other dps cooldown needs around 30 seconds to do its damage?

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Originally Posted by Miah_G

What other dps cooldown needs around 30 seconds to do its damage?

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Don't you mean 15 seconds?

The only concern that I'm having with Wildfire is that it seems to be getting knocked off of bosses during Void Ark like other DoTs do when the boss is at the limit of active DoTs available. I can't confirm this because I haven't had a chance to inspect my video I took of my last run to see if it was purely visual, (ie: Icon got destroyed for some reason despite only having own effects displayed), or if it was actually getting removed and the effect/damage lost entirely. If it is getting lost, then that's a significant chunk of MCH damage that is being lost compared to the amount of damage any one DoT would be from other classes......

I intend to confirm via the video when I get home, but has anyone else noticed this as an issue?

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

The only concern that I'm having with Wildfire is that it seems to be getting knocked off of bosses during Void Ark like other DoTs do when the boss is at the limit of active DoTs available.

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This is strictly a visual error, the debuff is still on the boss. Can confirm because iron jaws works fine even when the dots aren't displayed on the boss's hp bar.

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Originally Posted by jssanderson747

This is strictly a visual error, the debuff is still on the boss. Can confirm because iron jaws works fine even when the dots aren't displayed on the boss's hp bar.

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While it's true that active dots and debuffs don't get replaced it's entirely possible to have a wildfire fail to apply once the absolute limit is reached (4 lines of dots and debuffs)

Hes right, wildfire can fail sometimes and go to waste if the boss already has the max # applyied. All u bards talking bout iron jaws and it still gets applied even if u don't see it, u r reseting ur dots not applying new ones. U can reset a dot when a mob has max number applied if u apply it before the old one falls off

This thread has nothing to do with casuals and not even machinists, really. It's 'should jobs be changed to compensate for bad players?'.

I would hope the answer is 'no'.

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Originally Posted by Kettle

This thread has nothing to do with casuals and not even machinists, really. It's 'should jobs be changed to compensate for bad players?'.

I would hope the answer is 'no'.

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What would be so bad about jobs having similar floor, ceiling and rewards, tho? Wildfire isn't some extra damage that if you pull correctly makes you top dps. It is an integrated part which when fails puts you even further behind.

All badly played jobs perform badly, all well played jobs perform well. I'd concede that a poorly played MCH is more heavily impacted than some jobs, but MCH itself really isn't as difficult as it's cracked up to be. It's practise, understanding of the job mechanics, familiarity with encounters and muscle memory. In terms of how it performs 'well' comparatively with others, the question becomes more complicated, bringing in a) who are you playing alongside and b) what content are you talking about. If we're talking 'casual content' like 4 mans, Alex normal or Void Ark; its incredibly rare I'm out damaged by anyone in any of them - unless you fluke a stellar BLM, DRG, MNK in a roulette. If we're talking savage, I'm never really that far behind (or behind at all) any of the other DPS on anything unless I've been screwed by rng (hello AS4 toilet, excessive polarities etc) or have had to provide more support turret than normal because of a 'whoops'.

And once they get there, please give that skill some graphic, it says the target is burning but visually nothing's happening at all. Make it glow with subtle flames and a fire explosion when the actual.damage goes out for example

I think there is a setting to display only your debuffs. I'm not 100% sure on that though.

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Originally Posted by Kettle

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Player of a certain skill can perform well on a job with lower skill floor and badly on a job with higher one tho.

Small tweaks to wildfire wouldn't make the job itself piece of cake, wildfire isn't just one skill, there is quite long setup before it. There are also many levels of difficulty when it comes to possible tweaks.

It could be straight dps skill, fixed dot, dps buff etc.

Letting it explode gradualy would still require certain timing, but it would be less punishing and as such bringing the floor lower.

I see both sides of this issue. I like the idea of it charging up and allowing you to trigger it within a time limit, would let you do good dps while learning a fight, nothing worse then popping ley lines or enochian at the wrong time. But i also don't want every job to be easy to master, there's a reason why i haven't touched my drg after hitting 60.

You are asking for an ability that is essential for a job being able to maximize its potential be made more casual i.e. without min/maxing in mind. So it's a tough pill for people to swallow since what you are asking is a bit of an oxymoron in its own right. With that said, I have VERY limited experience on machinist so I'm not able to weigh in on exact things pertaining to the class; however, SE has been very on top of their game for making necessary changes to classes I do play. So I feel like if there's an issue that needs to be addressed with machinist they are more than likely aware of it and working on it.

Also, not trying to be a jerk but if you are not satisfied with how a class handles don't force yourself to play it just because you have it leveled. One of the great things about this game is you can play multiple classes on the same character so you can find a class/job more suited to your playstyle (if necessary).